Do murderers have a chance for redemption in the spirit world?

[Vanhin]

Here is a classic illustration that we use that might help as well.

Vanhin

[skalenfehl]

Reminds me of the good ol' missionary days. Ah yes...

[nannysherri]

Vanhin, yes reminds me of Missionary Days.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps the greater question...do murderers have a chance for repentance, forgiveness, and blessing in our mortal existence? I've heard some quote Sacred Works that seem to say no. Yet, I'm quite convinced the answer is yes--even if that blessing takes place during a lifetime of prison.

[Vanhin]

Perhaps the greater question...do murderers have a chance for repentance, forgiveness, and blessing in our mortal existence? I've heard some quote Sacred Works that seem to say no. Yet, I'm quite convinced the answer is yes--even if that blessing takes place during a lifetime of prison.

Yes, at least what I have said applies to any time before our resurrection and final judgement. In fact, repentance in mortality for any sin is preferred; perhaps because of the difficulty that repenting fully without a body poses. That's why the message of the prophets of all dispensations has always been, "Repent! for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Take a sex offender, for instance. If they die without repenting of their sins, how hard is it going to be to repent in the spirit world without a body? Repentance requires that we confess our sins to God, and forsake them. This means that we don't do the sin any more, and at least in mortality we can demonstrate to God that we have truly forsaken the sin. The same would apply to murderers.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Flyonthewall]

Part of the repentance process is going to Outer Darkness. Outer Darkness or ‘Hell’ as it is used in Section 76, is for those that 1. Don’t repent, or 2. Have to suffer themselves.

I didn’t see anything specific about Murders (which I’m pretty sure is there) but to even make it to the telestial kingdom (the lowest) they go through outer darkness to suffer, and then come forth in the telestial. The only ones that STAY in outer darkness are sons of Perdition.

But even with all of that we would have to compare the TYPE of murder it was. (and are we talking and LDS faithful member, or somebody that didn't know the gospel) I’m guessing some would even have a chance to go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

There is a difference between the "hell" one suffers in spirit prison for unrepented sins, and the "hell" that is outer darkness.

As you mentioned, outer darkness is a permanent place, but it is also without any light/glory. Spirit Prison is still a place of light, because of the missionary work that will be going on there.

Outer darkness is a destination, Spirit Prison is a temporary holding place.

[MormonGirl02]

I hope it wasn't me that said that. Please clarify.

On a side note, let's see if I can do something a little different:

Pre-mortal life>Mortal life>Death (Paradise or Spirit Prison/Hell)>Resurrection>Judgment>Kingdoms of glory or Perdition/Outer Darkness. The End.

That is sort of a linear visual. There are people who have been in Spirit Prison since the time of Adam who will never accept the gospel or the testimony of Christ (see my very first post quoting lds.org as it explains everything very clearly). There are also people who haven't been born yet and are still in their pre-mortal state. Regardless, everyone will have their mortal probation and in the Spirit World be sent to their "temporary residence" until the resurrection. That temporary residence is either Paradise or Prison, which is also called Hell. Perdition is what happens after the final resurrection and judgment.

No, it wasn't you. It was tubaloth that confused me. See his quote below:

Part of the repentance process is going to Outer Darkness. Outer Darkness or ‘Hell’ as it is used in Section 76, is for those that 1. Don’t repent, or 2. Have to suffer themselves.

[bert10]

Hi Tubaloth...

Can I make one correction....concerning the Outer Darkness...

It is the final state of them who cannot be renewed unto repentance...It is reserved for the children of the kingdom. And it is also mentioned in Jude...

Matthew 8:12 - But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jude 1:13 - Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Luke 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The outer darkness is where the Light of Christ is not. We are all children of the Light. The very worst thing that can happen to one of these is to be cast off to where they cannot have access to the Light of Christ.

if you remember David did receive this promise from God after he had Uriah killed.

Psalms 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 16:11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Not all Murderers can be renewed unto repentance........

Peace be unto you

bert10

First, your question doesn’t make complete sense. Mostly “go to one of the heavenly kingdoms when in the Spirit World” you don’t go to one of this kingdoms while you are IN the spirit world, but more AFTER the spirit world.

Lets break it down.

Yes they do get the chance to repent, but the requirement to repent of murder is pretty big.

Part of the repentance process is going to Outer Darkness. Outer Darkness or ‘Hell’ as it is used in Section 76, is for those that 1. Don’t repent, or 2. Have to suffer themselves.

I didn’t see anything specific about Murders (which I’m pretty sure is there) but to even make it to the telestial kingdom (the lowest) they go through outer darkness to suffer, and then come forth in the telestial. The only ones that STAY in outer darkness are sons of Perdition.

But even with all of that we would have to compare the TYPE of murder it was. (and are we talking and LDS faithful member, or somebody that didn't know the gospel) I’m guessing some would even have a chance to go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

But there is no way from my reading of the scriptures for a murder to make it to the celestial kingdom.

WOW! Jesus Covers Sins I haven’t even done! And even if I do really bad ones (like Murder) he covers those and I’m saved?

That isn’t the view of the LDS doctrine, but that’s nice that is how you view it.

[Justice]

Hi everyone. Do murderers get a chance to repent of their sins and go to one of the heavenly kingdoms when in the Spirit World or are they automatically condemned to Outer Darkness? Also, what if the murderer repents during this life?

I think what you are talking about is the unpardonable sin, right?

If a person has committed the unpardonable sin they know it because it is a choice.

There are many ways of looking at it. The unpardonable sin is when you look at light and truth in the face and don't want to be part of it. This person will never repent of his sins.

If a sin is repented for, then it can be forgiven... it doesn't matter what it is.

[Islander]

D&C 87 discusses the subject. As far as this life, there is no forgiveness for murder or blaspheming against the Holy Ghost. God will forgive whom He will but we are commanded to forgive ALL. If you have been convicted of murder and are free after x number of years baptism can not be denied if the person expreses repentance and desires it. But it requires intervention from the First Presidency.

What happens after that it best left to the Council on high. I think it is best to concentrate on the here and now and avoid shooting beyond the mark. just a thought.

[skalenfehl]

removed

For debate's sake, let's assume that there is a God and that Jesus Christ did need to die to make an infinite and final atonement for our sins. Christ took upon himself this responsibility because we could NOT make that endless atonement for ourselves. He "ransomed" us. He "purchased" our sins with His blood. Now if all this is true and we choose to take responsibility for ourselves instead of look to Him, then we will indeed be given that "personal responsibility." We will suffer even as He suffered, who descended below all man, suffering the pains of sin and death for everyone.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-18

Doctrine and Covenants 122:7-8

This will occur while in Spirit Prison, hence the term Hell until we make that restitution and can inherit our just reward after the resurrection.

[ampat777]

This discussion is as old as the world But it´s still interesting to discuss about what happened with the very bad guys like Hitler, Stalin and all of the mass murders. It´s a tough question and I even have seen missionaries having a hard time to explain.

[Still_Small_Voice]

WOW! Jesus Covers Sins I haven’t even done! And even if I do really bad ones (like Murder) he covers those and I’m saved? That isn’t the view of the LDS doctrine, but that’s nice that is how you view it.

I believe what you have stated is partially true. Christ's atonement will cover all a faithful disciple's sins if, and I repeat if, they are faithful and endure to the end.

Concerning the sin of murder (not killing in self-defense which can be justifiable) I don't know what the specifications are for forgiveness.

[WANDERER]

quotes:

So here is the deal. I believe that regardless of what is in a person’s past – if they want to be a saint, do what saints do and be responsible as a saint is responsible – they belong in heaven. I also believe that regardless of what is in a person’s past – if they do not want to be good – making fun of anyone that is good for any reason – they do not belong in heaven. But more than anything – if anyone wants a G-d and a kingdom where they are taken care of; do not have to lift a finger for their own salvation (or anyone else’s) then Satan and Hell is their perfect match.

And yes – it is a choice – and from the posting – many have made their choice.

The Traveler

*sighs*

[WANDERER]

Quote: There are people who have been in Spirit Prison since the time of Adam

The description of that, with a great gulf separating, and the release of the people from the Bosom of Abraham...sounds different to Spirit Prison.

[skalenfehl]

There are also people who have been in Paradise since the time of Adam.

[tubaloth]

I don’t even know where to start….

Am I the only one that knows this?

The confusion (if there is any) is more the term Hell. I guess Elder McConkie Explains this the best.

That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)

Who will go to hell? This query is abundantly answered in the scriptures. Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish — those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers (D. & C. 76:103), false swearers, "those that oppress the hireling in his wages," the proud, "and all that do wickedly." (Mal. 3; 4; 2 Ne. 9:27-39; 26:10.)

(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 350.)

Yes Spirit prison is called Hell, and outer darkness is called Hell.

After a person is in spirit prison and still choose NOT to repent, (and I guess in the case we are talking about murders) they go to Telestial Kingdom. These are the ones spoken of in Section 19.

(Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-19.)

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Thinking about this on a deeper level didn’t make sense me! The reason is because I have always been taught I can’t atone for my own sins! That’s why I needed Christ! So how could I suffer! Wouldn’t that satisfy the demands of Justice and thus gain the Celestial Kingdom. The answer I came up with is NO! Those going to the Telestial Kingdom are those that end up paying for there own sins. Where do they do this? In Outer Darkness (not in the spirit world). After they have paid the price for there sins those going to the telestial kingdom gain that glory. The sons of Perditions stay in outer darkness forever.

The key I came up with is that these (in the telestial Kingdom) aren’t paying the price of a Celestial Law, but paying the price to satisfy the demands for a Telestial Law (which I assume we can pay for). I can’t pay the price of a Celestial Law.

The time when they are sent into outer darkness is after the spirit world, after others have come and taught the gospel to them. After judgment has been placed on them for the terrestrial Kingdom, they are sent to suffer.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-85.)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

The Hell spoken of here isn’t Spirit prison, its outer darkness; it’s for those that are NOT sons of perdition. They suffer there until the end of the Millennium.

[WANDERER]

I didn't understand what Elder McConkie was saying there when I came across it earlier. Thanks for that.

[skalenfehl]

removed

We cannot call good evil and evil good. What God has declared is truth. So if someone believes it is honorable while God has declared it an abomination, we can do the math. Perhaps reassessing one's beliefs is in order. Because one does not believe in God does not mean He does not exist. Is one willing to bet his or her eternal life on it? Is one so sure? If one's joy in this life is to help make the world a better place through one's own personal beliefs, then one will receive one's gratification/joy for a short season. When this life is over then comes eternity and one's just reward. We will be judged by God's laws and not our own. We should come unto Christ for only through His mercy and Atonement can we escape justice for our fallen state!

[Guest Username-Removed]

When I was on my mission there was a stake president that said he took part in a murder - and said it at stake conference! I admit, I did a double take! Looking back, I think he was simply trying to prove a point - that the Jesus Christ lives!

On a side note, I also met an inactive person who tried to confess to me that he/she also took part in a murder.

Ok, it was a wierd mission! In more ways than one!

[skalenfehl]

removed

Riiight. You are not being held here and tortured to believe something that isn't true.

[Islander]

What about someone who used to believe in God but no longer does for what they feel are good reasons, who tries their best to live honourably, and they do things God has clearly said are abominable because they now believe these are honourable things that help make the world a better place?

Friend, one can be absolutely convinced that we can master the laws of gravity. That our motives, attitudes and behavior are altruistic in nature and well intended. If a person jumps off a building and we intend to save them by jumping after them, all the good intentions in the world will not spare you the consequences. Deciding to ignore the word of God, for whatever reasons, has eternal consequences. We can chose to ignore the law but are not free to decide on the outcome.

God does not change. We are the ones that adopt ideas, philosophies and a frame of reference that is at times contrary to the commandments of God. Is NEVER God whom is on the wrong side of the issue. We placed ourselves there. We want what we want, and we are, at times, willing to defy God to get it. I hope you can find the humility it takes to turn back off the road you have taken. He loves you and is waiting for you with open arms regardless of what may have transpired that took you away from Him. My prayers go out to you.

[skalenfehl]

The difference is that there indeed are four lights. God knows there are four lights and is not trying to make you see five lights, and He has given you the freedom to choose to say there are four lights.

Star Trek aside, I understand your perspective, however, I also know that God is a loving God. He is our loving Father in Heaven who has given us life and the opportunity to have eternal joy and has provided a way for us to obtain it. It is only up to us to choose it or not.

[Flyonthewall]

Except that there will be no force/coersion/bullying or anything like it. You will choose your own reward by your own choices. God will let you know what the rewards are and the requirements for them. You pick your reward with your willingness to follow the rules associated with it.

[Vanhin]

Your God informs us that if I don't believe what he says and do what he wants, I'm going to suffer for it, forever. What's the difference? Either way is trying to use fear to bully me into something I don't agree with.

He's not trying to bully you. He's trying to warn you, because he knows all things. He knows the way to true happiness. That way is the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's you own choice to follow the way or not, and as much as it pains Father to see us choose unwisely, he will not meddle with your agency.

I tell my children all the time that if they keep running around carelessly in the house, someone is going to get hurt. I'm not trying to be a bully, or to hurt them in any way. I've been hurt that way before, and I know it can happen, but they usually think "...daddy is just being mean and he doesn't want us to have fun." Guess what happens eventually if they continue? I'll tell you what happens, daddy becomes a flippin' prophet!

God knows that there is spiritual and temporal safety in keeping the commandments, and he informs us of his commandment by the voice of his prophets. We would be wise to heed the teachings of the prophets for our own eternal safety, or salvation. If we persist in our defiance of the counsel of God, we will reap the natural consiquences of our sins.

Regards,

Vanhin