Abortion

[Traveler]

In the historical case of Roe verses Wade, the Supreme Court did not come to a conclusion in the case based on any of the right to life or woman’s rights. The issue argued and discussed hung on only one concept. The concept that decided Roe verses Wade was a definition of Human life. The ruling followed a couple of assumptions. First that during the first trimester there is not enough evidence to conclusively demonstrate that the life inside the woman’s womb is human. And second that without conclusive evidence abortions will be allowed until such a time that human life can be proven.

The problem today is that the Supreme Court never indicated what constitutes human life or how it should be defined. In fact there is no legal definition that I know of concerning human life. So what is a human life? For example, what conclusive proof do we have that the sever handicap (both physical and mentally handicap) are in fact human. Lets take this one more step – how would you go about proving conclusively that you are human? The point is, without a clear definition of what is human; it is impossible to legally demonstrate what is and what is not human.

How about this definition? If a living organism has natural (un-engineered) human DNA and exhibits unique behavior know to the human species. It is human. This definition could exclude many handicap individuals. But could we say that for sure such a life form is human?

This brings me to a resent medical study I read about over the BBC network. The Create Health Clinic in London has been using three-dimensional ultra-sound imaging to study unborn children in the womb. Prof. Stuart Campbell has concluded that a normal “12 week old fetus” exhibits unique behavior known only among human children. During the last 2 trimesters it has been demonstrated that the behavior and activity of normal children in the womb is far more complex (and human) than previously imagined.

So why is the no effort in the courts to correct their previous mistake concerning human life in the womb? Could it be that on this issue that bigots, willing to sacrifice human life to further their cause, have seized political power and will not relinquish it short of a revolt?

The Traveler

[porterrockwell]

Actually, as was stated last night on Scarborough Country, because of extensive, progressive research available to us now, the Roe v. Wade is crumbling and is so close to be eliminated that it could be in the near future.

The fact is, it is human life that is in there, and abortion is murder. However, feminists no longer can lie and use the system to their advantage just because they don't want the responsibility of their actions. Too much proof is going to come forth to keep Roe v. Wade up....as should happen.

[Faerie]

I don't think it's going to "crumble" anytime soon..there are WAY too many people in this country who firmly believe in the right to abort....maybe if Bush stays President..but any Democrat in power will keep abortion legal as long as humanly possible...too many votes are based on that!

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 16 2004, 01:53 PM

I don't think it's going to "crumble" anytime soon..there are WAY too many people in this country who firmly believe in the right to abort....

Possibly true, but it would be a step in the right direction if the laws were tightened and the time scale for permitting an abortion were reduced.

One step at a time after all. A complete ban is not likely, but sucess may be had at reducing the sheer number of abortions.

[Faerie]

it sickened me that the 9th district court of appeals said the partial birth abortion ban was unconstitutional....just the thought of what's involved makes me want to vomit..

i agree..the laws need to be tightened and restricted....

[Maureen]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Jul 16 2004, 12:47 PM

The fact is, it is human life that is in there, and abortion is murder.

porter - Do you view abortion as black and white - all abortions are murder? Or do you see some leeway in certain cases, such as if the mother’s life is in danger. I'm just curious.

M.

[porterrockwell]

I actually get asked that a lot, in that case I think it should be left up to the mother. But in most instances it is murder, I don't care what society says, those are children. To insist that one is not a human is deny that humans progress. In which case you could and would have to admit by that standard that until one can fully(emotionally, physically, mentally) contribute to society, one is not human. Life is life, and if you take life away against it's will(not counting the death penalty, which I am for) that's murder folks. Hope these freakin liberals will feel the full effect when they stand before God and no partisan agenda schpeel can save them from Judgement.

[Guest curvette]

The abortion issue is so interesting. I don't understand how anyone can think that it's okay to destroy a viable fetus. Babies are being born and surviving at a much earlier gestational age than in the past. I consider third trimester and late second trimester abortions on par with infaniticide. It's hard to understand how anyone can look at a preemie and think of them as subhuman. I don't put first trimester abortions in the same category. I don't approve of it, but I don't think of it in the same way. A huge percentage of pregnancies terminate themselves before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Most of us moms have miscarried a fertilized egg a time or two and didn't even know it.

[Faerie]

maureen..to answer your question ala "how the church sees it"

the church is opposed to abortion w/ the exception of rape, incest, and the mother's health...and even w/ those exceptions the woman is counseled to pray about it and take it up w/ the Lord...

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 16 2004, 03:25 PM

maureen..to answer your question ala "how the church sees it"

the church is opposed to abortion w/ the exception of rape, incest, and the mother's health...and even w/ those exceptions the woman is counseled to pray about it and take it up w/ the Lord...

I know how the LDS church sees it; I was just curious about porter's view. Thanks anyway!

M.

[porterrockwell]

i see it pretty much the same way maureen, however, we have someone close to my family who was raped and she still had the child and gave it to a family who had to adopt because they could not have children....so I believe that there are those out there who are so charitable that they still would not take the precious life of a child, even in this case.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Jul 16 2004, 07:54 PM

i see it pretty much the same way maureen, however, we have someone close to my family who was raped and she still had the child and gave it to a family who had to adopt because they could not have children....so I believe that there are those out there who are so charitable that they still would not take the precious life of a child, even in this case.

Wow, I think that's great... very selfless!

I'm with Curvette on this one. I'm against abortion in most cases, besides those exceptions already listed here. I can deal with women having the right to choose during the first trimester though - although I don't see how anyone can do it. Late term abortions are absolutely disgustingly wrong!

[Faerie]

i don't think i could even agree w/ 1st trimester abortions...i had some very early scans and i'm sorry...i saw that little heart beating away 170 beats per minute and i saw that little booger wiggling around...it's a baby...not some useless piece of flesh...by the time a woman discovers she's conceived the heart's chambers are almost fully formed, the brain is developing at a rapid speed, the nervous system and spine are almost recognizable in development...it's not just a random mass of tissue cells....

but that was just my experience...when i first saw that heart beating it sealed my opinion forever and ever that abortion is wrong aside from those 3 things...and i find it VERY admirable that a woman would still give that child to a needy family...very selfless indeed :)

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 16 2004, 09:15 PM

i don't think i could even agree w/ 1st trimester abortions...i had some very early scans and i'm sorry...i saw that little heart beating away 170 beats per minute and i saw that little booger wiggling around...it's a baby...not some useless piece of flesh...by the time a woman discovers she's conceived the heart's chambers are almost fully formed, the brain is developing at a rapid speed, the nervous system and spine are almost recognizable in development...it's not just a random mass of tissue cells....

but that was just my experience...when i first saw that heart beating it sealed my opinion forever and ever that abortion is wrong aside from those 3 things...and i find it VERY admirable that a woman would still give that child to a needy family...very selfless indeed :)

It breaks my heart too to think of any fetus being aborted. But I don't think it should be illegal because I think it is wrong. Like I said, I could never do it, and I don't think it should be legal anytime other than the first trimester. At least at that time the fetus cannot feel pain. (I read this somewhere a while back and am assuming it was true. If anyone knows differently, please let me know.)

[Faerie]

i don't know about that...maybe in the very first few weeks..but the nervous system develops pretty rapidly..i'd have to pull out a few books to see when it's fully completed...

[Traveler]

Originally posted by curvette@Jul 16 2004, 02:54 PM

The abortion issue is so interesting. I don't understand how anyone can think that it's okay to destroy a viable fetus. Babies are being born and surviving at a much earlier gestational age than in the past. I consider third trimester and late second trimester abortions on par with infaniticide. It's hard to understand how anyone can look at a preemie and think of them as subhuman. I don't put first trimester abortions in the same category. I don't approve of it, but I don't think of it in the same way. A huge percentage of pregnancies terminate themselves before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Most of us moms have miscarried a fertilized egg a time or two and didn't even know it.

I agree it is interesting - it is also one issue upon which you and I agree. Thank you for your input

The Traveler

[Traveler]

There is one more thought I would add to those that have been given. It appears to me that as we look out into the universe that life is both precious and rare. Perhaps because life seem to be so abundant on our planet we get a skewed impression of life in the universe. Most of the planets even within our solar system are completely without life (only one exception) and it is likely that most stars anchor a solar system without life. Even if there is life scattered throughout the distant reaches of the universe, as individual humans we are individually unique.

Yet in the creation of life we pass on into eternity, a part of ourselves in new life. I am most confused with the mentality that having created a life like their own, that is not duplicated anywhere in this vast universe, would turn on themself and in full understanding as an intelligent being - seek to destroy that life that is most like themself. I am dumbfounded by any individual that seeks to destroy their own children for no other reason other than. “I did it because I can.”

Some have compared abortion to murder - but for me I can think of no greater evil than someone that would destroy their own children - their own creation of life, life that preserves their DNA, and do it without conscience because of their lust of self and personal greed.

The Traveler

[DisRuptive1]

From what I've learned babies are asleep the whole time that they are in the womb up until around the time that the woman goes into labor, although I'm unsure if it actually wakes up even then also. So a baby probably wouldn't feel anymore pain than you would if someone pinched you in the middle of the night.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jul 17 2004, 08:25 PM

From what I've learned babies are asleep the whole time that they are in the womb up until around the time that the woman goes into labor, although I'm unsure if it actually wakes up even then also. So a baby probably wouldn't feel anymore pain than you would if someone pinched you in the middle of the night.

Although fetuses do sleep a lot, they do not sleep all the time.

From Discovery Health: "At 32 weeks, your baby sleeps 90 to 95 percent of the day. Closer to birth, your baby sleeps 85 to 90 percent of the time, the same as a newborn."

I think you should read up on how they do late term, or partial birth abortions, if you think it would feel like a pinch. I won't go into it, but you can find some very graphic descriptions of how they do it on the internet. It's absolutely barbaric and will no doubt be disturbing to you! But I think there are some things that people should know about, even if it is unpleasant. You might not want to look at the photos.

Although I've never been a fan of abortions, I thought that although I disagreed with them, women should still have a choice. But after I saw what one consisted of, my mind was changed. That and carrying one for 9 months and feeling my child kick and move (sometimes strongly) beginning when it was only 5 months old.

[Faerie]

amen shanstress...

i can tell when my baby is awake and when he/she's asleep by listening to the heartbeat...always faster and baby moving around a lot while i'm laying down after a while...

i'll go into descriptions...the reason why it's called "partial birth" is because labor is induced, the child is delivered feet first until only the head remains inside..then the dr pierces the back of the baby's skull immediately ending that child's life...most of these abortions are occurring after 22-24 weeks when a child CAN survive outside the womb w/ medical assistance...

THAT is murder...pure and simple there is NO WAY anyone can justify that....

[DisRuptive1]

I was always under the impression that the baby doesn't die until the brain is removed. How many people have you heard of that had were stabbed in the head and survived? It's the same with a baby.

What you failed to mention, however, is that the baby's head is punctured with a sharp vacuum. The vacuum then sucks out the brain of the baby and then the doctor collapses the baby's head and it comes out dead. Hence no murder, by definition, is taking place as the baby hasn't been completely born and hasn't, according to law, been considered alive yet.

Just because the baby moves does not mean it's awake. As you moms can attest, the baby moves a whole lot more than the 5-15% a day awake time that it has. For those of you who don't understand, the baby is not complete, it is not a full human, it is missing parts and pieces. One of those is a thing in the brain which everyone that's been born has which keeps us from moving in our sleep. It shuts our body down, so we don't strangle our spouses in bed or hurt ourselves by banging up against the walls when we have dreams. It's possible to witness this if you have a very terrifying dream and come out of the dream very abrubtly. It might be hard at first to move your body or certain parts of it until your body realizes it's awake and allows you to move again.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jul 18 2004, 02:27 AM

I was always under the impression that the baby doesn't die until the brain is removed. How many people have you heard of that had were stabbed in the head and survived? It's the same with a baby.

What you failed to mention, however, is that the baby's head is punctured with a sharp vacuum. The vacuum then sucks out the brain of the baby and then the doctor collapses the baby's head and it comes out dead. Hence no murder, by definition, is taking place as the baby hasn't been completely born and hasn't, according to law, been considered alive yet.

Just because the baby moves does not mean it's awake. As you moms can attest, the baby moves a whole lot more than the 5-15% a day awake time that it has. For those of you who don't understand, the baby is not complete, it is not a full human, it is missing parts and pieces. One of those is a thing in the brain which everyone that's been born has which keeps us from moving in our sleep. It shuts our body down, so we don't strangle our spouses in bed or hurt ourselves by banging up against the walls when we have dreams. It's possible to witness this if you have a very terrifying dream and come out of the dream very abrubtly. It might be hard at first to move your body or certain parts of it until your body realizes it's awake and allows you to move again.

I'm not going to get into this topic, as it's a very upsetting one to me. However, I hope you will continue to educate yourself on this subject. I pray that you will come to a different conclusion.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jul 18 2004, 03:27 AM

I was always under the impression that the baby doesn't die until the brain is removed. How many people have you heard of that had were stabbed in the head and survived? It's the same with a baby.

What you failed to mention, however, is that the baby's head is punctured with a sharp vacuum. The vacuum then sucks out the brain of the baby and then the doctor collapses the baby's head and it comes out dead. Hence no murder, by definition, is taking place as the baby hasn't been completely born and hasn't, according to law, been considered alive yet.

Just because the baby moves does not mean it's awake. As you moms can attest, the baby moves a whole lot more than the 5-15% a day awake time that it has. For those of you who don't understand, the baby is not complete, it is not a full human, it is missing parts and pieces. One of those is a thing in the brain which everyone that's been born has which keeps us from moving in our sleep. It shuts our body down, so we don't strangle our spouses in bed or hurt ourselves by banging up against the walls when we have dreams. It's possible to witness this if you have a very terrifying dream and come out of the dream very abrubtly. It might be hard at first to move your body or certain parts of it until your body realizes it's awake and allows you to move again.

OMG MAN!!!

i left out the "vacuum" part because I could not bring myself to type those awful, hideous words...

and as i said, i can tell when my baby is awake and when he/she's asleep based on heartrate...also there are u/s pictures of babies inutero with their eyes open and movin around, blinking and shunning light...

"the baby is not complete"...i'm sorry hon, but around 12-13 weeks gestation a baby is COMPLETELY 100% formed..no new body parts are grown, no new organs are formed...everything is perfectly formed, just immature...a baby is MOST CERTAINLY complete while inutero after this point...to say that because the baby isn't completely born yet is a justifyable reason to SUCK ITS BRAIN OUT is not only barbaric but almost satanic...THAT CHILD could survive if the doctor didn't hold its head inside the mother's vagina....

and i agree w/ shan, i don't think we should continue this discussion as i'm about to whip out a can of something and go hormonal on you..lol

[porterrockwell]

I'm a dude and seeing that someone could even describe that attrocity(almost brings me to tears) and justify it as not being a murderous act makes me wanna throw up... WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!!! I agree with Shan and others, although I haven't had the opportunity to have a child(although I can't waith for one personally), I know how important that process of birth is to our Plan that God has layed before us. It's murder, abortion is killing someone and excuse my french but those Liberal ######es need to get a political backhand and nice tall glass of shut the hell up. I believe in choices, but part of that choice is to stand up and fight for what I KNOW is right. I also agree, enough about this topic.....

[DisRuptive1]

I never said the act WASN'T murderous, I said that the law of the land says that it's legal to do because you can't legally murder someone who's not alive. The country is not run by the church, so it doesn't matter what the church believes is and isn't murder, and it doesn't matter what the church believes about abortion. What matters is what the leaders of our country think. If you have such a problem then do something about it. You live in a country where you're allowed to make a stand and, with petitions, even put your own laws into effect, with enough votes of course.

Faerie, lol, you're funny. I can't understand how vacuum is so awful unless you only mouth the words.

And all you people need to grow up. How do you plan to get something changed if you're afraid to talk about it. It's the truth, it's what happens. You need to deal with it, you need to talk about it. And until you can get over the fact that baby's heads are being punctured with vacuums and having their brains sucked out, then you'll never be able to talk to any politicians about getting partial-birth abortions banned.