Can feminist and Mormon co-exist?

[ruthiechan]

I agree with Xzain - this discussion is pointless unless we all use a common definition of "feminist."

Seriously.

Which one are we talking about?

Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Misshalfway]

While you all are deciding what defn to use.....I thought I would add that -isms like this one bother me a bit. So men have dominated women for all time. So what is the goal of feminism? To flip it around? To dominate the men? Kinda like the black man dominating the white. What good does such a pursuit really accomplish? Sometimes I wish we were all children-ists -- fighting for the betterment of children.

Why aren't we humanists? Fighting for the rights and opportunities for all. I suppose feminism does some good. There is no doubt that wrongs need to be made right and attitudes still need some work. And thank goodness there were women who didn't play nice and stay 'in their place'. I greatly benefit from their sacrifices. But, I guess I would like to see less of the putting something or someone down to raise the interests of one group over another-- like that would really make things better for all. I guess I thought that was was the USA was all about. Seems our behaviors don't match our ideals all of the time.

[WANDERER]

I don't think that the stereotypical definition of a feminist really defines the spectrum of political views amongst women in regards to voting on different issues or even advocating for women's rights. Some are prolife, some are prochoice, some advocate the rights of Stay At Home Mums and are pro-family, and some are very concerned about adequate childcare and workplace family friendly environments and so on. Some have spent a good deal of time advocating for maternity leave for fathers.

Vive la difference. Isn't it time we got past seeing certain things as women's issues and realised that they are community and social issues?

Edited June 10, 2008 by WANDERER

[Misshalfway]

i Think That The Stereotypical Definition Of A Feminist Really Defines The Spectrum Of Political Views Amongst Women In Regards To Voting On Different Issues Or Even Advocating For Women's Rights. Some Are Prolife, Some Are Prochoice, Some Advocate The Rights Of Stay At Home Mums And Are Pro-family, And Some Are Very Concerned About Adequate Childcare And Workplace Family Friendly Environments And So On. Some Have Spent A Good Deal Of Time Advocating For Maternity Leave For Fathers.

Vive La Difference. Isn't It Time We Got Past Seeing Certain Things As Women's Issues And Realised That They Are Community And Social Issues?

Amen!!!

[WANDERER]

This thread makes for interesting reading:

Feminist Mormon Housewives Guest Post: Caroline's Temple Experience

I don't think it transgresses things that should not be discussed (not sure...it talks about the obedience and hearken word used mainly)...but it leads into a conversation about how women view their role in the church and it's the best discussion I have read on women's issues and how women perceive them.

Edited June 11, 2008 by WANDERER

[Fiannan]

Hey Wanderer, I can not resist posting this in reference to your comments on the pic I posted earlier. I was looking up heights of European leaders -- my son has a complex about being only 5ft. 7inches -- and ran across this comment from Sylvio Berlusconi -- the leader of Italy.

Berlusconi: Left has uglier women

Berlusconi delights in the company of glamorous women Italian opposition leader Silvio Berlusconi has claimed that right-wing female politicians are better looking than their left-wing counterparts.

Berlusconi Says The Left Has Uglier Women | Sweetness & Light

By the way, in Europe Sarkozy, Berlusconi and Putin are considered quite attractive by women yet the tallest one of the bunch is Putin at 5 feet 7 inches.

[WANDERER]

LOL Finian.

Actually I leapt to the wrong conclusion there...it's a valid point that this is how the majority of society perceives feminists, because people do...and the distancing of the church from this perception is what happens as a result.

Actually I found the story of the protest march interesting reading...particularly when the bystander says I can't work out whether they're for or against abortion and the writer answers both...LOL.

[Bookmeister]

Finnian, do you really want to help your son's self-esteem by pointing out that he's as tall as the former head of the Soviet KGB? LOLOL

[Hemidakota]

Listening [subscribe]...

[Hemidakota]

Hey Wanderer, I can not resist posting this in reference to your comments on the pic I posted earlier. I was looking up heights of European leaders -- my son has a complex about being only 5ft. 7inches -- and ran across this comment from Sylvio Berlusconi -- the leader of Italy.

Berlusconi Says The Left Has Uglier Women | Sweetness & Light

By the way, in Europe Sarkozy, Berlusconi and Putin are considered quite attractive by women yet the tallest one of the bunch is Putin at 5 feet 7 inches.

My 12-year old is the high....

[WANDERER]

I'm 160cm tall...which makes me shorter than all of them. Converting into imperial using online metric converter: 5 foot 2. Admittedly, on the dating front, I have found that taller guys are more likely to ask me out. The shorter guys go for height equivalence or ever-so slightly taller gals (the no high heels syndrome)...so in my experience it doesn't widen the dating pool for short girls. But that may be just a location thingy.

Tracking back onto thread: Yes, there are cultural/gender differences. Sameness doesn't equal equality.

[Fiannan]

Finnian, do you really want to help your son's self-esteem by pointing out that he's as tall as the former head of the Soviet KGB? LOLOL

Hey, but Putin is way cool. Oh, and Wanderer, I think Dmitry Medvedev is around 5 ft 4 inches.

[LegendadryPerc]

Sameness doesn't equal equality.

That's the difference between feminism compatable with LDS doctrine, and that which would take isues with our whole family, motherhood, preisthood, teachings. Perfect statement.

[WANDERER]

Mmmm, I'm not so sure Percy that I define things the same way. Anything that denies access to God, simply based on gender alone, is inherently wrong and I have difficulties with some celestial concepts such as resurrection.

[Hemidakota]

Now that raises my curiosity Wanderer about Celestial Resurrection. Why?

[WANDERER]

Something about being called by name by your spouse?

[Hemidakota]

Oh! Got it. My wife has the same issue. She picks on me over it since it is the duty of us - priesthood holders - to do our finally act across the veil.

[LegendadryPerc]

Mmmm, I'm not so sure Percy that I define things the same way. Anything that denies access to God, simply based on gender alone, is inherently wrong and I have difficulties with some celestial concepts such as resurrection.

[MommaBear]

This topic totally intrigues me. After 28 years of having been inactive in the church (I was baptized at 10 years old and my parents chose to leave the church, as a family, when I was 14), I have begun revisiting Mormonism - for myself and my family. One of the issues I struggle with is the role of women in the church. Like Wanderer, I would not label myself (I actually detest labels) as being a feminist - just as a humanist or an individualist, I guess you could call it. I'm a homeschooling, stay-at-home mom to three children (one of whom is severely physically disabled), yet my husband cooks far better than I can, and my housekeeping skills are definitely lacking. I have my gifts, my strengths, but they are not ones that would lead some people to deem me to be the so-called model/ultimate wife and mother or keeper of the home. I am unique in my approach - and it works for us and for our family. I don't believe that all women can fit into one mold - in fact, that would be going against, I believe, what God has planned for us. To reject who we are, naturally, would be to reject our own creation. It's like the shape sorting game most of us played as kids - you can't force the square block into the circle opening. We can all aspire to living modest, pure, spiritual lives - and we can be as successful at it as humans can be - we may just accomplish this in different ways- because we are different people.

One note: I believe that the Mormon church is more progressive than other Christian faiths in that they at least acknowledge the existence of a Heavenly Mother. If you look at nature, itself, you see that life is not possible without the existence of both male and female forces. In looking at ancient traditions and mythology, too, we can see, in the belief of male and female deity, that many gods and goddesses exist to represent the many aspects of humanity. Athena, in Greek tradition, is a warrior whereas Aphrodite is the goddess of love. Brighid in celtic tradition is the goddess of poetry, (health) midwifery and the forge, whereas the Morrighan is a warrior that ushers in death, or bestows her strength on chosen ones to win in battle. Because there is no cookie cutter version of women, there came to be many goddesses out there to represent aspects of what *can* make up or define woman. I think, also, that embracing the goddess in us (or in LDS faith, the acceptance of a Heavenly Mother) does not necessarily make us feminists - it just allows us to see (and accept) ourselves for who we really are...for who Heavenly Father meant for us to be.

[BusyMom]

Sorry, I've been off writing papers. In fact, the last one was quite interesting in that it detailed a case study of an LDS woman being abused by her husband and the counselor utilizes a feminist perspective. Now, in counseling (and what I referred to in the opening post) is the feminist perspective which states:

1. The personal is political. Generally what we experience has something to do with culture and society's norms and expectations. Rarely, is a problem simply the result of an interpersonal failing.

2. A committment to change. Change that helps elminate discrimination and oppression for ALL people.

3. Egalitarian relationships. Relationships should seek to enhance the strengths of each person and not be cut along gender lines. Each person should feel that their contribution is valuable and valued, not necessarily "equal".

4. Honor women's experiences. Women (and other oppressed groups) should be able to voice their experiences, in thier words, from their perspective and have it honored and validated without predujice due to preconceived notions or societal ideals.

This, as I stated earlier, is a theoretical/philosophical view not a political statement. I think it's compatible with the LDS faith and I didn't have much a problem helping my LDS case study client using this philosophy and the tenets of the LDS religion.

Any thoughts?

[MarginOfError]

Honestly, I think the Church could use a few more good feminists.

I have a good friend who got her undergraduate degree at a prestigious institution in Cambridge, MA. She then moved with her husband to Utah for a couple of years where she pursued a Master's degree. More than once, upon telling women in different wards--sometimes different stakes, who had no affiliation with each other--that she was getting a Master's degree, she received incredulous looks and the question, "Isn't a bachelor's degree enough?" The obvious implication was that a woman doesn't need any more education than an undergraduate degree (if that). Talk about disappointing.

So, I think the Church could use a few more feminists to help break the stereotype that good Mormon women do nothing but cook, sew, do genealogy, and spend their lives pregnant. (Admittedly, we've made lots of progress on this already, but we've still got a ways to go).

[Fiannan]

...do nothing but cook, sew, do genealogy, and spend their lives pregnant.

Careful...I know what you are saying in your post (and I like it) but don't fall into the society's (Satan's) trap of making it sound that these things are in some way inferior to the "Sex and the City" lifestyle.

[MarginOfError]

Careful...I know what you are saying in your post (and I like it) but don't fall into the society's (Satan's) trap of making it sound that these things are in some way inferior to the "Sex and the City" lifestyle.

You make a good point, and I apologize for leaving that implication. In the interest of full disclosure, my wife wants to do nothing but cooks, sew, clean, cross stitch, and maybe learn to garden. I have no problem with that because she sincerely wants to spend her life doing those things. Any time I suggest she go back to school and finish a degree she rolls her eyes at me and stops listening.

So to clarify my point, women in the Church need to feel comfortable pursuing the life activities that they want to pursue, whether that be homemaking, medicine, or even managing a fast-food restaurant.

If I were to give my idea of a feminist revolution in the Church a basis in scripture, it would be

[Q]And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. (Mormon 9:14)[/Q]

which I would interpret as saying that you'll only be as happy in the eternities as you are in this life (generally speaking, of course). Thus, to make yourself less happy by conforming to a gender role that isn't a role you desire only compromises your eternal happiness. (Again, if that gender role truly makes you happy, go for it).

[Fiannan]

You make a good point, and I apologize for leaving that implication. In the interest of full disclosure, my wife wants to do nothing but cooks, sew, clean, cross stitch, and maybe learn to garden. I have no problem with that because she sincerely wants to spend her life doing those things. Any time I suggest she go back to school and finish a degree she rolls her eyes at me and stops listening.

So to clarify my point, women in the Church need to feel comfortable pursuing the life activities that they want to pursue, whether that be homemaking, medicine, or even managing a fast-food restaurant.

If I were to give my idea of a feminist revolution in the Church a basis in scripture, it would be

[Q]And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. (Mormon 9:14)[/Q]

which I would interpret as saying that you'll only be as happy in the eternities as you are in this life (generally speaking, of course). Thus, to make yourself less happy by conforming to a gender role that isn't a role you desire only compromises your eternal happiness. (Again, if that gender role truly makes you happy, go for it).

I like your approach. Personally, I would like my daughters to take up auto repair as well as carpentry on the side. Who says the wife should go in the kitchen and bake cookies while the husband adds a new room to the house after the birth of a forth or fifth child? And wouldn't it be fun for a husband and wife to get all messy doing auto work to save on money so they can instead use the money to go on a family trip?

Just for fun I'd post one of those German tool or car parts ads but while the models are legally covered I have learnt there is an aversion on these boards to European women's skin. It would just be to illustrate that manuel labor and and females do not compromise being sexy.

On another point, there is a scripture in the OT that illustrates what a wonderful woman's characteristics are. One is that she makes and sells things in the marketplace. One of the reasons polygamy was a positive thing in the 19th. Century in Utah was some women took more traditionally male jobs to earn communal money while others concentrated on raising the kids. This allowed for the "working women" to be able to fullfil the commandment to raise lots of kids and not have to choose between earning money or fertility.

In that respect, polygamy would fit into feminism quite well.

With the modernization of the workplace I would hope LDS women can apply their talents without having to sacrifice childbearing to do it. So unitl polygamy comes back we can still learn from women's examples in our past.

[MarginOfError]

[Q] So unitl polygamy comes back we can still learn from women's examples in our past. [/Q]

until?? Are you making plans already? ;-)