"getting Beyond a testimony" by Wallace Goddard

[Hemidakota]

There is a problem with being unworthy in attempting to receive an answer when you are in the end hold accounted for it.

Hemi perhaps...but you will be held accountable...whether you receive that answer or not.

I don't believe the Lord will place in that position. I simply don't see Him answering it upon your head. I had witnessed that in my own life when we seek for the greater light of this world. It comes later when our spirituality has matured to that point of accepting that portion of light.

The only draw back is not following through or acting upon it.

[GoodK]

In all fairness, check the profile for any age of members here if truthfully listed.

There is a purpose in asking that Holy Ghost Comm question, without any real world understanding how the Holy Spirit communicates you will not find answers that you are seeking for.

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

Further clarity to this busyness, there was an Apostle who was the President of the Quorum of the Twelve who went to the temple in Salt Lake when he found out the president of the church died while traveling. His visitation to the Celestial room was to inquire before the Lord on how to proceed on selection of the next prophet. After lengthy stay in the room, the prophet thought the Lord was busy and left. As he walked the hallway that exited the Celestial room, the apostle finally met the Savor face-to-face. It was a valuable lesson for me also, when we asked the Godhead for special answer, I don't expect them to appear at once.

I find the above post highly suspect of a 49 year old. It is completely void of the kind of reasoning I would expect from an experienced adult.

Examples:

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. But I suppose you are right about one thing, if I did meet any member of the Godhead, we would be having an entirely different discussion.

After lengthy stay in the room, the prophet thought the Lord was busy and left. As he walked the hallway that exited the Celestial room, the apostle finally met the Savor face-to-face.

This is an odd non sequitur to the original statement you made, that Jesus can be too busy to answer prayer promptly. Your anecdote does nothing to support the claim that Jesus, someone who is not bound by the laws of gravity, the space-time continuum, etc... could be "busy". This makes no sense, didn't make any sense when you first wrote it, and you have yet to clear any of it up. The fact is, by definition, Jesus could never be too busy for anything. He is the Christ, remember?

[KosherXMorg]

In all fairness, check the profile for any age of members here if truthfully listed.

There is a purpose in asking that Holy Ghost Comm question, without any real world understanding how the Holy Spirit communicates you will not find answers that you are seeking for.

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

Further clarity to this busyness, there was an Apostle who was the President of the Quorum of the Twelve who went to the temple in Salt Lake when he found out the president of the church died while traveling. His visitation to the Celestial room was to inquire before the Lord on how to proceed on selection of the next prophet. After lengthy stay in the room, the prophet thought the Lord was busy and left. As he walked the hallway that exited the Celestial room, the apostle finally met the Savor face-to-face. It was a valuable lesson for me also, when we asked the Godhead for special answer, I don't expect them to appear at once.

The fundamentalists use this experience to show the leaders weren't worthy to receive answers within the walls of the temple anymore. Funny how different groups have different interpretations:rolleyes:

[Hemidakota]

Again, you do not understand the workings of the Godhead. That itself, extricate you from the picture on what I am saying. This antidotal you called, is merely pointing something out that happens to those who are called. Expectation of having someone there at that moment does not always happened.

Now, noting my age and what you presume lack of gospel experience has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You do not even have the Spirit of Discernment to find out on had transpired in my life to account for that gospel maturity. With finding excuses of ones character flaws is one course that is lacks forum maturity or worth any further engagement of the same. However, I had seen this already in other threads. What is your purpose on being here?

Edited June 11, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

The fundamentalists use this experience to show the leaders weren't worthy to receive answers within the walls of the temple anymore. Funny how different groups have different interpretations:rolleyes:

Including apostates who left feeling the same.

[WANDERER]

Skalenfehl, I respect a lot of what you have to say and thankyou for responding. I guess it's one of those issues of frustration for those that are investigating or searching (or who have investigated) that is likely to get a reaction. I know this...which is exactly why I shouldn't be buying into it.

Edited June 11, 2008 by WANDERER

[Hemidakota]

Beside study and prayer...effort is needed.

Study, pray, act - do something about it! To have a testimony of God and his Son Jesus Christ can bring about the greatest blessing you can attain in this mortal existence. Each blessing is obtained by fulfilling the law upon which that blessing is predicated. The law upon which this blessing is predicated is given extensively throughout the scriptures.

In Matthew we read: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Matt. 7:7-8. Italics added.)

... What does it mean to knock or seek? This is a way of saying, "It requires effort on your part." Study, pray, act—do something about it! Knowledge alone saves no one. Lucifer knows, and it is this knowledge which is to his damnation. Without proper action, it can be the same to anyone else. (Eldred G. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1964, pp. 9-10.)

[GoodK]

Again, you do not understand the workings of the Godhead.

How do you know I don't understand the workings of the Godhead? And how do you know that you do? Truth is, you know very little about what I understand and don't understand, my dear fellow. Please refrain from telling me what I understand and don't understand.

That itself, extricate you from the picture on what I am saying. This antidotal you called, is merely pointing something out that happens to those who are called. Expectation of having someone there at that moment does not always happened.

Now, noting my age and what you presume lack of gospel experience has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Neither does my membership in the church, but you felt compelled to ask me. Perhaps for the same reason I asked your age, to get a better sense of what kind of person I am dealing with. Also, you don't seem to notice (or maybe you don't care) that you have employed a non sequitur to support your claim that Jesus can be "busy". Forgive me, but this sort of tactic does not usually come from the well studied apologists I am used to speaking with.

You do not even have the Spirit of Discernment to find out on had transpired in my life to account for that gospel maturity.

I didn't say anything about gospel maturity. Along with non sequitur, I urge you to be aware of the straw man argument as well.

With finding excuses of ones character flaws is one course that is lacks forum maturity or worth any further engagement of the same. However, I had seen this already in other threads. What is your purpose on being here?

Please take a look at the above statement and try and word it better so I can understand it and respond.

My purpose right now is to try and dissuade you of this notion that Jesus can be too busy at times.

[WANDERER]

This is a side issue or distraction...worthiness is between myself and God and if I look to other people's opinions on that one then my focus is wrong. You can only get the wrong answer that way and not a true testimony or perhaps even a false testimony which would be far worse. Mind you, that doesn't mean good advice can't be given.

[Bookmeister]

I like to think of myself as a pretty rational, intelligent sort of fellow. That said, much of what we're dealing here involves a question of faith, and so far faith is not something that seems to be amenable to scientific/"rational"/"Logical" analysis only. By it's very definition faith is the acceptance of something that cannot be proved empirically.

However, I went through the steps outlined when I wanted to know if the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the P of GP were the true words of Heavenly Father. It took some time, but I felt, actually felt as if someone were standing right there with me, the touch of the Holy Spirit when He confirmed to me the truth of these writings. The answer to my prayers was sufficient in force to actually drop me to my knees in the middle of the intramural field at college on a warm spring morning.

I've been active and inactive, explored other churches and religious beliefs and sought the same confirmations from them that I did from this Church. Nary a peep. In all my years, even when I had strayed so very far from the LDS Church, never did I ever feel that I had been fooling myself or that I had somehow imagined what I felt.

But again, this is just a question of faith. There have been times too numerous to count where the actions and influence of Heavenly Father have taken place in my life, and many of these answered prayers should simply not have happened in a rational, logical world.

I have no objective answer for anyone...all I know is that, for me, there is no question.

[Hemidakota]

If you did, we will be in an agreement. At this point, we are not. My testimony of the Godhead is something that I don't take lightly and for those who are willing to take up arms to fight, be my guest.

[Hemidakota]

This is a side issue or distraction...worthiness is between myself and God and if I look to other people's opinions on that one then my focus is wrong. You can only get the wrong answer that way and not a true testimony or perhaps even a false testimony which would be far worse. Mind you, that doesn't mean good advice can't be given.

Well put.

[GoodK]

If you did, we will be in an agreement. At this point, we are not. My testimony of the Godhead is something that I don't take lightly and for those who are willing to take up arms to fight, be my guest.

You are running away from your earlier statement, that Jesus can be too busy. Care to expound on that, or have you realized that this is a silly thing to say, whether or not one believes in Jesus Christ or not?

[Hemidakota]

I just did wihout getting personal. However, you are not listening.

[GoodK]

I just did wihout getting personal. However, you are not listening.

You said:

If you did, we will be in an agreement. At this point, we are not. My testimony of the Godhead is something that I don't take lightly and for those who are willing to take up arms to fight, be my guest.

Is this your explanation for why Jesus sometimes finds himself a little busy?

Because I don't understand the Godhead?

In case it is not painfully obvious, you have yet to even try and support that theory, that Jesus has too much on his plate at times. And the crickets chirping here lead me to believe that not too many others agree with you.

If I understood, we would be in agreement. You can't be serious. What an arrogant way to think! Like I said earlier, I really doubt I'm dealing with a 49 year old educated adult when you make statements like that.

[Hemidakota]

I am glad you can at least make "assumption", seeing you are 23-years old [hopefully that is right number].

Education or arrogance you claim, has nothing to do with 'knowing the Godhead'. Something else you failed at - assuming. Try asking the Savior yourself and let me know when He finds the time to talk to you in person.

[GoodK]

Try asking the Savior yourself and let me know when He finds the time to talk to you in person.

Translation: I have run out of gas.

So sad. It's funny how you personify the Savior has someone who has "time" to do anything. Seems to me he would have all the time in the world... but it's clear you are just holding on to some folklore or something you heard in primary. To date no one has supported your claim. Not even you.

[Hemidakota]

First, need to have gas to fill up. At this point, I don't see any.

Again, when you get around in finding out, come back so WE CAN CONVERSE on this very subject. I am also looking for those who are called to the CFB. You know, there are doctrines, principles, or truths, that cannot be supported at this time on record but between the Godhead and 'self.' This is one of them. What I revealed in that story was told by prophets daughter.

The folklore I have been reading so far, what is resounding from your end in regards to the Law of Chasity...it started on a subject from your own self-forklore [using your own words], assuming what is not doctrine, when in fact, a prophet and apostles said otherwise. For me, you are not in that privildge seating position GK within the church to declare otherwise. Now, using your own folklore doctrinal folklore, please write a statement to the President Monson on your beliefs in this area or any of the GAs listed and I will be glade to entertain their remarks with you.

[HiJolly]

Seems this board is quickly becoming undistinguishable from the MA&DB board. I regret it.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Ey-l anyone?

[GoodK]

First, need to have gas to fill up. At this point, I don't see any.

Huh?

Again, when you get around in finding out, come back so WE CAN CONVERSE on this very subject. I am also looking for those who are called to the CFB.

We can't converse on this very topic. I have tried, but to no avail. You change directions faster than I can keep up, and you don't even bother to respond to points I make, and when things are looking grim, you tell me I don't know God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost well enough. Why don't you inform yourself a little more before engaging in apologetics.

You know, there are doctrines, principles, or truths, that cannot be supported at this time on record but between the Godhead and 'self.' This is one of them. What I revealed in that story was told by prophets daughter.

What do you mean they can't be supproted at this time on record? A prophets daughter, eh? Well without getting into the credibility of your story (and the resemblance it bears with other pieces of LDS folklore) I guess I have to point out to you (a 49 year old adult) that your story says nothing about Jesus not having time to do something. All your story demonstrates is that someone thought that Jesus was busy. Wow. I can't believe I actually have to spell this out.

The folklore I have been reading so far, what is resounding from your end in regards to the Law of Chasity...it started on a subject from your own self-forklore [using your own words], assuming what is not doctrine, when in fact, a prophet and apostles said otherwise. For me, you are not in that privildge seating position GK within the church to declare otherwise.

And apparently you don't understand my position (yet you have no reservations attacking it) because prophets and apostles have said a lot of things that aren't considered church doctrine. Cafeteria Mormons don't get to decide what is doctrine.

Now, using your own folklore doctrinal folklore, please write a statement to the President Monson on your beliefs in this area or any of the GAs listed and I will be glade to entertain their remarks with you.

(more flagrant typos - I wouldn't complain because God knows my posts aren't free of them - but please try a little harder. I'm trying to follow along, and since you are already all over the road, this is just making it more difficult)

A dear friend said this on another board when asked to write the brethren - The brethren have asked the rank and file members to not send them letters regarding doctrinal issues. I'm sure you would love to put the burden on me and run away from the things you said earlier, but that won't do the trick.

There is dignity in ammending a faulty statement.

[rameumptom]

Alma 29:8 states that God gives to all mankind the amount of truth and light they are ready to receive. Only God can determine who is ready for the gospel light. There are many issues that can keep a person from receiving a witness in the moment, and it isn't just worthiness issues. I believe a part of it depends on our ability to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. This means that if the world has hardened our hearts in any way, it makes it more difficult for the Spirit to get its message through a closed door.

It works like this: if a person builds a protective wall to keep bad guys out, that person has also made a wall that keeps good people out, too. It requires that we open up and allow ourselves to be vulnerable to hear the Spirit. And that isn't always an easy thing for any of us.

I think that emotional/mental struggles can also keep us from hearing or recognizing the Spirit. And yes, sins can definitely impact it. So can pride. I recall once having a discussion with some preachers, and they offered to pray, and so they prayed: "Dear God, we know we already have the truth, but if Joseph Smith was a prophet, go ahead and tell us." Anyway, they got their answer.

Revelation is not an easy thing. D&C 9 tells us that we have to work for it, and not just think we can ask and receive the answer immediately.

As for the modern prophets receiving witnesses, I know they still receive witnesses of the Godhead within the temple itself. The 1978 revelation is evidence of that, just go back and read the testimonies given by several of the apostles that were there in the SLC temple when the revelation was received, especially Elder Haight's various witnesses. Or Elder McConkie's final testimony. Or during the Nauvoo temple dedication, Pres Hinckley pausing and stating he felt the presence of the Father, Son and Joseph Smith (I also have had a special experience in the Nauvoo temple during the open house).

[Gillebre]

jumping away from the idea that He may be too busy to do something (which is not my 'debate' in this reply), let's look at the other possible reason someone doesn't get an answer to the question they ask regarding the truth of the BoM/LDS Church.

Maybe, in His infinite wisdom as the Christ, the Son of God, He determines we are not truly sincere or honestly ready and willing to act appropriately on the knowledge He'd otherwise freely give us.

We read the requirements for sincerity, humility, and honesty in seeking the answer to the big question (Is it true?), yet we in our efforts to find the answer may not get it because HE decides we aren't ready for it. Why is that? Perhaps He sees that the one asking isn't entirely dedicated to the pursuit of that truth. Only He is the person with the right to say if you are or are not:

1) Humble/sincere/honest enough to fulfill the criteria needed to fulfill Moroni's promise.

2) Prepared, spiritually, with faith, to receive it.

He is the only final and ultimate authority on that search for truth, as He is the one that personally gives it; and while some like to say someone isn't humble enough or honest enough, the only way they can truly know that is revelation by the Spirit. Maybe they do really know you aren't really fulfilling all the requirements to receive an answer...but telling someone if they are or aren't doing enough or the right things to have the truth can get murky. :)

He is the one that makes that choice...and I trust Him.

[Elphaba]

You know what Hemi? I have read upwards of 100 of your posts, and am, frankly, weary of your self-righteous, simplistic assumption that YOU know better than anyone else what HE or SHE has experienced. You do not.

For example:

I could start quizzing your background and see exactly where the failures points are.

No, you could not. The ONLY person YOU can quiz is YOU. No one else.

You assume to much and do not exhibit the necessary fundamentals in receiving the Truth. I clearly see that one.

What are those fundamentals Hemi?

Let me explain some fundamentals you don’t see. You are not omniscient. You are not a mind reader. You do not have the faintest clue about another person’s journey. You do not have enough information to judge anyone other than yourself.

The ONLY person you have enough information to understand is YOU. No one else.

It took years, months, when we are spiritually prepared. Were you? No.

No Hemi. The ONLY person you can determine was spiritually prepared is YOU. No one else.

I for one understand this principle quite clearly.

No, Hemi, you do not.

The ONLY person for whom you can understand this principle clearly is YOU. No one else.

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

No, Hemi. The ONLY person you can determine was too busy, or not, to meet a member of the Godhead is YOU. No one else.

I simply don't see Him answering it upon your head.

No, Hemi. The ONLY person with which you are able to see Him answering is YOU. No one else.

Something else you failed at

No Hemi. The ONLY person you can assume failed is YOU. NO one else.

Try asking the Savior yourself and let me know when He finds the time to talk to you in person.

No, Hemi. Only YOU can discuss when He found the time to talk to YOU. No one else.

Are you starting to see the pattern?

You have such a black and white way of thinking, it is impossible for you to see the grays in anyone else’s experience that does not mirror yours.

As far as I know, you don’t know any of us personally. You certainly don’t know me, And you certainly do not know what I have or have not done to gain a testimony. By "I," I mean all of us who do not share your testimony, but who have tried to gain a testimony like yours in ways you can't possibly being to comprehend.

Please feel free to tell me about your spiritual experiences. I will listen.

But don’t presume to tell me about mine.

Elphaba

[WANDERER]

In all fairness Elphie YOU have no monopoly on being able to get inside Hemi's head and determine what he is thinking or what he knows either. The assumption that you know better than Hemi ...isn't that a grey area?