"getting Beyond a testimony" by Wallace Goddard

[skalenfehl]

It is not all based on emotion. I already explained this.

[WANDERER]

I don't think we should label people who aren't given a revelation worthless or insincere or not worthy of being answered...just that they didn't get an answer or revelation. They're obviously worthy and sincere enough to ask the question in the first place and it's likely that they'll continue to search for an answer whether they find that knowledge of truth from God in the BOM or not. They are truly seeking, just not finding. Do they deserve an answer...yes...will they get one...hopefully. I am certain that there are undeserving people who get their prayers answered therefore I concur that deserving an answer is not the issue.

[skalenfehl]

I don't think we should label people who aren't given a revelation worthless or insincere or not worthy of being answered...just that they didn't get an answer or revelation. They're obviously worthy and sincere enough to ask the question in the first place and it's likely that they'll continue to search for an answer whether they find that knowledge of truth from God in the BOM or not. They are truly seeking, just not finding. Do they deserve an answer...yes...will they get one...hopefully. I am certain that there are undeserving people who get their prayers answered therefore I concur that deserving an answer is not the issue.

I hope I did not give anyone the impression that they are worthless. There is a difference between not being worthy and being worthless. Nobody is worthless in God's sight. The worth of souls is great in His sight, but not all are worthy of His Spirit. We are all at different stages of understanding and light. Some take a few moments, some a few years to know this. There are those that take a lifetime, too.

[rameumptom]

But they haven't. When you base it all on emotion, there is plenty reason to "doubt" it. Testimonies are not based on information. They are not educated decisions. They are decisions based on emotional highs that are induced by missionaries.

I never met with the missionaries. A friend of mine invited me to play Church ball. I went, the bishop invited me into his office and explained the requirements for playing Church ball: short haircut, attend Sacrament. He did not speak of spiritual things, and I did not seek a conversion.

Nevertheless, I did not know what it was at the time, but the Spirit moved within me strongly. I cut my shoulder-length hair the very next day (a feat my father failed at getting me to do for years), and I've attended ever since. I joined without getting the discussions from the missionaries, and had to have things like tithing introduced to me at the baptismal interview.

Also, the Spirit usually doesn't work on me emotionally. It places thoughts in my head, and fills me with a certainty when I ponder a correct decision. The revelations the prophets and I've had that foretell events that have come to pass are hard to explain away as "emotional highs."

Alma 32 teaches us that the Spirit is not just an emotional high. It enlightens the mind, expands the soul, burns in the bosom (emotion), and becomes delicious to us. And D&C 9 teaches us that the Spirit will speak to our minds AND our hearts the truth of things.

Given that emotion is just one component of a spiritual experience, how can you explain it all away?

[Hemidakota]

There is no reasonable reason to believe he did. Why is it that God and Jesus never appear to anyone else? Is it really likely that Joseph's faith was that much stronger than the millions who have followed him?

They have...that is a testimony of itself. You assume to much and do not exhibit the necessary fundamentals in receiving the Truth. I clearly see that one.

Of course, but it is all nonsense. I had convinced myself as well as anyone possibly could, that the Church was true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, when I first prayed about it. I knew for certainty that God was going to reward my faithfulness with an answer of some sort. Faith unwaivering, not a drop of doubt, that was me.

I prayed all night and eventually fell asleep. After receiving no answer, I assumed I was spiritually dirty in some way - because Mormons told me that would be the only way I wouldn't receive an answer - and then went into depression for a few months. And I tried to get myself out of it by joining the Church anyway.

Your expectation is receiving that answer that day? I see your faith is wavering. That is not the approach of GOD and this did not happen to Joseph or even me. It took years, months, when we are spiritually prepared. Were you? No. If you did, you would of received that answer. Do you even have a clue how busy the Savior is?

I was assured by everyone in the Church that this was the right thing to do, because, after all, the Church was true. A year later, on my mission I met many guys who were in the same position that I was in. They never really received a hard definitive answer, but they were raised in the Church and they felt the pressures of having a testimony the way everyone else appeared to have. Instead, they just had faith that someday in the future God would reward their blind faithfulness with an answer that is undeniable. I would say 99% of all the "answers" that are talked about are easily explained as the placebo effect. Humans can induce feelings if they really want something to be true, and many people want the Church to be true, in spite of the evidence.

I could start quizzing your background and see exactly where the failures points are. But that is not the point. You missed something that was important.

For those unfamiliar with teh placebo effect... And example would be like this. People who are given water pills, yet believe they contain aspirin, will often find themselves headache free within minutes. Mormonism works in the same way. It gets people to want the Church to be true,, by telling fairy-talesque stories about preexistence, families forever, sense of being special and unique, becoming a God, being the one and only special Church that is true, etc.

So you want to test GOD? We know what happens when those who seek that one.

So, by reading this, you were onces a missionary and now stand to fight against the truth?

Here is something that Elder John A. Widtsoe regarding to receiving a testimony;

(3B-3) Specifically, what must a person do? A conviction of the truth of the gospel, a testimony, must be sought if it is to be found. It does not come as the clew from heaven. It is the result of man's eagerness to know truth. Often it requires battle with traditions, former opinions and appetites, and a long testing of the gospel by every available fact and standard. "Faith is a gift of God," but faith must be used to be of service to man. The Lord lets it rain upon the just and the unjust, but he whose field is well plowed is most benefited by the moisture from the sky.

Specifically, what must a person do in his quest for a testimony?

First, there must be a desire for truth. That is the beginning of all human progress, in school, in active life, in every human occupation. The desire to know the truth of the gospel must be insistent, constant, overwhelming, burning. It must be a driving force. A "devil-may-care" attitude will not do. Otherwise, the seeker will not pay the required price for the testimony.

A testimony comes only to those who desire it.... Desire must precede all else in the winning of a testimony.

Second, the seeker for a testimony must recognize his own limitations. He is on a royal road, traveling towards the palace of truth, in which all human good may be found. There are truths beyond the material universe. Indeed, a testimony may be said to begin with the acceptance of God, who transcends as well as encompasses material things. The seeker for a testimony feels the need of help beyond his own powers, as the astronomer uses the telescope to enlarge his natural vision. The seeker for a testimony prays to the Lord for help. Such a prayer must be as insistent and constant as the desire. They must move together as the palm and back of the hand. Then help will come. Many a man has strayed from the road because his desire has not been coupled with prayer.

Prayer must accompany desire in the quest for a testimony.

Third, an effort must be put forth to learn the gospel, to understand it, to comprehend the relationship of its principles. The gospel must be studied, otherwise no test of its truth may sanely be applied to it. That study must be wide, for the gospel is so organized that in it is a place for every truth, of every name and nature. That study must be constantly continued, for the content of the gospel is illimitable.

It is a paradox that men will gladly devote time every day for many years to learn a science or an art; yet will expect to win a knowledge of the gospel, which comprehends all sciences and arts, through perfunctory glances at books or occasional listening to sermons. The gospel should be studied more intensively than any school or college subject. They who pass opinion on the gospel without having given it intimate and careful study are not lovers of truth, and their opinions are worthless.

To secure a testimony, then, study must accompany desire and prayer.

Fourth, the gospel must be woven into the pattern of life. It must be tested in practice. The gospel must be used in life. That is the ultimate test in the winning of a testimony.

Certainly, the experience of others who have consistently obeyed gospel requirements is of value to the seeker after a testimony. Children are wise in accepting the experiences of their parents. Beginners do well to trust those who are seasoned in gospel living. But, there comes a time when every person must find out for himself, in his own daily life, the value of the gospel. A sufficient testimony comes only to him who "stands upon his own feet."

A testimony of the truth of the gospel comes, then, from: (1) Desire, (2) Prayer, (3) Study, and (4) Practice. (John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, Salt Lake City; Bookcraft, Inc., 1960., pp. 15-17.)

I had yet to find anyone that failed in not receiving an answer whether by feelings, a voice, or sight when the FATHER is ready to share it.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Hemidakota

[WANDERER]

Skalenfehl ....I understood...but I don't think He'd essentially turn down anyone that is looking for Him as not worthy enough. I don't get it.

[skalenfehl]

Skalenfehl ....I understood...but I don't think He'd essentially turn down anyone that is looking for Him as not worthy enough. I don't get it.

I've literally spoken with hundreds of people individually about the gospel. It is not difficult to discern those who are casual about their inquiries of the Lord. Those who were sincere and honest and upright always found their answer. Those who were not ready, were tried by the Lord. God sees fit to try us and test us. We are a people of law and sacrifice. Where much is given, much is required.

[GoodK]

Do you even have a clue how busy the Savior is?

You can't be serious. You really think the Savior is busy?

Why would a Being with his powers ever be busy?

I think I am beginning to see the disconnect here.

Edited June 11, 2008 by GoodK

[GoodK]

I've literally spoken with hundreds of people individually about the gospel. It is not difficult to discern those who are casual about their inquiries of the Lord. Those who were sincere and honest and upright always found their answer. Those who were not ready, were tried by the Lord. God sees fit to try us and test us. We are a people of law and sacrifice. Where much is given, much is required.

You hold all the cards with this sort of reasoning. If someone gets an answer that the church is true, then they were sincere and honest. If they don't get an answer, they were not sincere and honest and upright enough.

Are those really the only possibilities? You don't think you can convince yourself that something is true or that you are feeling something independently?

[Hemidakota]

Tell me, how does the Holy Ghost communicate with members who are seeking answers?

Yes! There are times I would not expect the Savior or even Heavenly Father to stop what HE is doing to pay homage over my prayers. Some come later than expected for a wise reason.

[skalenfehl]

You hold all the cards with this sort of reasoning. If someone gets an answer that the church is true, then they were sincere and honest. If they don't get an answer, they were not sincere and honest and upright enough.

Are those really the only possibilities? You don't think you can convince yourself that something is true or that you are feeling something?

You know, I reread my statement and tried looking at it from your perspective. It does seem that those are the only two possibilities. I will only add this, Gordon B. Hinckley once said, and I paraphrase, that this church is either true or it is false. We are either right or we are wrong. We fall or we stand on the foundation upon which we are built. So rereading my post, yes, GoodK, those are the only two possibilities. I do not take my salvation lightly one iota and wish everyone could feel what I feel. I wish I could shout it from the rooftops and that everyone could see what I see, but it is for each person to discover it personally.

[WANDERER]

I've witnessed to others. My interpretation was that I just didn't know what impact it had or might have on their life later on or on another person's life. Not that they weren't worthy. If anything I think Jesus went looking for the most unworthy. He that hath ears let him hear...no unworthy clause happening...He prayed that everyone would get an answer from God. Everyone has ears.

[skalenfehl]

GoodK, I found the quote from President Hinckley in an interview:

Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith.

[GoodK]

Tell me, how does the Holy Ghost communicate with members who are seeking answers?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. What do you mean how?

You asked me if I was a member, now I think it would be fair for me to ask you a question. How old are you?

Yes! There are times I would not expect the Savior or even Heavenly Father to stop what HE is doing to pay homage over my prayers. Some come later than expected for a wise reason.

So you are saying that the Jesus can be too busy to answer prayers promptly. What on Earth could he be busy with? Isn't being busy a matter of having too many tasks at hand and not enough time?

And again, how old are you?

[skalenfehl]

I've witnessed to others. My interpretation was that I just didn't know what impact it had or might have on their life later on or on another person's life. Not that they weren't worthy. If anything I think Jesus went looking for the most unworthy. He that hath ears let him hear...no unworthy clause happening...He prayed that everyone would get an answer from God. Everyone has ears.

We learn line upon line and precept upon precept based on our understanding and diligence in seeking truth. Worthiness is a factor, but that does not mean that God doesn't look out for us. Even the sparrows and the lilies of the field are taken care of by the Lord.

[Hemidakota]

Wanderer...ok, now I see what you are trying to say. It goes back to attunement of oneself to the Spirit in receiving that answer. There is a problem with being unworthy in attempting to receive an answer when you are in the end hold accounted for it. I for one understand this principle quite clearly.

I had a discount in the beginning in seeking for an answer and did some daily analytical observation to see where I had failed. Making those necessary changes to conform to HIS standards and willing to make those sacrifices. Finally did receive that answer.

[KosherXMorg]

You can't be serious. You really think the Savior is busy?

Why would a Being with his powers ever be busy?

I think I am beginning to see the disconnect here.

I thought that's what the purpose of the disembodied Holy Spirit was... so God could be everywhere at the same time. So if he's off making another planet the Holy Ghost, not bound by a physical body, can be there??? So how could he ever be busy with the Holy Ghost floating about?

[GoodK]

You know, I reread my statement and tried looking at it from your perspective. It does seem that those are the only two possibilities. I will only add this, Gordon B. Hinckley once said, and I paraphrase, that this church is either true or it is false. We are either right or we are wrong. We fall or we stand on the foundation upon which we are built. So rereading my post, yes, GoodK, those are the only two possibilities. I do not take my salvation lightly one iota and wish everyone could feel what I feel. I wish I could shout it from the rooftops and that everyone could see what I see, but it is for each person to discover it personally.

I know the feeling that you describe in the part I bolded... I really do. I have felt both the conviction that I had discovered truth and the sadness that others had not.

[KosherXMorg]

Wanderer...ok, now I see what you are trying to say. It goes back to attunement of oneself to the Spirit in receiving that answer. There is a problem with being unworthy in attempting to receive an answer when you are in the end hold accounted for it. I for one understand this principle quite clearly.

I had a discount in the beginning in seeking for an answer and did some daily analytical observation to see where I had failed. Making those necessary changes to conform to HIS standards and willing to make those sacrifices. Finally did receive that answer.

What can a non-member who doesn't know the law, thus not accountable under it, do to be worthy?

I love this logic, "Just do what we tell you are the commandments and the right things to do, and then you'll get an answer". What if I go that rout, get, baptized, endowed and sealed, and when I finally receive an answer it's that the LDS church wasn't right the whole time? I've wasted at least a year of my life pursuing something that doesn't profit me anything.

[WANDERER]

Lilies, sparrows....but not worth an answer or the Spirit...the Spirit (even the telestials get that much).

[skalenfehl]

I know the feeling that you describe in the part I bolded... I really do. I have felt both the conviction that I had discovered truth and the sadness that others had not.

Thank you for understanding. Even where I sit, I could not begin to understand what many prophets and apostles understand. It would raise confusion and too many questions in my mind that I know I will be able to understand as my journey of understanding takes me there, again, line upon line and precept upon precept. It's not that we all believe in different things so much as we are all at different stages of truth.

[skalenfehl]

Lilies, sparrows....but not worth an answer or the Spirit...the Spirit (even the telestials get that much).

We are all worth the answer, but we must by worthy of the answer and also live worthily of the answer. We will be judged by our works, but also by the desires of our hearts. I hope I have not put you off. I'm endeavoring to explain it in the most simplest and humble terms. Respectfully.

[Hemidakota]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. What do you mean how?

You asked me if I was a member, now I think it would be fair for me to ask you a question. How old are you?

So you are saying that the Jesus can be too busy to answer prayers promptly. What on Earth could he be busy with? Isn't being busy a matter of having too many tasks at hand and not enough time?

And again, how old are you?

In all fairness, check the profile for any age of members here if truthfully listed.

There is a purpose in asking that Holy Ghost Comm question, without any real world understanding how the Holy Spirit communicates you will not find answers that you are seeking for.

Being busy, I guess you never met any member of the Godhead. If you did, you would understand the point.

Further clarity to this busyness, there was an Apostle who was the President of the Quorum of the Twelve who went to the temple in Salt Lake when he found out the president of the church died while traveling. His visitation to the Celestial room was to inquire before the Lord on how to proceed on selection of the next prophet. After lengthy stay in the room, the prophet thought the Lord was busy and left. As he walked the hallway that exited the Celestial room, the apostle finally met the Savor face-to-face. It was a valuable lesson for me also, when we asked the Godhead for special answer, I don't expect them to appear at once.

[WANDERER]

There is a problem with being unworthy in attempting to receive an answer when you are in the end hold accounted for it.

Hemi perhaps...but you will be held accountable...whether you receive that answer or not.

[Hemidakota]

I know the feeling that you describe in the part I bolded... I really do. I have felt both the conviction that I had discovered truth and the sadness that others had not.

Glad to hear it.