"getting Beyond a testimony" by Wallace Goddard

[rameumptom]

I personally do not believe that God is too busy to hear or answer our prayers. He has lots of assistance (angels, Holy Spirit, etc) to assist him in his duties. I do believe that sometimes he does not answer us immediately because of various reasons.

First, perhaps we are not totally ready for the answer. Joseph Smith asked about polygamy, not realizing the answer he would receive would not be an easy one to receive (go and live it).

Second, we may not be asking the right question to get the answe we are seeking.

Finally, God sometimes has other reasons not to answer us right now.

[Hemidakota]

You know what Hemi? I have read upwards of 100 of your posts, and am, frankly, weary of your self-righteous, simplistic assumption that YOU know better than anyone else what HE or SHE has experienced. You do not.

For example:

No, you could not. The ONLY person YOU can quiz is YOU. No one else.

What are those fundamentals Hemi?

Let me explain some fundamentals you don’t see. You are not omniscient. You are not a mind reader. You do not have the faintest clue about another person’s journey. You do not have enough information to judge anyone other than yourself.

The ONLY person you have enough information to understand is YOU. No one else.

No Hemi. The ONLY person you can determine was spiritually prepared is YOU. No one else.

No, Hemi, you do not.

The ONLY person for whom you can understand this principle clearly is YOU. No one else.

No, Hemi. The ONLY person you can determine was too busy, or not, to meet a member of the Godhead is YOU. No one else.

No, Hemi. The ONLY person with which you are able to see Him answering is YOU. No one else.

No Hemi. The ONLY person you can assume failed is YOU. NO one else.

No, Hemi. Only YOU can discuss when He found the time to talk to YOU. No one else.

Are you starting to see the pattern?

You have such a black and white way of thinking, it is impossible for you to see the grays in anyone else’s experience that does not mirror yours.

As far as I know, you don’t know any of us personally. You certainly don’t know me, And you certainly do not know what I have or have not done to gain a testimony. By "I," I mean all of us who do not share your testimony, but who have tried to gain a testimony like yours in ways you can't possibly being to comprehend.

Please feel free to tell me about your spiritual experiences. I will listen.

But don’t presume to tell me about mine.

Elphaba

Elph, there are moments, when I had read a few of your posting that requires some humbling injection shots. It is a two way street when it comes to judgment you know.

Failure….Goodk, already demonstrated his position in this forum, his stance that countermands church doctrinal points. I will not sit idling by, to watch someone with a weaker testimony be drawn after this nonsense. Would you? Failure is not listening Elph. Sounds familiar? We eventually failed on the smaller things in the gospel to find ourselves apostasy based on larger gospel teachings later.

No, I simply don't see the picture. Nor a pattern. When I simply noted something that occurs in my own life and others I had interviewed over the years. I use the same capture data methods as Mary did in her life, to ponder those data points. After a given time, a pattern emerges to form an image. This is the picture as I was talking about.

Clarity of the posting of what I am referring too has nothing to do with feeling the Spirit or hearing a voice but actual conversing with the Savior, face-to-face. Does the Lord send others in His place? Yes! Here is another notable pattern.

For me, any opportunity to converse, feeling the Spirit, or likewise is treasured and a building block for my testimony.

Do you get the picture?

[Hemidakota]

jumping away from the idea that He may be too busy to do something (which is not my 'debate' in this reply), let's look at the other possible reason someone doesn't get an answer to the question they ask regarding the truth of the BoM/LDS Church.

Maybe, in His infinite wisdom as the Christ, the Son of God, He determines we are not truly sincere or honestly ready and willing to act appropriately on the knowledge He'd otherwise freely give us.

We read the requirements for sincerity, humility, and honesty in seeking the answer to the big question (Is it true?), yet we in our efforts to find the answer may not get it because HE decides we aren't ready for it. Why is that? Perhaps He sees that the one asking isn't entirely dedicated to the pursuit of that truth. Only He is the person with the right to say if you are or are not:

1) Humble/sincere/honest enough to fulfill the criteria needed to fulfill Moroni's promise.

2) Prepared, spiritually, with faith, to receive it.

He is the only final and ultimate authority on that search for truth, as He is the one that personally gives it; and while some like to say someone isn't humble enough or honest enough, the only way they can truly know that is revelation by the Spirit. Maybe they do really know you aren't really fulfilling all the requirements to receive an answer...but telling someone if they are or aren't doing enough or the right things to have the truth can get murky. :)

He is the one that makes that choice...and I trust Him.

Excellent thoughts....is it ok to believe that we should seek out the Holy Ghost eveyday in prayer - feelings - to know our standing before GOD?

[Gillebre]

Like has been said before...it's so much more than just emotions or 'feelings', and I think that we don't entirely understand the methods that He uses (silly 'i think', because obviously...:) i know).

When I ask Him something, or receive a communique from Him it is so much more than a burning feeling. While that feeling plays a part, it isn't all of it by any means. I feel it in my mind, as well, and with every part of my being...I know. It takes time to realize the way you personally receive it...and it's important to know. In that light you can receive promptings from Him about many things.

I think it's entirely appropriate and even necessary to seek always our standing with Him, so we can keep on our path to perfection in Jesus Christ, through His atoning sacrifice.

[Guest Username-Removed]

I just took some time to read this thread. While reading, I thought of why this message board fails. When I see personal attacks run rampant, all I see is hate from one individual to another. When I see hate, I dont see that person being directed by the spirit.

We are not perfect, being members of the church. But one thing is certain, despite our failures at spelling, grammer, among other things, we dont attack, but we do defend.

Its a sad day when a thread that has such potential as presenting readers with the understanding of the process of prayer is squelched by those that would use works of hate. I wonder if they truely understand what they are doing.

Hemi, you are a defender of the truth. And I stand with you.

To others that would like to know my testimony of the power of prayer, here is a poem I wrote my kids several years ago...

------------------

He is, I am

By Mark

From early in my life, I’ve known him to be true.

My Father in Heaven knows who I am.

He gives me hints and direction to both me and you.

He does this by the way he talks and teaches,

The way he touches the depths of my soul.

My spirit is moved by his eternal reaches.

The way he speaks to me is personal.

His language is definite, yet inexplicable.

It’s emotional, loving and spiritual.

Something tells me he understands every situation,

It’s as if he’s been in every triumph and every failure.

His understanding is more than communication.

I am thankful that my soul; my being, he knows.

He understands my strengths and struggles.

I fear not, because I realize that I am not alone.

How is it possible that he could be so close to me?

How could it be that he can look me in the eyes,

and say, “whatever you ask that is good I will grant thee?”

I can tell you, with everything I am,

When you pray for the right thing,

He can do nothing, but grant.

So, if your spirit learns how to comprehend,

His knowledge will become yours.

The power of you, will become the power of him.

Someday, many may bring his cause into question,

Your understanding will be unwavering and true.

I have no doubt that you will then move mountains.

Until that day learn to be caring, loving and teachable.

Learn how to hear his voice and do what he says.

After this, the strength of your soul will be eternal.

-------------

[rameumptom]

I think there's been tough speech on both sides of the fence. Neither side should be judging individuals nor the experiences they've had. Condemning the spiritual experience of LDS as just an emotional experience gone awry is to mischaracterize it. As for those who fall away, to deny this spiritual witness is the same as Judas Iscariot in the Bible denying his testimony of Jesus. The concept of "once saved, always saved" is not Biblical nor correct. People can lose their testimonies if they do not nourish them (see Alma 32). And while Peter's testimony caused him to proclaim Jesus as the Christ, something Jesus said was revealed by the Father to him, it wasn't until the day of Pentecost that Peter was truly converted and became a lion in God's service. Testimonies do not keep people from denying Christ thrice. So, I agree that Alexanderx' insistence and method on this thread that we have no real spiritual witness is an attack.

However, I also see others on the LDS side who have chosen to become judgmental and insist that they know the individual's motives better than the person himself does. While I enjoy many of Hemidakota's posts, some of these have bordered on ad hominem attacks in insisting he knows better than they do. Interviewing a person first requires the person's consent, and open ended questions that are not as subjective as the ones you proffered here.

Of course, Elphaba and I have both strong wills, and it often shows in our threads. I have to work hard to ensure my data are correct and to avoid mischaracterizations of others. I think that applies to all of us.

A little humility from all of us would do well in continuing a discussion that could turn out to be beneficial and fruitful.

[GoodK]

Failure….Goodk, already demonstrated his position in this forum, his stance that countermands church doctrinal points. I will not sit idling by, to watch someone with a weaker testimony be drawn after this nonsense...

Do you get the picture?

The picture I get is that you are willing to invent church doctrine to suit you. What a surprise. Please don't pretend to know me or my testimony. Your display on this board is shameful, to say the least.

[Hemidakota]

We all have to work harder to rid of ourselves of self-determination or superciliousness; that can be tough to beat in these mortal frames.

Now I beg to differ on several points, do we really defend the faith when the Spirit gives the alarm? I do see a failure point here. It doesn’t take a ‘Holy Man’ in seeing someone outright opposing those of the faith. Well?

I do understand I can be imperious at times and found myself in that position when someone challenges doctrinal points of the church. I also noted in my own profile, I am not an English major or fail in giving adequate thought clarity to the keyboard. We have those mortal weaknesses, as Paul did with her waning voice or Joseph poor writing dexterity. Should I close my eyes when I see such 'alarming' events before it happens? Or listen to the promptings of the Spirit? Being a former Marine, you will find the a [red type] character is shaped into several modes that supports one to fight versus flight. It does rise to surface at times and I list this as an old habit that I found came from my own pre-mortal state calling.

Now thanks for the candor assessment….we are here to serve and support those members that all can return home to our heavenly Parents. :)

[Guest Username-Removed]

I think there's been tough speech on both sides of the fence. Neither side should be judging individuals nor the experiences they've had. Condemning the spiritual experience of LDS as just an emotional experience gone awry is to mischaracterize it. As for those who fall away, to deny this spiritual witness is the same as Judas Iscariot in the Bible denying his testimony of Jesus. The concept of "once saved, always saved" is not Biblical nor correct. People can lose their testimonies if they do not nourish them (see Alma 32). And while Peter's testimony caused him to proclaim Jesus as the Christ, something Jesus said was revealed by the Father to him, it wasn't until the day of Pentecost that Peter was truly converted and became a lion in God's service. Testimonies do not keep people from denying Christ thrice. So, I agree that Alexanderx' insistence and method on this thread that we have no real spiritual witness is an attack.

However, I also see others on the LDS side who have chosen to become judgmental and insist that they know the individual's motives better than the person himself does. While I enjoy many of Hemidakota's posts, some of these have bordered on ad hominem attacks in insisting he knows better than they do. Interviewing a person first requires the person's consent, and open ended questions that are not as subjective as the ones you proffered here.

Of course, Elphaba and I have both strong wills, and it often shows in our threads. I have to work hard to ensure my data are correct and to avoid mischaracterizations of others. I think that applies to all of us.

A little humility from all of us would do well in continuing a discussion that could turn out to be beneficial and fruitful.

Sorry, I've seen the action on other threads. I think you may not have all the facts.

[GoodK]

Now I beg to differ on several points, do we really defend the faith when the Spirit gives the alarm? I do see a failure point here. It doesn’t take a ‘Holy Man’ in seeing someone outright opposing those of the faith. Well?

And it doesn't take a Holy Man to see when someone is inventing doctrine.

[rameumptom]

Sorry, I've seen the action on other threads. I think you may not have all the facts.

I do have the facts, at least enough to be informed. I have been on boards and email lists (over 20 years) long enough to see melt downs occurring. It takes two to tango, and I've been watching the antagonists on both sides go at it on several threads here. Many of us have been guilty of it on occasion, including me.

There are ways to discourse and ways to combat. We all need to learn to discourse. I'd really like to see this place stay above the fray. Perhaps a little more guidance from the moderators could help. I do note I saw them ban a person just a day or so ago for being rancorous on the boards. I also know they counseled Elphaba and me a couple months ago about our tirades, and rightfully so at the time.

Just because we have what we presume to be the gospel should not make us heap coals upon others. I find that the gospel I was converted to 32 years ago is not exactly the one I believe in today. I have progressed in my understanding and spiritual testimony (at least I hope so). While I occasionally do, say and write stupid things, I'm usually not so strict as to not consider others' ideas.

For example, I consider the things Hemi writes, even though I may not agree with everything he has received a personal testimony on. It is his testimony, not mine. I don't mind him bearing his testimony of the things he knows are true, just as I will bear mine. However, I would hope that neither of us would try to cram our testimonies down others' throats. I would also hope that neither AlexanderX nor Elphaba would force their beliefs on me, either. And I would hope we would all stay cordial and Christ-like in our responses.

Are there people that come here with the goal of disrupting and calling all Mormons to repent? Of course. Such should be moderated, and banned, if necessary. But so should any Mormons that take the same course against non-LDS, or other LDS that disagree with them.

I used to belong to an email list for over a decade, until some of the members began railing on the Church leadership for not excommunicating Mitt Romney. The moderator/owner would not stop the accusations, even though the list rules stated there would be no criticism of Church leaders. So, I took my ball and went home. It was, after all, their list to do what they please with. Sadly, I miss many of the good people that remained on that list.

The point is, even LDS people can say, write, and do many stupid and crass things. We should be the example of patience, mercy and kindness. I want to hear from people of all faiths. But I'd like to hear it in discourse, discussing actual ideas, and not an individual's worthiness.

[Guest Username-Removed]

When you get a personal attack or a percieved personal attack, you're supposed to send a note to the mods and NOT respond. Pretend like you dont care, and wait for the mods to reply to you.

HELLO? No mods? Thats why everyone is defending themselves - because the mods arent doing anything.

This is forum 101. HELLO? Anybody there?

So two things,

1) if you feel you are attacked, then wait, dont respond and send an email to the mods.

2) Mods should reply within 24 hours (IMHO) to you directly.

Also ...

* No mods, you get chaos! I refuse to post topics on any forum that has no moderation or the moderation process is broken. Because it turns into a hate fest which is what this is. Shame on LDS.NET!

* They need a kick in the pants like no other. And I'm happy to use all my webspace to provide it. They have 96 hours to reply to me or Im done for good. Maybe I'll create my own forum - I've done them before.

* Also, there are several people posting with multiple IDs. HELLO? Doesnt anybody have an IP trace around here? HELLO?

Edited June 13, 2008 by WordFLOOD

[Hemidakota]

Good point...

[rameumptom]

While I agree the mods could moderate a bit more, it isn't like they are being paid huge amounts of money for it. I appreciate the difficult job of moderating a forum, I've done it before. It is like herding cats.

Better is for us to moderate ourselves, so we don't have to get frustrated that the moderators are on summer vacation. If I strive to set a good example, perhaps others will follow my lead. Or at least take their arguments offline.

I'm sure several here would be glad to do this. For those easily frustrated by the bickering, it probably is best to leave for a time, or start your own forum. Blogs are easier to control than a board, for instance.

[Guest Username-Removed]

While I agree the mods could moderate a bit more, it isn't like they are being paid huge amounts of money for it. I appreciate the difficult job of moderating a forum, I've done it before. It is like herding cats.

Better is for us to moderate ourselves, so we don't have to get frustrated that the moderators are on summer vacation. If I strive to set a good example, perhaps others will follow my lead. Or at least take their arguments offline.

I'm sure several here would be glad to do this. For those easily frustrated by the bickering, it probably is best to leave for a time, or start your own forum. Blogs are easier to control than a board, for instance.

Moderating can be difficult. How you do it is you have one or two mods per sub-forum. They split the time they look often and read every post and they work with each other. The church is voluntary, the reason why people donate time is because they believe in the cause and have support. This forum is the world, and I can go to most of them and get better results than here. For those that refuse to try to make the forum better, perhaps they should simply not do anything. I think they call that process -- Sitting on the fence?

[Elphaba]

In all fairness Elphie YOU have no monopoly on being able to get inside Hemi's head and determine what he is thinking or what he knows either.

Actually, in this case, I can.

I am only referring to a specific type of comment Hemi makes to people who did not receive a testimony.

That is, when a person insists he has not received a testimony in spite of his efforts, Hemi insists if the person were to do what Hemi did, then he would receive a testimony. Of course I am paraphrasing, but this is the only posting behavior, of Hemi's, that I am discussing.

Therefore, each time Hemi writes such a post, it is obvious what he is thinking about.

The assumption that you know better than Hemi ...isn't that a grey area?

Not in this case.

I am referring to a very specific, and offensive, posting trait of Hemi’s that I have observed a number of times.

If a person has not experienced conversion, Hemi assumes he knows why, when, in fact, there is no possible way he could know why.

Then, when he tells Hemi his suggestions did not, or do not, work for him, Hemi responds with personal insults. Below is an example of Hemi’s post to such a person:

“I could start quizzing your background and see exactly where the failures points are.”

Obviously, Hemi can do no such thing. The only person Hemi could quiz about his background and see “failure points” is Hemi.

Below are more examples displaying Hemi’s inappropriate personal insults:

”I could start quizzing your background and see exactly where the failures points are.”

You assume to much and do not exhibit the necessary fundamentals in receiving the Truth. I clearly see that one.

It took years, months, when we are spiritually prepared. Were you? No.

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

I simply don't see Him answering it upon your head.

Something else you failed at . . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I stand by my post: The only person Hemi can determine failed to gain a testimony by not following his example is Hemi himself.

So, no. There is no grey when it comes to Hemi writing posts intended to personally insult other posters' efforts to gain a testimony, as he has no idea what they have, or have not, done.

Therefore, in this particular case, where I am only discussing Hemi's responses to people who have not experienced a conversion story like his own, the issue is very black and white.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Elph, there are moments, when I had read a few of your posting that requires some humbling injection shots.

Then interject. But if I disagree with you, do not insult me personally.

It is a two way street when it comes to judgment you know.

I am not talking about judgments, per se. I am talking about insults. In many of your posts you don’t seem to understand how to disagree with someone without insulting his person.

Failure….Goodk, already demonstrated his position in this forum, his stance that countermands church doctrinal points. I will not sit idling by, to watch someone with a weaker testimony be drawn after this nonsense. Would you?

Yes I would.

I’m a big girl, as are most members of the board (including the big guys). If someone wants to discuss doctrinal matters, then she can come to me and ask about them.

If not, then it is not my business.

By the way, if someone who was losing his testimony were to ask me something about it, I would not discuss it. The last thing I want to do is be part of someone losing a testimony.

I don’t write posts about things I do not understand.

Yes, you do.

Each time you write a post to someone who has not gained a testimony of the Church, and declare you know what he did wrong, then you are writing about something you do not understand.

You also don’t seem to understand if a person writes about her experience, and you want to discuss it, then you need to do so without personally insulting her. For example, the way you tell a person he is a failure. Just like you are about to do.

Failure….Goodk, already demonstrated his position in this forum, his stance that countermands church doctrinal points. I will not sit idling by, to watch someone with a weaker testimony be drawn after this nonsense. Would you?

Again, as I explained above, yes I would. If someone has a dwindling testimony, I am not likely to be the person who she would come to anyway.

I’ve been on the board a year now, and I don’t know anyone who lost a testimony because of me. I do know two people for whom I was extremely supportive when they decided to be baptised.

Failure is not listening Elph.

Is it? I wonder why that is.

Sounds familiar? We eventually failed on the smaller things in the gospel to find ourselves apostasy based on larger gospel teachings later.

And here we have what you cannot seem to grasp: The only person you can claim failed is you--no one else. WE did not fail, and I did not fail.

No, I simply don't see the picture. Nor a pattern. When I simply noted something that occurs in my own life and others I had interviewed over the years.

The pattern is that you disagree with someone, which is fine, but you don't stop there. Rather, you oftentimes go further by writing a post where you insult the person, not his position.

The only person you can say is a failure is YOU. You don’t know most people here well enough to say otherwise.

THAT is the pattern.

For me, any opportunity to converse, feeling the Spirit, or likewise is treasured and a building block for my testimony.

Then I am happy for you as I know your testimony means the world to you. But again, if the person does not experience the same, you should not write posts that personally insult him.

Do you get the picture?

Which picture? The one where Hemi continues to personally insult posters who disagree with him.

Or the one where Hemi finally understands it is possible to have a conversation where two people disagree, but neither writes posts that personally insult the other?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Of course, Elphaba . . .

What does this have to do with me?

I also know they counseled Elphaba

Again, what does this have to do with me?

Sorry, I've seen the action on other threads. I think you may not have all the facts.

Since I am the only person mentioned in this post, I have to ask. Is this about me? Are you leaving the board because of me?

But one thing is certain, . . .we dont attack, (emphasis mine)

. . . .

Hemi, you are a defender of the truth. And I stand with you.

Fascinating.

You don’t like it when you feel insulted. Yet when Hemi insults someone else, you think THAT is acceptable as he is a defender of the truth.

And when I call him on it, then I’m attacking him? Please.

So what is going on? Am I part of this “hate fest” you think is going on? Or is it just coincidence my name keeps popping up?

If I am being overly sensitive, then please chalk this up to self-absorbed paranoia fueled by sleep deprivation. But please leave me out of the conversation.

Elphaba

[Guest Username-Removed]

But please leave me out of the conversation.

Elphaba

Sounds good to me sir! Consider it done. But I have to be honest, I never really felt that most of your posts on this thread had to do with the original topic. In my opinion, perhaps, this would be a good time to relax a bit, and take a deep breath. Its just a suggestion, please refrain from future personal attacks against me. May I also suggest that you keep your posts on topic.

Back to the subject at hand, with regard to answers to prayers, I do think there is an army of heavanly hosts that assist Heavenly Father with answers to prayers. I do believe they work with the Holy Ghost. This is not something that I have any forensic evidence of, but plenty of personal experience with. And, I suppose that if I ever deserved to have Christ pay me a personal visit, I would expect to wait a bit, as he himself is only one person - and he himself is probably a busy personage. Also, I dont always get a quick answer, to prayers, but my personal belief is that its not because the system is busy, but other factors including my humility & receptitivy. Because HEMI and I may disagree on this sub topic, I do believe he is a good man. And I have no reason to pick apart every word he says, or other peoples words and comment on every single one. But thats just me. I suppose its a free forum, and personal attacks appear to be allowed.

[Elphaba]

Sounds good to me sir!

I'm a woman, but it's okay. I get that a lot.

Consider it done.

So are you acknowledging this is about me, or am I still off base. I can't imagine you are this angry because of me.

But I have to be honest, I never really felt that most of your posts on this thread had to do with the original topic.

Most of my posts? I've written three.

In my opinion, perhaps, this would be a good time to relax a bit, and take a deep breath. Its just a suggestion, please refrain from future personal attacks against me.

Where did I personally attack you?

May I also suggest that you keep your posts on topic.

Of course you can.

Back to the subject at hand, with regard to answers to prayers, I do think there is an army of heavanly hosts that assist Heavenly Father with answers to prayers. I do believe they work with the Holy Ghost. This is not something that I have any forensic evidence of, but plenty of personal experience with. And, I suppose that if I ever deserved to have Christ pay me a personal visit, I would expect to wait a bit, as he himself is only one person - and he himself is probably a busy personage. Also, I dont always get a quick answer, to prayers, but my personal belief is that its not because the system is busy, but other factors including my humility & receptitivy.

I've never said anything to you, or anyone else, claiming you thought otherwise.

Because HEMI and I may disagree on this sub topic, I do believe he is a good man.

As do I.

And I have no reason to pick apart every word he says, or other peoples words and comment on every single one.

Neither do I. Nor have I.

But thats just me. I suppose its a free forum, and personal attacks appear to be allowed.

No, they’re not allowed, although I suspect what you deem a “personal attack” is different from my definition.

Again, where did I personally attack you. I sincerely want to know.

Elphaba

[Guest Username-Removed]

The point is, even LDS people can say, write, and do many stupid and crass things.

Well, you and I agree on that. And I'll add that even non-members are at least on a par with that. Wouldnt you agree?

It's funny, my credibility rating with some of these posters is now so low its like I just ignore them now. Actually to be truthful, when I do read some of their posts, I dont seek inspiration or even see signs of intellgence. I view some of them (by the poster) as entertainment ... A lot of drama; better than cable TV! - (well Almost!)

"As the sands through the hourglass, so are some of the posts at LDS.Net"

Anybody got any snacks?

Its pure entertainment! Perhaps my expectations have been sufficiently and correctly modified. However, I already get free cable along with the Gameshow network and SOAPnet.

And just to keep this post on topic, I do believe Heavanly Father can direct us through personal revelation. Much of it has to do with where you are.

Edited June 14, 2008 by WordFLOOD

[Elphaba]

Well, you and I agree on that. And I'll add that even non-members are at least on a par with that. Wouldnt you agree?

Why don't you quit dancing around the non-member and tell her why you are angry at her?

I'll take this to PM.

Elphaba

[rameumptom]

I think the issue here is we all need to seek a little Christ-like kindness towards one another (whether we believe in him, or how we believe in him or not). Patience is a virtue, and when people begin talking past one another and taking offense, it only grows what should be a minor problem.

If I disagree with Wordflood, Hemi, Elphaba or anyone else, I'll strive to keep on topic and not abuse anyone. I realize none of us is perfect, including me, so even I need a reminder on occasion (hence moderators, et al).

I hope none of us is so smug that we will insist on standing firm on offending, or on the other hand, taking offense. Shall we move on to better things than to strip this thread of its values, and delimit it to I was offended, my turn to offend?

A testimony is only a beginning. Many receive an initial testimony, but lose it by not nourishing it properly. And they require a LOT of nourishment and care on a daily and continual basis. Even then, it does not equate to a conversion, which is when many small testimonies have caused not only a small flame, but a bonfire in the heart and mind. The former is easily doused, while the conversion can weather rainstorms.

Do I have an absolute knowledge of spiritual things? Of course not. And I even doubt certain portions of my testimony that are not as strong as other areas. What helps me then is to think back to those experiences that began developing the testimony in the first place. Things that I cannot explain, nor do I share publicly.

I do know the history of the Church, and thankfully do not have a testimony based upon it. I know that Joseph, Brigham, and every prophet has had weaknesses and issues. Know what? So have I, but I'm not about to give up on myself, solely due to a series of knuckleheaded events in my life. The issue is whether these men have been called of God or not. Spiritual witnesses and experience have taught me they are. Still, I am cautious in considering new teachings from them, to ensure I gain my own witness.

[Guest Username-Removed]

If I disagree with Wordflood, Hemi, Elphaba or anyone else, I'll strive to keep on topic and not abuse anyone. I realize none of us is perfect, including me, so even I need a reminder on occasion (hence moderators, et al).

Absolutely we all have differences. That is our common ground. Its hard for me to stand idly by when there is (in my opinion) character assassinations of a good man with good character. I understand that we can and should debate the topic, but HEMI isn’t the topic here - that's when it got personal. Now, I also realize it could have been handled better by HEMI when he started taking hits. If someone feels they are attacked, they simply have to push the button and move on. However, if a mod does not reply, faith in the process will degrade, and nobody will post anything of value if every sentence from every topic by a poster is picked apart and misconstrued into something else. Why do that? That’s where it should have stopped. And it didnt.

I’m comfortable with what I have written. I know you may not have done the same thing, but I don’t think we are that different. I am not exactly like you, and my interpretation of how Christ would handle it may be different than yours. Christ wasn’t always a man of inaction and pure tolerance. In fact, he was quite bold and forthright on many occasions.

However, he always acted out of love and he was a defender of our Heavenly Father. I see his characteristics in many of today’s leaders and modern prophets. Have you ever seen a man of more action than President Hinckley? However just because we don’t exactly agree, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t defend you any differently than HEMI, or even Elphaba in a similar situation.

[Justice]

In other words, facts and information mean nothing. Rely on feelings.

This isn't how the rational human mind was designed to process and accept belief in anything.

Is it any wonder the Church is having a hard time keeping its members? Emotion is temporary, and active members remain active so long as they can keep riding that emotional high. Routine testimony meetings were designed to keep that emotion at the forefront. But emotion blinds, it doesn't enlighten. And most people end up researching things for themselves. Rational minds need this.

It's called faith.

If it were fact and information then it would be proven for all, and faith would not be required.