"getting Beyond a testimony" by Wallace Goddard

[Hemidakota]

Meridian Magazine :: Myth of the Mont: Getting Beyond a Testimony

Snippet:

Often we approach testimony in an intellectual way. We study a doctrine, check it against scripture, consider its plausibility, and ask for affirmation. We must set aside our stubborn demand for proof and full knowledge. We must have a suspension of self-will and disbelief if we are to grow faith and spiritual knowledge. As we do this, we are rewarded with heavenly aha’s. The doctrine begins to swell within us, enlarge our souls, enlighten our understandings, and becomes delicious to us (See Alma 32).

[AlexanderX]

In other words, facts and information mean nothing. Rely on feelings.

This isn't how the rational human mind was designed to process and accept belief in anything.

Is it any wonder the Church is having a hard time keeping its members? Emotion is temporary, and active members remain active so long as they can keep riding that emotional high. Routine testimony meetings were designed to keep that emotion at the forefront. But emotion blinds, it doesn't enlighten. And most people end up researching things for themselves. Rational minds need this.

[skalenfehl]

Yes, rely on your feelings. God has said so.

D&C 9: 8-9

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

The church is losing members because they are losing their testimonies or never had one to begin with. We must continually strengthen our testimonies and nourish them by feasting on Christ's words.

[AlexanderX]

That is circular reasoning. Joseph Smith is responsible for D&C, not God. We know enough today about human psychology to know feelings are not reliable. they cloud judgment, they don't enhance it.

The church is losing members because they are losing their testimonies or never had one to begin with.

No member has a testimony in that sense. They have a conviction and belief. A testimony to "know" something is true requires that it be true to begin with. People who leave the faith come to a knowledge that the Church isn't true. And they are the ones basing their conclusions on something more reliable than feelings.

We must continually strengthen our testimonies and nourish them by feasting on Christ's words.

Most Christians today feast on his words, yet feel just as strongly that the LDS Church isn't true.

[Hemidakota]

Are you a member of the church?

[skalenfehl]

Joseph Smith is as responsible for the D&C as Luke was for recording his gospel and the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament written to Theophilus. And yet many Christians do believe and have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the LDS church. My testimony is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that his revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants are true. It is also my testimony that the LDS church is true.

[Hemidakota]

Your last two statements is the question I asked GOD.

[AlexanderX]

Joseph Smith is as responsible for the D&C as Luke was for recording his gospel and the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament written to Theophilus.

No argument from me on that. God wasn't responsible for either.

And yet many Christians do believe and have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the LDS church.

LDS Christians do.

My testimony is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that his revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants are true. It is also my testimony that the LDS church is true.

Yea, I know. And it is a testimony based on feelings, not information. As HiJolly said, "information" takes the back seat in the LDS method of conversion. But investigators are not told this ahead of time. They are not told upfront that they are going to be expected to make a life-changing decision based on minimal information and maximal emotion.

For example, the failure to tell black investigators about the priesthood ban, is dishonest and immoral. Or the fact that Spencer Kimball stood up in conference and told stories about modern indians becoming whiter in their skin tone, because they were becoming affiliated with the Church. This isn't anti-Mormon propaganda. It is recorded on the Church website for crying out loud. Are we supposed to listen to what the leaders say or aren't we? We know now that indians don't become whiter because of the gospel. We know this. In fact the latest apologetic maneuvering says the Book of Mormon ("white and delightsome")wasn't even referring to skin color; it was referring to a spiritual purity, or whatever.

If you think it doesn't matter to the investigators, and you really believe the spirit makes all the difference, then you should have nothing to fear in telling them the truth. But missionaries don't tell them because they know this will delay their efforts.

[AlexanderX]

Your last two statements is the question I asked GOD.

But most people who ask God this get the negative response. So either God is lying or the method is flawed.

[KosherXMorg]

While I don't reject the Book of Mormon as it seems AlexanderX does. I believe he is right about study and not relying solely on feelings. Paul commended the Bareans because they studied the scriptures to see if what the apostles were preaching was true. As I study the Bible and Book of Mormon (given to confound false doctrines) I find the LDS church wanting. One thing commendable about the other Book of Mormon believing churches is they invite you to study their doctrines based on scripture and not to rely just on feelings. Of course I pray everyday that I will be lead in the right path, and if God directs back to the LDS church I will go, but I'm not going to rely on my subjective feelings alone.

Edited June 11, 2008 by KosherXMorg
spelling

[Hemidakota]

But most people who ask God this get the negative response. So either God is lying or the method is flawed.

Exactly how did Joseph obtain his answers? Or perhaps your assumption is flawed.

Those WHO DO ASK and have the desire, hope, with sincerety and humbleness will receive an answer that matches his/her spiritual maturity. Anything outside of this will not receive anything. Get it?

[Hemidakota]

Joseph Smith is as responsible for the D&C as Luke was for recording his gospel and the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament written to Theophilus. And yet many Christians do believe and have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the LDS church. My testimony is that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that his revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants are true. It is also my testimony that the LDS church is true.

Just about any writer is responsible for their own writings of what is received from either from the Spirit or journal/letters to the membership.

[skalenfehl]

Yea, I know. And it is a testimony based on feelings, not information. As HiJolly said, "information" takes the back seat in the LDS method of conversion.

It is based on both my feelings and information. The gospel of Christ and the restoration of His church is laid before us from the foundation of the world through Isaiah and through today. Let he who has ears hear and who has eyes see. The Lord is not found in great signs and thunders, but in a still small voice. I know that this is true. It is a testimony based on fact. The fact is that Jesus Christ lives. He has called apostles and prophets and has restored His church and functions today.

1 Kings 19

Edited June 11, 2008 by skalenfehl

[skalenfehl]

But most people who ask God this get the negative response. So either God is lying or the method is flawed.

Or they are not worthy of their answer. Those who truly seek will do everything they can to be worthy of the companionship of the Spirit. They will be ready to act upon their answer and follow the way if it is shown to them. Else the Lord would not answer them only to condemn them for not adhering to it.

[Hemidakota]

Feelings, information, or knoweldge. I spoke on this last Sunday in a Sacrament meeting.

[WANDERER]

The difference between objective knowledge and subjective understanding is a huge gap.

Quote: The doctrine begins to swell within us, enlarge our souls, enlighten our understandings, and becomes delicious to us.

Absolutely. Knowledge is better when it is meaningful. By all means: get the knowledge. And if conviction is involved and belief is involved: the enlightenment and the understanding and a practical application for it can only enrich your life.

Chicken or egg? Is it really that neat..first comes one and then the other...not necessarily. A linear method may be flawed.

[AlexanderX]

Or they are not worthy of their answer.

That is a convenient rationalization for Mormons who are left to wonder why nobody else follows their method and conclusion. But in any event, this is not what missionaries tell prospective converts. They assure them that they will get an answer. They never tell them that they have to be worthy of it. Instead they tell them it is about faith.

Those who truly seek will do everything they can to be worthy of the companionship of the Spirit. They will be ready to act upon their answer and follow the way if it is shown to them. Else the Lord would not answer them only to condemn them for not adhering to it.

This is just more apologetic nonsense that doesn't add up. People receive "good feelings" of negation that are identical those good feelings of confirmation. It all boils down to the fact that people will believe what they want to believe. This is an established fact. People who really want the Church to be true, will induce good feelings and convince themselves of it, depite the data to the contrary.

[skalenfehl]

I served a mission in Germany almost 20 years ago, and yes, I did tell people that they needed to pray and be worthy of praying. They needed to be sincere. Why would God answer someone who was not sincere?

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but they do not take away from the fact that there are many people who have received a testimony; a knowledge of truth from God as promised in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. God lives and He does answer prayers.

[skalenfehl]

It all boils down to the fact that people will believe what they want to believe. This is an established fact. People who really want the Church to be true, will induce good feelings and convince themselves of it, depite the data to the contrary.

The same is true of people who don't want to believe. They can and do find holes in anything, even truth.

[AlexanderX]

Exactly how did Joseph obtain his answers? Or perhaps your assumption is flawed.

There is no reasonable reason to believe he did. Why is it that God and Jesus never appear to anyone else? Is it really likely that Joseph's faith was that much stronger than the millions who have followed him?

Those WHO DO ASK and have the desire, hope, with sincerety and humbleness will receive an answer that matches his/her spiritual maturity. Anything outside of this will not receive anything. Get it?

Of course, but it is all nonsense. I had convinced myself as well as anyone possibly could, that the Church was true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, when I first prayed about it. I knew for certainty that God was going to reward my faithfulness with an answer of some sort. Faith unwaivering, not a drop of doubt, that was me.

I prayed all night and eventually fell asleep. After receiving no answer, I assumed I was spiritually dirty in some way - because Mormons told me that would be the only way I wouldn't receive an answer - and then went into depression for a few months. And I tried to get myself out of it by joining the Church anyway.

I was assured by everyone in the Church that this was the right thing to do, because, after all, the Church was true. A year later, on my mission I met many guys who were in the same position that I was in. They never really received a hard definitive answer, but they were raised in the Church and they felt the pressures of having a testimony the way everyone else appeared to have. Instead, they just had faith that someday in the future God would reward their blind faithfulness with an answer that is undeniable. I would say 99% of all the "answers" that are talked about are easily explained as the placebo effect. Humans can induce feelings if they really want something to be true, and many people want the Church to be true, in spite of the evidence.

For those unfamiliar with teh placebo effect... And example would be like this. People who are given water pills, yet believe they contain aspirin, will often find themselves headache free within minutes. Mormonism works in the same way. It gets people to want the Church to be true,, by telling fairy-talesque stories about preexistence, families forever, sense of being special and unique, becoming a God, being the one and only special Church that is true, etc.

[AlexanderX]

The same is true of people who don't want to believe. They can and do find holes in anything, even truth.

True, but I wanted to believe. I still do. I was trying to believe for my entire 20 year membership. But I also think it would be cool if Santa Claus was real.

It cannot be argued that I was looking for reasons not to. Hell, I spent a good portion of my life working for apologetic efforts like FAIR. I think there are still a few articles up on their website that I authored years ago.

[skalenfehl]

I'm sorry you experienced, this. It still does not take away from those of us who undoubtedly and unequivocally received an answer directly from God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[AlexanderX]

Why would God answer someone who was not sincere?

The question is, why would God give conflicting answers using the exact same emotional means, to two different groups of people?

[AlexanderX]

It still does not take away from those of us who undoubtedly and unequivocally received an answer directly from God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

But they haven't. When you base it all on emotion, there is plenty reason to "doubt" it. Testimonies are not based on information. They are not educated decisions. They are decisions based on emotional highs that are induced by missionaries.

[rameumptom]

That is a convenient rationalization for Mormons who are left to wonder why nobody else follows their method and conclusion. But in any event, this is not what missionaries tell prospective converts. They assure them that they will get an answer. They never tell them that they have to be worthy of it. Instead they tell them it is about faith.

This is just more apologetic nonsense that doesn't add up. People receive "good feelings" of negation that are identical those good feelings of confirmation. It all boils down to the fact that people will believe what they want to believe. This is an established fact. People who really want the Church to be true, will induce good feelings and convince themselves of it, depite the data to the contrary.

Which is why I suppose David Whitmer, Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery saw and witnessed the gold plates and angel? They obviously wanted a "feel good" experience, and got caught up in a mass frenzied state of mind?

This obviously occurred also at the Kirtland Temple dedication, when dozens of people saw angels and witnessed many spiritual experiences.

To discount one method in which the Spirit works, while ignoring the other methods as evidences, is disingenuous at best.