NormalMormon questions about the priesthood.

[Vanhin]

Hello NormalMormon,

Your 1st question was of a sensitive nature concerning sacred temple rites. You know what you asked, so I will offer the following answer.

:mad:I was just hoping some of you could offer insight on a few things that I just can't seem to get out of my head.

It is simply not true about choosing to leave some behind. There is no scriptural support for anything like that, and I wouldn't believe something that is not true. We do not know all things, and somethings are only understood by the Spirit. I would suggest that you sit down and ask a member of the temple presidency your temple related questions. Many people don't know this, but that is part of their responsibility, to answer such questions in the temple. For the most part, these topics are offlimits outside of the temple because of their sacred nature.

Your remaining questions are fine and I will attempt to help you with those.

2. If God were to call for polygamy to be necessary again, and the current women who are married to their husbands didn't want to follow through and allow their husbands to get sealed to another woman, then would they not be following God? Like, would it be like those who didn't follow Moses?

This is kind of a fruitless discussion since plural marriage is not in practice at the moment, and it's not even a subject of our current curriculum at Church, however, our scriptures do have something on this. :)

And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. (D&C 132:61)

So, who must give her consent before a man can enter plural marriage?

3. I still can't grasp that women can't hold the priesthood. It doesn't make any sense at all to me. I already started a thread on this earlier to try and get explanation...but it just frustrates me. The more and more I hear that "worthy males" will become "Gods" and call their "wives" to become godesses, the more I want to puke. Do you think that this will ever change as it did with blacks?

You have clearly received some misinformation. I don't know where you are hearing that 'worthy males" will become "Gods" and call their "wives" to become godesses' so much. Not everything that members of the Church say, including leaders, is doctrine. Somethings are just someone's speculation. On the matter of our eternal reward, however, the scriptures have this to say:

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. (D&C 132:19-21)

Being sealed to our spouse is the last ordinance of salvation that we receive in mortality. It is prerequisite to us achieving our greatest potential. "...neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." (1 Cor. 11:11). Notice also that "gods" is spelled with a lower case "g" in the scriptures above. That has significance.

The priesthood is not for blessing our own lives, but for serving others, especially our family members. Without the blessings of the priesthood, none of us have a prayer's chance of returning to dwell with our Father and His Christ. To priesthood holders, the Lord has warned us of the unrighteous use of preisthood authority. It's a long read, but it will help in this conversation:

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. (D&C 121:36-46)

I know I didn't just single handedly solve all your issues. :) But I hope I helped get some correct information in your hands. Feel free to ask any follow-up questions if you like.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

If we plan to dwell in HIS presence we better do what HE did...

We are destined and foreordained to become like God, and unless we do become like Him we will never be permitted to dwell with Him. When we become like Him you will find that we will be presented before Him in the form in which we were created, male and female.-Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 276, June 12, 1898

[NormalMormon]

Funny how we can't even talk about our faith in our own forums.

I understand most of it. Only you still didn't answer....

Why can't WOMEN have the priesthood?

[Hemidakota]

That is like saying, why can't men have child birth!

[Canuck Mormon]

Funny how we can't even talk about our faith in our own forums.

We can talk about our faith, but cannot discuss what happens in the Temple, as we have promised not to.

As to why women cannot hold the Priesthood, I'm not sure of official doctrine, but my own guess is that it is not for them at this time. Who knows, maybe they will have it in the future, but only Heavenly Father knows that.

[Vanhin]

Funny how we can't even talk about our faith in our own forums.

I understand most of it. Only you still didn't answer....

Why can't WOMEN have the priesthood?

I know I didn't. I figured I had rambled on enough for one message. :)

The answer to that is that God has deemed it so. There is no amount of lobbying, or protesting that can change that, no matter how politically incorrect it may seem to you or others in our current environment. The only thing that can change that is if God reveals it to his servant who has the right to receive such revelations. Currently it is President Thomas S. Monson.

The only way that can suffice as an answer to you, is if you actually believe that it is the will of God. I know it wouldn't suffice for me if I didn't believe.

So, the questions I would ask you.

1) Do you believe in God?

2) Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

3) Do you believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God?

4) Do you believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church of Jesus Christ on the earth?

5) Do you believe that Thomas S. Monson is the Lord's Prophet currently?

Warm Regards,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

We can talk about our faith, but cannot discuss what happens in the Temple, as we have promised not to.

As to why women cannot hold the Priesthood, I'm not sure of official doctrine, but my own guess is that it is not for them at this time. Who knows, maybe they will have it in the future, but only Heavenly Father knows that.

Since this is an eternal principle, not likely going to change unless there is a GOD that was not man.

You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation.-Joseph Smith, Jr., Times and Seasons August 15, 1844, Delivered April, 1844

Edited June 19, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Vanhin]

Funny how we can't even talk about our faith in our own forums.

Hey NormalMormon,

I did want to respond to this as well. When you first posted your questions, it was obvious that you even questioned whether it was ok to talk about the temple stuff. I'm sure you understand that it is sacred to you and me both. We covenant not to discuss those things outside of the temple.

Somethings are ok, but we don't want to toy around with those limits, so it's better to play it safe.

As you can see for yourself, the remainder of your post was ok. So, I'm not sure why you would characterize this as "not being able to talk about our faith". Obviously we are talking about it now. :)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[MaidservantX]

You may enjoy some of our previous discussions on LDS.net on the subject of women and the priesthood. Obviously, the views expressed are those of the poster not necessarily the Church or this website.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/10917-women-priesthood.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/7021-will-men-church-upset-if-women-held-priesthood.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/7009-what-god-thinks-about-women-priesthood.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/6970-did-women-ever-hold-priesthood.html

[MaidservantX]

This is also a point that I heard brought up before and that I think should be realized more.

A man must receive the priesthood by ordination. It is a necessary ordinance for him to be saved.

A woman is free from this requirement in order to be saved. To me that's a nice thing. A woman is able to have authority in the Church without priesthood ordinations.

Further, men have requirements of duties that relate to the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood such as serving missions and watching over the flock. This is required at their hands before their God. They are required to see that ordinances are available for all God's children. The Church is a tool for this telestial world for the purpose of gathering Israel.

We should all serve in the Church, of course. But women do not have the same imperative Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood requirements in order to be obedient that men do. Women do not have a duty to go on a mission, although they may. Woman will not be lacking if they do not baptize. God's daughters don't have the gathering of Israel on their shoulders. Etc. The Sons do. As daughters, we may participate in many things, but we don't have the blood of the generation on our hands if we don't, like men of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood do unless they discharge their priesthood duties. Why? Well, this leaves women free to rear their children in freedom, peace and without worry of so many things outside of the home. I have come to value that gift. I do many things outside the home, of course. I am a creative and professional woman. But I am free from certain duties in the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood and the Church, which freedom I am grateful for.

I actually have a priesthood delegation as the ward choir director. I direct the choir the way I think the Savior would if He were there. I represent the Savior in that capacity and I have the authority and power to do it, and I was set apart by my priesthood leaders.

Also -- if women had the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods we would take over everything, and we can't have that, now can we?

Continue to study the scriptures and attend the temple and the relationship of priesthood to women will come clear to you.

This is my opinion, I won't put it forth as Church teaching.

Edited June 19, 2008 by MaidservantX
a very important comma

[Vanhin]

You are right on the money, in my opinon MaidservantX. I would give you two thanks if I could for your post. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[NormalMormon]

I know we aren’t supposed to talk about the things that happen in the temple, because it is sacred. However, if you claim that the things I’ve heard AREN’T true, then why not discuss it? We aren’t supposed to talk about what all the stuff MEANS….

I think it’s wrong that we don’t prepare young women to go to the temple. They are smacked in the face with all this stuff they don’t know, and are scared to know. It’s a very strange experience for many of them. So naturally, preparing them for it (above and beyond temple prep classes) should be necessary. If not for just the sake of keeping them in the church.

HemiDakota – That the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Yes, we can have children. That’s a physical difference, just like women can’t have male genitalia. Women can’t impregnate other women. Those are physical differences. God didn’t say, “Oh, well since women can have kids, I will give men the priesthood.” It’s not like that.

“A woman is free from this requirement in order to be saved. To me that's a nice thing. A woman is able to have authority in the Church without priesthood ordinations.”

This makes no sense at all. Why would women need a man to give priesthood blessings on the family? Why can’t she do it herself? If her husband dies, and she doesn’t want to spend the rest of her life with some other strange man, then she should have the priesthood for this purpose.

It’s also not right that a woman has to wait until she is 21 in order to go on a mission, and a man gets to go when he is 18.

[MaidservantX]

I know we aren’t supposed to talk about the things that happen in the temple, because it is sacred. However, if you claim that the things I’ve heard AREN’T true, then why not discuss it? We aren’t supposed to talk about what all the stuff MEANS….

I think it’s wrong that we don’t prepare young women to go to the temple. They are smacked in the face with all this stuff they don’t know, and are scared to know. It’s a very strange experience for many of them. So naturally, preparing them for it (above and beyond temple prep classes) should be necessary. If not for just the sake of keeping them in the church.

HemiDakota – That the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Yes, we can have children. That’s a physical difference, just like women can’t have male genitalia. Women can’t impregnate other women. Those are physical differences. God didn’t say, “Oh, well since women can have kids, I will give men the priesthood.” It’s not like that.

“A woman is free from this requirement in order to be saved. To me that's a nice thing. A woman is able to have authority in the Church without priesthood ordinations.”

This makes no sense at all. Why would women need a man to give priesthood blessings on the family? Why can’t she do it herself? If her husband dies, and she doesn’t want to spend the rest of her life with some other strange man, then she should have the priesthood for this purpose.

It’s also not right that a woman has to wait until she is 21 in order to go on a mission, and a man gets to go when he is 18.

These are great thoughts. These are the kinds of questions we all have. I think one question you might want to find the answer for -- and I say this from experience -- is if your Father in heaven does all things for your benefit or for some other reason? (I like 1 Nephi 11:17.) And as you say, preparing for the temple is very important. I think you will make a great mother and young women's leader as you realize what you can do to teach your children and young women in this area.

There are times and places to discuss what is learned in the temple. My mother and I discuss many things together. However, an internet forum board is just not sacred enough to talk about most temple things.

Have you tried searching for articles on lds.org? I love that resource.

Happy seeking! We're glad you're here. :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

I believe the age difference for a woman going on a mission is for her own sake. It's a lot easier for a 19 year old lad to face difficult opposition than it is for a 19 year old girl. Those 2 years give her a bit more experience and maybe by 21 she is a bit tougher.

As for having the priesthood. As a woman I'm glad I don't have that responsibility on top of all my other responsibilities.

What Hemi said wasn't daft at all. Perhaps you didn't understand him. No matter how much a man wants to be involved in the lives of his children even right from being there at the birth he cannot, no matter how much he may want to, carry that growing developing child within his own body for 9 months and go through the physical pain of bringing that child into the world. Only a woman can do that. A man may be able to mix baby formula and feed the little one from a bottle but only the mother can produce her own natural milk and suckle the child.

[Vanhin]

I know we aren’t supposed to talk about the things that happen in the temple, because it is sacred. However, if you claim that the things I’ve heard AREN’T true, then why not discuss it? We aren’t supposed to talk about what all the stuff MEANS….

Except for the sacred parts about the temple, that we won't discuss, what did I miss? I even explained where you can go and get the temple answers from. I'm trying to be as helpful as I can here. Throw me a bone. :)

There is absolutely nothing in the temple about men choosing which women are exalted with them, and calling forth their goddesses. Where did you get that stuff?

I think it’s wrong that we don’t prepare young women to go to the temple. They are smacked in the face with all this stuff they don’t know, and are scared to know. It’s a very strange experience for many of them. So naturally, preparing them for it (above and beyond temple prep classes) should be necessary. If not for just the sake of keeping them in the church.

There's no conspiracy to widthold preparation to women for going to the temple. None of the women in my life share your experience. Besides why would the experience be any different for women than men? There are specifics about temple worship that cannot be discussed outside of the temple, but the lessons learned there about the plan of salvation, priesthood, the atonement, and so forth are found in our scriptures. The best preparation is one's own testimony that is gained through the study of scriptures, prayer, and obedience to God's commandments.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[NormalMormon]

I believe the age difference for a woman going on a mission is for her own sake. It's a lot easier for a 19 year old lad to face difficult opposition than it is for a 19 year old girl. Those 2 years give her a bit more experience and maybe by 21 she is a bit tougher.

As for having the priesthood. As a woman I'm glad I don't have that responsibility on top of all my other responsibilities.

What Hemi said wasn't daft at all. Perhaps you didn't understand him. No matter how much a man wants to be involved in the lives of his children even right from being there at the birth he cannot, no matter how much he may want to, carry that growing developing child within his own body for 9 months and go through the physical pain of bringing that child into the world. Only a woman can do that. A man may be able to mix baby formula and feed the little one from a bottle but only the mother can produce her own natural milk and suckle the child.

Actually, women are inherently more mature than men when it comes to age. A 21 year old female biologically has developed more than a male has. (We all learned this in 6th grade sex ed remember?) So the only logical reason why anyone would make this rule is so that women who graduate high school are more inclined to either a) go to college or b) get married to a return missionary (or both), instead of feeling the need to go on a mission.

And just because women can do this, doesn't mean that they should have any less privledges than men. What God physically gave us is unchangeable and from the start, we should have considered everything equal, including child birth etc... It is MAN who has changed everything around so it's "unfair" to men for not being able to breastfeed or whatever. Just because they physically CAN'T do what we do, doesn't mean we need to make up for it by allowing men to do all this stuff, and women not to.

[NormalMormon]

Except for the sacred parts about the temple, that we won't discuss, what did I miss? I even explained where you can go and get the temple answers from. I'm trying to be as helpful as I can here. Throw me a bone. :)

There is absolutely nothing in the temple about men choosing which women are exalted with them, and calling forth their goddesses. Where did you get that stuff?

There's no conspiracy to widthold preparation to women for going to the temple. None of the women in my life share your experience. Besides why would the experience be any different for women than men? There are specifics about temple worship that cannot be discussed outside of the temple, but the lessons learned there about the plan of salvation, priesthood, the atonement, and so forth are found in our scriptures. The best preparation is one's own testimony that is gained through the study of scriptures, prayer, and obedience to God's commandments.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Well, because "ideally" as I just mentioned, women will be married to their husbands, who have already gone on a mission. So their husbands have already gone through and understand everything already....sounds pretty sweet to a guy!

But then the woman goes through, and she is in NO WAY prepared. (After all, her and her future husband have only been "dating" for a few weeks before this, and it is unlikely that he cared about preparing her for what she would see in the temple.)

[WillowTheWhisp]

Actually, women are inherently more mature than men when it comes to age. A 21 year old female biologically has developed more than a male has. (We all learned this in 6th grade sex ed remember?) So the only logical reason why anyone would make this rule is so that women who graduate high school are more inclined to either a) go to college or b) get married to a return missionary (or both), instead of feeling the need to go on a mission.

I wasn't suggesting that a 19 year old girl is less mature than a 19 year old boy but in my experience she is a lot less physically tough. A couple more years of life experience makes up for that. As a 19 year old I wouldn't have wanted to go on a mission. I wouldn't have felt old enough.

And just because women can do this, doesn't mean that they should have any less privledges than men. What God physically gave us is unchangeable and from the start, we should have considered everything equal, including child birth etc... It is MAN who has changed everything around so it's "unfair" to men for not being able to breastfeed or whatever. Just because they physically CAN'T do what we do, doesn't mean we need to make up for it by allowing men to do all this stuff, and women not to.

Privilege? Are you seeing the priesthood as a privilege? I would have called it a responsibility and a heavy one at that. It isn't one I'm going to clamour after and cry "no fair, I want one!"

God in his wisdom created us in his image. That means women give birth and men don't. There is no 'unfair' about it. It's just different responsibilities because men and women are different. I don't think it's unfair that I can't have the priesthood and I don't think it's unfair that my husband can't have babies.

Do you think it's unfair that you can't see through your nostrils or ear through your eyelids? We have noses for nasal purposes and eyes for visual purposes and ears for auditory purposes. Men for man stuff and women for woman stuff. I'm far too busy being a woman to want to be a man as well.

Edited June 19, 2008 by WillowTheWhisp
typo

[MaidservantX]

It sounds like you've had a tough time. There are those who would identify with you and maybe they will offer encouragement.

I have to say, for myself, however, that I looked forward to entering the temple and I wanted it to be a surprise. I found it to be awesome in a good way. I found it based on the scriptures; in fact, I have been known to think in times past, "I could have gotten all this from the scriptures. This isn't so great." But, of course, as I have continued to go back to the temple I have found so much to be a blessing to me in my life. I hope the same for you or anyone.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Well, because "ideally" as I just mentioned, women will be married to their husbands, who have already gone on a mission. So their husbands have already gone through and understand everything already....sounds pretty sweet to a guy!

But then the woman goes through, and she is in NO WAY prepared. (After all, her and her future husband have only been "dating" for a few weeks before this, and it is unlikely that he cared about preparing her for what she would see in the temple.)

Why should he need to prepare her? Who prepared him? Temple preparation classes? She too can attend temple preparation classes. Our Young Women have been having a lot of lessons about the temple lately so they are not exactly ignorant, and they attend on a monthly basis to do baptisms so it's not a weird and foreign place to them.

Only dating for a few weeks? Do people you know really rush into marriage so quickly? They don't here.

There is a very good reason why the husband is the one to take his new wife through the temple, but it isn't one I believe we should discuss here.

[SmilingRedhead]

Do you think it's unfair that you can't see through your nostrils or ear through your eyelids? We have noses for nasal purposes and eyes for visual purposes and ears for auditory purposes. Men for man stuff and women for woman stuff. I'm far too busy being a woman to want to be a man as well.

heehee that really made me chuckle... I wonder what it would be like to see through ones nostrils...

[Vanhin]

Well, because "ideally" as I just mentioned, women will be married to their husbands, who have already gone on a mission. So their husbands have already gone through and understand everything already....sounds pretty sweet to a guy!

Hey NormalMormon,

Well, no not exactly, that is not the ideal of temple worship. Except when we are sealed, temple worship is an individual thing that everyone goes through for the first time initially. So, even in your "ideal" example, the (future) husband would have been through it for the first time at some point earlier, where the possibility of not being as prepared is exactly the same as for the sister. You see what I'm saying?

By it being "sweet to a guy" in your example, do you mean he has some advantage over the girl because of his previous experience?

If that is what you meant, then rest assured it's not always like that. I know people personally where the husband was a convert and the wife had already been previously.

But then the woman goes through, and she is in NO WAY prepared. (After all, her and her future husband have only been "dating" for a few weeks before this, and it is unlikely that he cared about preparing her for what she would see in the temple.)

Well, I can totally understand this situation you have outlined. Preparation for the temple is really important, and it is imperative that priesthood and auxiliary leaders, home teachers, visiting teachers, missionaries, parents, friends, and siblings all help prepare an individual (male or female) to make such sacred covenants with the Lord. I would say that the biggest responsibility still lies with the individual and their own preparation. But I see what you are saying.

I have a couple of brothers who both went through at the same time as their brides and brides to be, before being sealed to their spouses. Which according to the ideal happens for the first and only time for both of them, as far as living ordinances go. :)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

I went through the temple for the first time on the same day as my then fiance. We married nearly 3 months later. Even though he was not yet my husband he was the one who took me through the veil. It was equally new to both of us.

[Truegrits]

heehee that really made me chuckle... I wonder what it would be like to see through ones nostrils...

I think we would be "looking" downward a lot more! LOL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree, I do not view it as "fair" or "unfair"...just different responsibilities

with different rewards.

[Vanhin]

Alright. Well, I'm going to leave this in the capable hands of you fine sisters. Talk to you all later.

Vanhin