Praise YHWH!!! Righteous Judges still DO Exist!

[RachelleDrew]

Yes, I have read the news stories. But how are they determining and who determined that she is, in fact, 12?

Wow.

Thank goodness the court wasn't so flippant about the ages of children when Warren Jeffs was convicted of FORCING A 14 YEAR OLD TO MARRY HER COUSIN.

Come on now people, lets use some common sense here. Jeffs is a child predator and abuser, period. Time used to defend his honor is time wasted.

Back on topic, i'm glad the children were returned. I'm sure there is abuse going on in some of those homes, but I highly doubt every adult in that compound is guilty of it. It's too bad that they were treated as guilty when only a select few are or were.

On another note, the men gave a tour through the ranch to Larry King's show.I don't understand why they still have pictures of Jeffs all over the inside of their compound buildings. He admitted to his brother on camera that he lied about being the prophet. So why do they still hold him as such?

[WillowTheWhisp]

How did he mean lie about being the prophet? Who is their prophet then? Or do you mean there actually isn't one? It's so frustrating when I can only get news second hand. There is so much we don't hear about over here.

[KosherXMorg]

Wow.

Thank goodness the court wasn't so flippant about the ages of children when Warren Jeffs was convicted of FORCING A 14 YEAR OLD TO MARRY HER COUSIN.

Come on now people, lets use some common sense here. Jeffs is a child predator and abuser, period. Time used to defend his honor is time wasted.

Back on topic, i'm glad the children were returned. I'm sure there is abuse going on in some of those homes, but I highly doubt every adult in that compound is guilty of it. It's too bad that they were treated as guilty when only a select few are or were.

On another note, the men gave a tour through the ranch to Larry King's show.I don't understand why they still have pictures of Jeffs all over the inside of their compound buildings. He admitted to his brother on camera that he lied about being the prophet. So why do they still hold him as such?

Did anyone force her to commit adultery with a man older then her cousin/husband?

Did you know she admitted in her book her lover was an embittered ex-FLDS "looking to take Warren Jeff's down"? And she only left her husband and came up with this story after having this ongoing affair and speaking with her lover's friends (who were also ex-FLDS)?

You need to learn to get ALL the facts before making such rash judgments. Stay out of public office please.

Flora was never married off in the FLDS

Carolyn was NOT a child bride, she was 18

[KosherXMorg]

How did he mean lie about being the prophet? Who is their prophet then? Or do you mean there actually isn't one? It's so frustrating when I can only get news second hand. There is so much we don't hear about over here.

Apparently they have audio/video from Purgatory (the name of the jail, seriously) fo him saying he wasn't a prophet, etc...

I never thought he was, so I could care less. The still need proof of their allegations about the families at YFZ, and they haven't come up with any.

[Fiannan]

Mohammed married a girl when she was 9 years old (although did not have relations with her until she reached puberty). He was not a child molester.

[KosherXMorg]

Mohammed married a girl when she was 9 years old (although did not have relations with her until she reached puberty). He was not a child molester.

The Book of Jasher, which Joseph approved of, said that Rebecca was 10 and Isaac 40 when they married... Jasher 24: 39-45...

# And they all blessed the Lord who brought this thing about, and they gave him Rebecca, the daughter of Bethuel, for a wife for Isaac.

# And the young woman was of very comely appearance, she was a virgin, and Rebecca was ten years old in those days.

# And Bethuel and Laban and his children made a feast on that night, and Eliezer and his men came and ate and drank and rejoiced there on that night.

# And Eliezer rose up in the morning, he and the men that were with him, and he called to the whole household of Bethuel, saying, Send me away that I may go to my master; and they rose up and sent away Rebecca and her nurse Deborah, the daughter of Uz, and they gave her silver and gold, men servants and maid servants, and they blessed her.

# And they sent Eliezer away with his men; and the servants took Rebecca, and he went and returned to his master to the land of Canaan.

# And Isaac took Rebecca and she became his wife, and he brought her into the tent.

# And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebecca, the daughter of his uncle Bethuel, for a wife.

[Fiannan]

I was talking with a friend of mine who is Muslim yesterday and brought up the debates going on around the FLDS and the issue of age and marriage. He certainly did not see Mohammed as a child abuser for marrying a 9 year old. Both of us agreed that many of the PC crowd were too scared of being called "intolerant" to make such a claim even if they thought it was true though.

[RachelleDrew]

Did anyone force her to commit adultery with a man older then her cousin/husband?

Did you know she admitted in her book her lover was an embittered ex-FLDS "looking to take Warren Jeff's down"? And she only left her husband and came up with this story after having this ongoing affair and speaking with her lover's friends (who were also ex-FLDS)?

You need to learn to get ALL the facts before making such rash judgments. Stay out of public office please.

Flora was never married off in the FLDS

Carolyn was NOT a child bride, she was 18

I don't care about Flora or Carolyn's current status against the church. They are quite What I care about is what happened to get Warren Jeffs in prison in the first place.

The fact that this woman committed adultery has nothing to do with the matter at hand. If the church at any point in time told her that she needed to marry her first cousin and have sex with him then they are in the wrong. Period.

I love how if you have a negative view about the FLDS then you are obviously just bitter apostates and all allegations of abuse are automatically invalid. You are every bit as rash at your judgement making as you claim me to be.

Jeffs is not in prison for no reason. Get over it.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Is it the idea of arranged marriage which is causing a problem? There are many cultures where arranged marriage is the norm. In fact it's probably more common than our western way of finding a life partner and in the cultures where marriages are arranged (which is a world away from being the same as forced) the people see our ways as being very dangerous as you don't know who you're ending up with. Parents who arrange marriages who love their children and want the best for them don't just force them into something they don't want. The children meet and have some input too but the parents know who the proposed spouse is. There are many happy arranged marriages in the area where I live. There are also unhappy forced marriages and unhappy 'love matches'.

What I can't 'get over' though is why everyone in a community is guilty until proven innocent just because one person might be.

[Fiannan]

Jeffs is not in prison for no reason. Get over it.

Yep, marriage between first cousins is illegal in Arizona -- strange how it's not illegal in about half the states in the USA. If Jeffs had done this in one of those states that would not be against the law.

And in many some states a 14 year old getting married to a 22 year old (as in the case where Jeffs got busted on) would be legal.

Laws and morality don't always fit. You can legally have an abortion in the USA -- is that legal? In many states a 14 year old getting an abortion without parental permission is legal but if a hair dresser pierces that 14 year old's ears without parental permission he or she is violating the law. Makes sense, doesn't it?

[Bookmeister]

At this point, the only thing that CPS can do is to follow up with each individual child to determine if any abuse has occured. I think that the institutional mindset of CPS will continue to influence CPS actions; after all, the vast majority of CPS case workers are the products of extremely liberal educational programs. This means (and obviously this is all just my opinion, and not necessarily that of the sponsors or station) that they are predisposed to see more conservative, and especially religious, systems as having a negative influence on young children.

On the other hand, CPS is often in the situation of being between a rock and a hard place. If they don't act to protect a child, and something happens, they get hammered. If they take some action, and it turns out the child was never in danger, they get hammered. This sort of constant stress and concern will develop an "US versus Them" culture within CPS (and within any sort of insular group such as police departments, military organizations, and so forth).

As for the concerns expressed that the FLDS people would somehow be required to "give up" their beliefs, I can't imagine any judge would order that someone change their religion or religious beliefs...the public outcry would be horrendous and such an order would be overturned within hours. This doesn't mean that CPS wouldn't try to influence what parents would be allowed to teach their children, but the effort would be a lot more subtle.

Or, I could just be full of hot air...LOL.

[LegendadryPerc]

but wasn't it the "culture and belief system" that was claimed to be the "abuse" they had to save all the children from? Yes, there was public outcry, but that didn't take hours, that took months! I heard more than one person comment (not necisarily on here) that some beliefs are so bad, they shouldn't be protected, and that what CPS did was OK - reminds me of CPS constantly saying that they didn't follow all the laws, but this was such a special case, that they couldn't, so it was OK.

I can only hope that it was a misunderstanding and misinformation that made it take so long for an appeals court to say a belief in and of itself could not be classified as "abuse" by our laws. With all the rumors about force and abuse even to babies, Warren Jeffs conviction, etc., maybe people really thought that CPS had taken the kids away because of evidence pointing to those things - not evidence pointing to a belief.

If it isn't still about a belief, and they aren't considered one household anymore, why are all the families still being investigated - legally forced to subject themselves to CPS involvement - what other "abuse" do they even have the slightest evidence that it might be going on?

[KosherXMorg]

Yep, marriage between first cousins is illegal in Arizona -- strange how it's not illegal in about half the states in the USA. If Jeffs had done this in one of those states that would not be against the law.

And in many some states a 14 year old getting married to a 22 year old (as in the case where Jeffs got busted on) would be legal.

Laws and morality don't always fit. You can legally have an abortion in the USA -- is that legal? In many states a 14 year old getting an abortion without parental permission is legal but if a hair dresser pierces that 14 year old's ears without parental permission he or she is violating the law. Makes sense, doesn't it?

He was actually 19 when Elissa married him, not 22.

[lisajo]

A relative confermed the ages of the girls when the pictures were taken, ages 12 and 13, she lived with these girls at one time till she escaped the compound, she has been a regular on CNN

[WillowTheWhisp]

He was actually 19 when Elissa married him, not 22.

So at 19 he married a teenage girl? Not 'at 50 he married a 14 year old'? I'm getting more and more confused by all the contradictory information being given.

If adult men are having sex with underage girls then that is wrong. I don't disagree with that. It's illegal and it's wrong, just as it's wrong when all the hundreds of none FLDS people do it. However that doesn't make it any more right to have removed all the FLDS children from their parents and more than it would be right to remove all Baptist children from their families if one Baptist teenage girl gets pregnant.

[KosherXMorg]

A relative confermed the ages of the girls when the pictures were taken, ages 12 and 13, she lived with these girls at one time till she escaped the compound, she has been a regular on CNN

Hmmmmm, would that be Carolyn Jessop? Shocker!

[KosherXMorg]

So at 19 he married a teenage girl? Not 'at 50 he married a 14 year old'? I'm getting more and more confused by all the contradictory information being given.

If adult men are having sex with underage girls then that is wrong. I don't disagree with that. It's illegal and it's wrong, just as it's wrong when all the hundreds of none FLDS people do it. However that doesn't make it any more right to have removed all the FLDS children from their parents and more than it would be right to remove all Baptist children from their families if one Baptist teenage girl gets pregnant.

At least you intellectually honest enough to try and sort through all the information and misinformation out there. Many just want to condemn.

Most likely Elissa approached her step-father Fred Jessop, who from all accounts I've heard of him was a very gentle kind man (even the mighty Flora Jessop loved him and was concerned when he went, as she says, "Missing") who would've never forced his wives children (they were all step children because Fred couldn't have children) to marry, after she said she was ready to be married they approached Warren Jeff's. But the one thing happened she didn't count on, she was told to marry the one geeky cousin she never liked (which she admitted in sworn testimony and in her book she said she thought he was "boorish"). When she committed adultery with an ex-FLDS man twice her age with a chip on his shoulder, she saw her chance to get out and has been used as a pawn for FLDS apostates since.

[Moksha]

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

The second item is the seeming expendibility of the young men. Mainstream LDS treasure their young men and could not imagine ejecting them to a life of street hustling in Las Vegas.

[KosherXMorg]

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

The second item is the seeming expendibility of the young men. Mainstream LDS treasure their young men and could not imagine ejecting them to a life of street hustling in Las Vegas.

Many of the men who had their families reassigned and were told to "repent from a distance", where guilty of the things that the FLDS are being accused of now. Have you noticed that most of the men have never raised a fuss, and many who have been found and interviewed won't say why they were kicked out? Either way the wives have the agency to stay with the man or be reassigned, and most go with the reassignment. Ever wonder why?

[KosherXMorg]

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

The second item is the seeming expendibility of the young men. Mainstream LDS treasure their young men and could not imagine ejecting them to a life of street hustling in Las Vegas.

And the "Lost Boys" story is a myth as I have pointed out before, even posting an article by an EX-FLDS young man disputing the story.

[Moksha]

Of course, some of these imaginary Lost Boys did win a real settlement against the FLDS.

Partial settlement of suit involving FLDS: Lost boys win land, cash

The Salt Lake Tribune, USA

Apr. 6, 2007

Brooke Adams

Salt Lake Tribune Home Page - Salt Lake Tribune

Seven young men have partially settled lawsuits that led to the state’s takeover of a property trust once overseen by polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs.

The agreement resolves claims against the United Effort Plan Trust, which has been under court oversight since May 2005, in a deal that includes land, an assistance fund and attorney fees.

[KosherXMorg]

Of course, some of these imaginary Lost Boys did win a real settlement against the FLDS.

Yes, 7, which is talked about in the article about the Lost Boys from the EX-FLDS member I posted. Where are the hundreds upon hundreds of others supposedly kicked out that we hear about all the time??? 7? Big Deal.

It is a shame the LDS members in an effort to distance themselves from the very practices their prophets engaged in have become the deaf-eared persecutors.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I've just been reading a news item which includes psychiatric report on the effect this will have had on the children. It's heartbreaking, and even so there are people who say flippant things like "well at least they got to play outside and ride bikes" which shows the ignorance of the life the children did lead on the ranch. They were not imprisoned indoors there!

I've also noted the comparison with the previously mentioned "Short Creek" raid in the 50s where the children were actually allowed to stay with their siblings and mothers unlike this recent situation. Those children were badly effected in spite of that so how much worse is the effect going to be of having been torn away from anyone and everyone they love?

[Elphaba]

And the "Lost Boys" story is a myth as I have pointed out before, even posting an article by an EX-FLDS young man disputing the story.

Have you lived within the FLDS community? Where or from whom do you get your information?

Elphaba

[Jenamarie]

I've just been reading a news item which includes psychiatric report on the effect this will have had on the children. It's heartbreaking, and even so there are people who say flippant things like "well at least they got to play outside and ride bikes" which shows the ignorance of the life the children did lead on the ranch. They were not imprisoned indoors there!

I've also noted the comparison with the previously mentioned "Short Creek" raid in the 50s where the children were actually allowed to stay with their siblings and mothers unlike this recent situation. Those children were badly effected in spite of that so how much worse is the effect going to be of having been torn away from anyone and everyone they love?

Could you post a link to this? I'd be interested in reading it.