when you prayed over the BoM...

[Guest tomk]

"For since the creation of the world, his invisiable attritubutes have been clearly seen through what has been made so they are without excuse." Romans..

Would you consider this worldy evidence.to look at creation??

Much of what you will experience as you approach God will seem to be full of paradox.

Yes. Understanding God is to be found in a blade of grass...not in huge monuments. God works His miracles by small means -- which to the world appears to be foolishness. This is why He does not offer DNA evidence or archeaology to prove the Book of Mormon. Because such is not desired nor needed to know it is true.

When you look around you, be filled with awe and wonder and gratitude.

From Luke 12:

24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

All we can "give" God is our broken heart and contrite spirit -- our willingness. And even in this we must plead for Him to soften our hearts!!!!

[VisionOfLehi]

Jenamarie: What source can you site for me, aside from the Bible, that Christ actually walked the earth? What PROOF is there?

[lostnfound]

Why would you look at the Bible from a historical perspective?

How is using the HISTORY a basis for FAITH?

There is no objective evidence that Christ lived on Earth.

Is your faith in the wars and locations in the Scriptures, or the divinity of Christ?

Build your house upon the rock solid foundation of the Lord, not history and science.

Great question lehi...

The bible has 66 books written over 2,000 years apart in 3 different languages...over 300 prophecies all pertaining to the events of Jesus...The most amazing historical accurate book on the planet and it does lead you to a Faith beyond measure of who Jesus was and is and God's work in sustaining His Word!

The bible tells us "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"...so knowing that God's word is true and can be trusted is a big deal!

As far as his divinity goes..hmm well evidence for the ressurection, evidence for Noah's flood, evidence for the creation of mankind, evidence in miracles then and today, evidence in creation alone accounts to his divinity... yes even in that there is objective evidence. Who is the author for history and science??? God is..and both can be found all throughout the bible. These are not two seperate ideas that are secular in thought. If history was not important. Then God never needed to write it down. Historical evidence is a big deal..and to the unbelieving world it is a witness to who Jesus Christ is.

[Jenamarie]

But, like the people who read the BoM and don't recieve a witness of it's truthfulness, what of the people who look at all the evidence supporting the Bible, and see it as insufficient evidence of Jesus being the Christ? What if they only see it as evidence that there were once these people called Jews who had a rather peculiar religion, and did a lot of great and horrible things in the name of it?

What is the difference between those who read the Bible and see proof of God, and those who read the Bible and simply see a book of history about members of a particular religion and their beliefs?

[lostnfound]

Jenamarie: What source can you site for me, aside from the Bible, that Christ actually walked the earth? What PROOF is there?

sources outside of bible..lets name a few..but there are many

Thallus

Pliny the younger

Tacitus

Marc Bar-serapion

phlegon

lucean of samosata

josephes

The toedot yeshu

many more..from a historical record of those that believe the bible is true or not..Jesus existed.

[VisionOfLehi]

If you can give me quotes, I'd appreciate it. I'm skeptical as to whether they reported Christ in a manner different than Scripture, or were still part of "Holy Texts"

Or, if they were simply referencing other documents.

[lostnfound]

Much of what you will experience as you approach God will seem to be full of paradox.

Yes. Understanding God is to be found in a blade of grass...not in huge monuments. God works His miracles by small means -- which to the world appears to be foolishness. This is why He does not offer DNA evidence or archeaology to prove the Book of Mormon. Because such is not desired nor needed to know it is true.

When you look around you, be filled with awe and wonder and gratitude.

From Luke 12:

24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

All we can "give" God is our broken heart and contrite spirit -- our willingness. And even in this we must plead for Him to soften our hearts!!!!

i agree tomk.there is a place to come to christ in a broken and contrite spirit .except..archeology does in fact help the validity of the bible..so i would also think that if the two books have the same author..then there would be more then an subjective feeling to go by for Bom? Which is what promted by first question.how to know any book is true or not? Even those that believe in the islam bible..believe with all their heart and soul its true. I believe they have earnestly sought out its contents and even have prayed over it. For me if I want to believe the Bom is true or not..I would tell any christian well read it..pray before reading asking God to reveal to you truth and line the thing up with the bible...but i would start with the bible as all truth and anthing else that claims to be another testamont must be lined up with God's word. I would never tell someone however to pray over bible to see if its' true or not. How then could I respond when they said they prayed over it and they felt it was false?

[VisionOfLehi]

It's all about intent, as stated earlier.

If you pray about the Bible, do you just want to know if it's true or not, or do you want affirmation of your desire and plan to follow its teachings if it is true? Or, do you desire it to be true, but not want to do the work involved with adhering to its tenants?

Ask, and ye shall receive.

Would you counsel them against that?

[Hemidakota]

But, like the people who read the BoM and don't recieve a witness of it's truthfulness, what of the people who look at all the evidence supporting the Bible, and see it as insufficient evidence of Jesus being the Christ? What if they only see it as evidence that there were once these people called Jews who had a rather peculiar religion, and did a lot of great and horrible things in the name of it?

What is the difference between those who read the Bible and see proof of God, and those who read the Bible and simply see a book of history about members of a particular religion and their beliefs?

This is why we should first make it a priority and follow the same example of what the prophet did as a boy when approaching the Godhead in asking those applicable questions. The driving force of our testimony should not reside on a single book at first. This comes later as we spiritually mature in the "Truth and Light."

[Hemidakota]

i agree tomk.there is a place to come to christ in a broken and contrite spirit .except..archeology does in fact help the validity of the bible..so i would also think that if the two books have the same author..then there would be more then an subjective feeling to go by for Bom? Which is what promted by first question.how to know any book is true or not? Even those that believe in the islam bible..believe with all their heart and soul its true. I believe they have earnestly sought out its contents and even have prayed over it. For me if I want to believe the Bom is true or not..I would tell any christian well read it..pray before reading asking God to reveal to you truth and line the thing up with the bible...but i would start with the bible as all truth and anthing else that claims to be another testamont must be lined up with God's word. I would never tell someone however to pray over bible to see if its' true or not. How then could I respond when they said they prayed over it and they felt it was false?

I found that Muslim I had met, do not always pray over the book itself but follow those claimed clergies. Not saying all clergies are bad but a few radicals can spoil the broth. As I found most have not even read the [book] material thoroughly to have a meaningful understanding of the contents.

[lostnfound]

I found that Muslim I had met, do not always pray over the book itself but follow those claimed clergies. Not saying all clergies are bad but a few radicals can spoil the broth. As I found most have not even read the [book] material thoroughly to have a meaningful understanding of the contents.

your right..and that goes for most reglions of the world.

but back to my orginal question..as I am not even going down the path of wether people accept the gospel message or not..but it was suggested by some that we would pray over the bom to see if it's content are true. So, that is what i was exploring for now.

[Hemidakota]

Yes, you can do that and receive a witness thereof. I had to go back after reading the D&C to gain a spirit about the people of the BOM.

[lostnfound]

This is why we should first make it a priority and follow the same example of what the prophet did as a boy when approaching the Godhead in asking those applicable questions. The driving force of our testimony should not reside on a single book at first. This comes later as we spiritually mature in the "Truth and Light."

The driving force of our faith starts with God's word..the bible. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. This would make a great another thread..where does truth come from?

[lostnfound]

Yes, you can do that and receive a witness thereof. I had to go back after reading the D&C to gain a spirit about the people of the BOM.

what do you mean gain a spirit? Did a spirit show up? or do you mean a good feeling?

[Jenamarie]

The driving force of our faith starts with God's word..the bible. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. This would make a great another thread..where does truth come from?

God. It's as simple as that.

[lostnfound]

If you can give me quotes, I'd appreciate it. I'm skeptical as to whether they reported Christ in a manner different than Scripture, or were still part of "Holy Texts"

Or, if they were simply referencing other documents.

i will give you quotes later today..but you can just google any of those guys..and learn about what they said...joshepus especially very famous..and look at his work jewish antiuity...they acknowledge there was indeed a Jesus. If you are looking for evidence of things outside of bible to know whether jesus existed..you can find it there is plenty out there of people talking about him good and bad..important thing is they know he existed.

You could do the same thing with Joseph Smith's life? you could look at history to know he existed and trace his family tree etc...just curious are you skeptical as to whether or not jesus existed?

[Jenamarie]

i will give you quotes later today..but you can just google any of those guys..and learn about what they said...joshepus especially very famous..and look at his work jewish antiuity...they acknowledge there was indeed a Jesus. If you are looking for evidence of things outside of bible to know whether jesus existed..you can find it there is plenty out there of people talking about him good and bad..important thing is they know he existed.

You could do the same thing with Joseph Smith's life? you could look at history to know he existed and trace his family tree etc...just curious are you skeptical as to whether or not jesus existed?

I don't believe VofL has any doubts that Jesus existed. I think what he's trying to do is pointing out the flaws of relying on the knowledge of men to "prove" Jesus Christ. There is some evidence that Jesus really walked the earth, but what there isn't physical evidence of is His Divine Sonship. There are a lot of religious writings that Christianity doesn't except as true. The Greek myths have been passed down from generation to generation for a few thousand years, but just because a lot of ancient people believe those Gods existed, doesn't mean they actually did, or that they actually performed the miracles their believers attributed to them.

Several people wrote about Joseph Smith being a prophet. Just because these people wrote it, would you say "well then, that must be the truth!" What is it about those ancient writters that makes you trust their word over the word of people who say that Jesus was nothing more than a man? What is it that makes you automatically trust the Bible? (not saying that you shouldn't, but just wondering why you keep seeking the knowlege of men to confirm your faith in the Bible, when so often mankind is wrong).

ETA: I just want to clarify that I am not ragging on the Bible in *any* way. What I'm trying to point out is that the Bible points to Truth, but that in order for someone to SEE that truth, they have to have a Witness of the Spirit. To see the Bible as Truth simply because mankind says it is is shaky ground at best. To see the Bible as Truth because the Holy Spirit Witnessed it to you is a more sure foundation.

[Hemidakota]

The driving force of our faith starts with God's word..the bible. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. This would make a great another thread..where does truth come from?

It starts from desire, then hope, and cometh faith. Whether that tidbit of knowledge came from your parents, a book, or just want to know for yourself.

[Hemidakota]

what do you mean gain a spirit? Did a spirit show up? or do you mean a good feeling?

Holy Ghost...you start with feelings and eventually, a voice that you will recognize.

[Hemidakota]

what do you mean gain a spirit? Did a spirit show up? or do you mean a good feeling?

Didn't read it enough to understand on the exactness of your question.....my answer to this is the same as Paul received it.

[lostnfound]

I don't believe VofL has any doubts that Jesus existed. I think what he's trying to do is pointing out the flaws of relying on the knowledge of men to "prove" Jesus Christ. There is some evidence that Jesus really walked the earth, but what there isn't physical evidence of is His Divine Sonship. There are a lot of religious writings that Christianity doesn't except as true. The Greek myths have been passed down from generation to generation for a few thousand years, but just because a lot of ancient people believe those Gods existed, doesn't mean they actually did, or that they actually performed the miracles their believers attributed to them.

Several people wrote about Joseph Smith being a prophet. Just because these people wrote it, would you say "well then, that must be the truth!" What is it about those ancient writters that makes you trust their word over the word of people who say that Jesus was nothing more than a man? What is it that makes you automatically trust the Bible? (not saying that you shouldn't, but just wondering why you keep seeking the knowlege of men to confirm your faith in the Bible, when so often mankind is wrong).

ETA: I just want to clarify that I am not ragging on the Bible in *any* way. What I'm trying to point out is that the Bible points to Truth, but that in order for someone to SEE that truth, they have to have a Witness of the Spirit. To see the Bible as Truth simply because mankind says it is is shaky ground at best. To see the Bible as Truth because the Holy Spirit Witnessed it to you is a more sure foundation.

hmm I think you might misunderstand me. I don't believe the bible is the knowledge of men. He wanted proof outside of bible so i gave it to him. but all you have to do is look at the validity of the bible using the bible by itself. 300 prophesies are there pertaining to jesus alone and each one was fulfilled perfectly! You should never seek the knowledge of men to proof to the bible. The bible is the inspired word of God. However prophecy evidence, historical evidence..etc..is there in objectivity to put your faith in its teachings. There is no reason to pray to see if it's true or not. Should you pray to seek God's face ..yes..should you pray that God reveals to you truth in his word ..yes..but to trust our feelings on the things goes against what the bible tells us. We can't trust our heart. it is wicked.

Let me ask it another way..Why do you guys believe the bible is true if you don't pray about the bible and only the Bom??

[Hemidakota]

When believe in something that we do not ask the Godhead for any validity, we use FAITH. It is the reliance on the testimonies of others that we believe in the book. Now, I had prayed over specific people in the book for further clarity or wanted a personal testimony for myself, that itself is a sustaining testimony that covers the whole book.

[skalenfehl]

History is a biased thing, often written by the powerful, the victorious or at least the literate and can easily be changed and manipulated for evil purposes. Indeed our hearts are not perfect nor are we and we can easily be deceived but we have the capacity to be guided by a more powerful source. What can be more powerful that God?

Yes, history paints pictures of Christ, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, even Attila the Hun and Abraham Lincoln. But in matters of truth, the source of all truth is God and it is through the Holy Ghost, who answers us only in truth, that we will know the truth of all things. This is why missionaries challenge us to pray and ask the author of truth. But we must also prepare ourselves to become vessels of truth by doing everything we can to be worthy of God's answer and to be prepared to act upon that truth. That is the key and the great test. For God will not answer us if we are not ready to live according to that answer. It would only bring condemnation upon our soul.

[Hemidakota]

Lostnfound, now my question to you, what is your main desire?

[lostnfound]

hmm I think you might misunderstand me. I don't believe the bible is the knowledge of men. He wanted proof outside of bible so i gave it to him. but all you have to do is look at the validity of the bible using the bible by itself. 300 prophesies are there pertaining to jesus alone and each one was fulfilled perfectly! You should never seek the knowledge of men to proof to the bible. The bible is the inspired word of God. However prophecy evidence, historical evidence..etc..is there in objectivity to put your faith in its teachings. There is no reason to pray to see if it's true or not. Should you pray to seek God's face ..yes..should you pray that God reveals to you truth in his word ..yes..but to trust our feelings on the things goes against what the bible tells us. We can't trust our heart. it is wicked.

Let me ask it another way..Why do you guys believe the bible is true if you don't pray about the bible and only the Bom??

ohh wait i just reread your post again jena. i think we might be talking about two different things. I started out just wanting an answer on how we know bom is true or bible is true. I think you went further and wanted to go into how we know jesus is Lord. I was trying to stay on topic of just the facts of the bible. Jesus existed. not whether or not you call him a good man or lord or not..just did the facts of the bible happen or not? Did the events in bom happen or not? Lds says we should pray to see that the events actually happened. With the bible there is not need for this. Do you understand what i am saying or am I being confusing.