BoM evidence?

[DigitalShadow]

I don't have faith that the miracles in The Bible were performed. I just have reason to believe that the historical context behind those stories was real, The Bible deals with real events that can be independently verified, with a religious spin that requires faith.

With the Book of Mormon I don't see that the historical context is largely supported by real findings. I also don't see the argument of an isolated society. There were many tribes depicted in the Book of Mormon and the earlier church position stated that the Book of Mormon tribes were the principal ancestry of the Pre-Columbian Native American population. That view was reversed when genetic testing and profiling became a possibility and it was determined that the predominant genetic links were much closer to Siberian and Mongoloid tribes.

If it were simply an unproven postulate but a plausible scientific explanation then a lot of evidence wouldn't be needed but it seems to me the reigning scientific knowledge of today in the field doesn't simply not support the Book of Mormon but much of it flies in it's face. That doesn't mean it's not true but it means the need for plausible evidence, in my mind, is greater for the Book of Mormon then The Bible.

Then I suppose we are in the same position :)

[rameumptom]

The concept of a Limited Geographical Theory (LGT) has been around long before DNA showed anything. John Sorenson was writing about it decades ago.

The reality is, early members assumed the BoM was about all native Americans. But none of them were studied in textual criticism, so would not have noticed key elements that contradicted their views.

For example, 12 days to travel from Lamanite lands to the land of Zarahemla, with no trails, strongly shows that the Nephite territory was only about 250 miles north to south.

Nephi could not have built a temple like Solomon's temple in the first 20 years of being in the New World, unless they had already absorbed other groups. Numerically, they were just too few to build it.

Finding the Mulekites showed one example of them absorbing a group, and then calling them Nephites. This cultural adoption of other races was very common in both the Middle East and in Mesoamerica. And considering the Lamanites were still more numerous than the Nephites AFTER the Mulekites joined them is strongly suggestive of the concept that Lamanites were also absorbing other groups.

I could give dozens of other examples from the text, but will leave it at that.

There are interesting articles at the FAIR website that show an underlying understanding of Mayan political and cultural lifestyle, such as this one from Brant Gardner. It becomes an issue of, how could Joseph know, if it wasn't a historical book?

[rameumptom]

I would recommend an article I wrote years ago, about an Incan legend, where the sun went missing for days. After several days, it returned. At noon, a bearded white God, named Viracocha, came to the people and taught them for several days, before leaving and promising to return again someday.

Here is a story that ties in with the Book of Mormon with NO Biblical tie-ins. How could Joseph Smith have known to include such a story in 3 Nephi?

[HiJolly]

I would recommend an article I wrote years ago, about an Incan legend, where the sun went missing for days. After several days, it returned. At noon, a bearded white God, named Viracocha, came to the people and taught them for several days, before leaving and promising to return again someday.

Here is a story that ties in with the Book of Mormon with NO Biblical tie-ins. How could Joseph Smith have known to include such a story in 3 Nephi?

Very nice, Ram. thx.

HiJolly

[azazel420]

While it's a nice story and there are certainly parallels to the Christian story, it's significantly different enough and dates don't exactly line up with him as a Jesus figure.

History: (Incan Myth) - Viracocha was the son of the ancient gods Bochica and Chia who abdicated their roles in order for him to become ruler of the Incan gods and to allow the Incans to prosper. From 1100 BC to at least 1500 AD, he ruled a pantheon of gods who had worshippers over half of South America. The Incan gods, however, lost much of their power when the Spanish Conquistadors invaded the land bringing Christianity with them and black slaves with their African Gods. Some of the Incans may have fled as far north as Costa Verde in Central America where they spread worship of Viracocha to the Kamekeri Indians.

Source: Viracocha (Incan God)

He's about 1100 years to early to be Jesus.

All in all there are a handful of similarities (maybe half a dozen) and at least as many differences. Looking at deities from nearly any pantheon you are bound to find more then a few similarities between some.

[hethathathears]

I was hit be some Anti in the past. They said that there was nothing as far as legened or proof about the Book of Mormon. If my teenager ever gets back from camp I can have him down load some pictures as well as a great body of evidence that has come forth concerning the Book of Mormon.

Fernando De Alva Ixtlilxochitl

(Eesht-leal-sho-cheat-el)

I have included Ixtlilxochitl in this Blog as he is a very powerful witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. He was born in 1578 A.D and died around 1650 A.D. He was born of royal descent. His father was the last king of Texcoco, and the next to the last Emperor of Mexico, Cuitlahuac. His mother was of Spanish descent.

When the Spaniards came over in the 16th century, they imposed Christianity upon the native people. This was done at gun point. The natives went through the motions of conversions, however, they would always go back to their writings, the Codexs, to practice the old religion. When the Spaniards discovered what they were doing, they took all of their Codexs, and burned them all, forcing them to move forward with Christianity. Saddened by the loss of his peoples history, Ixtlilxochitl, went amongst his people and copied down all of their legends. His work became so famous that it was taken from him and taken back to Spain where it was put into the library in Madrid Spain. It stayed there until it was put into a book called the Antiquities of Mexico, in 1848. (18 years after the Book of Mormon was published) It was copied from Spanish to English in the year 1902. It is threw Ixtililxochitl’s writing that that we can compare the history of the first settlers on this continent. Now there is a corruption of names, however, the stories still hold true. Remember, his writings were written in the 1600’s (230 years before the Book of Mormon was translated) however, nobody could read it until 1848 in Spanish, or 1902 in English, both of which came forth after the Book of Mormon was published.

The writings of Ixtlilxochitl tell about their belief about-

- the belief in the first parents and the creation of the world

- about how the earth was destroyed by a flood and a great how a ark saved them

- it talks about how a great tower was built and how the language was confounded

- it talks about how these people crossed many waters to come to this land

- it tells the story of how the sun stood still for one day

- it tells how the first settlers were giants

- it tells of great earthquakes and destruction on the land around the death of

Jesus Christ. Many cities were destroyed.

- it tells how after many years of peace, men stood up to overthrow the legitimate

Successor of the land.

- it tells of how there were righteous men and men of blood and wickedness.

This is just a short list of the writings of Ixtlilxochitl. The next several pages deal with the writings of Ixtlilxochitl and the corresponding writing found in the Book of Mormon. This work came out of a Book Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon, written by Joseph L. Allen Ph.D. which come with complete footnotes.

I have had many people who had prayed about the church and received an answer, but then when the anti’s came in, they lost their testimony. Istlilxochitl’s writing have proven to counter the anti Mormons lies. It is a truly impressive work.

Fernando de Ixtlilxochitl and the Book of Mormon

1- A history of the events in New Spain including many things regarding the knowledge and accomplish

-ments of the Tultecas from the creation of the World to its destruction, , and up to the arrival of the

Third inhabitants called Chichimecas…

Book of Mormon- 1st inhabitance Jaridites, (Either 6) 2nd inhabitance Mule kites (Omni 1:15)

3rd inhabitance the Children of Lehi, the Nephites and Lamanites (1 Nephi 18:23)

2- The creation of the world and things pertaining thereto, including the origin of man. The

Omniscience of God and what He has revealed to the Toltecas.

Book of Mormon- And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth, and they have brought forth children… 2 Nephi 19-20

3- The Tultecas had a knowledge of the creation of the world by Tloque Nahuaque, including the

plants, mountains, animals, etc. They also knew about how God created a man and a woman

from whence all mankind descended and multiplied.

Book of Mormon- And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave

an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first

parents. 1 Nephi 5:11

4- The records indicate that a flood came 1,716 years after the creation of the world. At this time

of great lightning and storms from the heavens, man was destroyed, and everything on earth

was covered by water including the hightest mountain.

5- To this they recorded other events, such as how after the flood, a few people who had escaped the

destruction inside a Toptlipetlacalli, which interpreted means an enclosed ark.

Book of Mormon- … yet it would not be by flood as were the people in the days of Noah…

Alma 10:22

For he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man, and that after the water had

receded from off the face of this land it became choice lands… Ether 13:2

6- After the earth began again to be populated, they built a Zacualli very high and strong, which

means the very high tower, to protect themselves against the 2nd destruction of the world.

Book of Mormon- I give not the full account, …from the tower down until they were destroyed.

Ether 1:5

7- As time elapsed, their language became confounded, such that they did not understand one

another, and they were scattered to all parts of the world.

Book of Mormon- And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded

the language of the people. Omni 1:22

8- The Tultecas, consisting of seven men and their wives, were able to understand one another, and

they came to this land, having first crossed many lands and waters, living in caves and passing

through great tribulations.

Book of Mormon- And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the

Lord had compassion upon Jared, therefore he did not confound the language of Jared. Ether 1:35

And they did land upon the shore of the promised land. And when they had set their feet upon the

shores of the promised land, and when they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land, and

did humble themselves before the Lord, and did shed tears of joy before the Lord. Ether 6:12

13- In the year 8 tochtli, which was 4,779 years since the creation of the world, it is recorded in their

history that the sun stood still one natural day without moving.

Book of Mormon- And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled,

according as they had been spoken, for behold at the going down of the sun there was no darkness

and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.

Samuel the Lamanite 3 Nephi 1:15

14- It had been 158 years since the great hurricane when there occurred another destruction in this

Land. The people who lived in this corner of the land were giants.

Book of Mormon- And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days… and they

discovered a land which was covered with bones of men… and of ruins of buildings of every kind

having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the

hosts of Israel…which were large… Mosiah 8:8-10

16- It had been 270 years since the giants had been destroyed when the sun and the moon eclipsed and

the earth quaked and rocks were broken into pieces and many other signs that had been given came

pass, which happened at the same time that Christ, our Lord, was crucified. And they say that this

destruction occurred in the first few days of the year.

Book of Mormon- In the 34th year, in the first month, on the forth day, there arose a great storm

Such an one as never had been known in all the land. And there was a great and terrible tempest,

and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to

divide asunder. And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in

all the land. And the city of Zarahemia did take fire. And the city of Moroni did sink into the

depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned, And the earth was carried up on the

city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain. And there was a

great and terrible destruction in the land southward. But behold, there was a more great and

terrible destruction in the land northward, for behold, the whole face of the land was changed,

because of the tempest and the whirlwind, and the thundering and the lightnings, and the exceeding

great quaking of the whole earth. 3 Nephi 8:5-12

It speaks of many other signs that were given. Samuel the Lamanite gave many signs unto the people

concerning the birth and death of Jesus Christ.

17- These and many other things from the creation of the world up to our time were understood by the

Tultecas for they made an abridgement, primarily of their origins, I mean all of the things that are

found in their paintings and histories are just an abridgement compared to the records that the first

archbishop of Mexico ordered to be burned.

Book of Mormon- …for after I had made an abridgement from the plates of Nephi, down to the

reign of this king Benjamin… Words of Mormon 1:3

18- It had been 305 years since the time of the eclipsing of the sun and the moon, when the Tulteca

royal lineage, following many years of the kingdom, desiring to overthrow the legitimate successor.

Book of Mormon- And it came to pass that after three hundred and five years had passed away

Ammaron being constrained by the Holy Ghost, did hide up the records which were sacred…

4 Nephi 1:48, …there arose a people who were called the Nephites, and they were the true believers

of Christ… and they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites…followed by great wars.

This was after hundreds of years of peace.

… believing in the tradition of their fathers of their fathers, which is this, believing that they were

driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquites of their fathers, and that they were

wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea.

Mosiah 10:12

19- They were exiled, and there began to be wars, and they cast them out of the City of Tlachicalzincan,

and they were cast out with their families and allies, their men as well as their women, and a great

exciled.

In Mormon 6 it talks about the Nephites being exiled from the land and their city together with their

wives and children. They all met for the last and final battle at Cumorah. It was here that Nephites

became instinct. Mormon 6

21) And all who are now called Tultecas, Aculhuas, and Mexicanas, as we as the other people in this land

boast and affirm that they are descendants of the Chichimecas. The reason, according to their history,

is that their first King, whose name was Chichimecatl, was the one who brought them to this new land

where they settled.

Book of Mormon- All the Book of Mormon people came from Lehi. Even though we had Nephites

And Lamanites, and Amalikites, and Amlicites as well as other, the all stemmed from Lehi.

22) In each place where the Chichimecatl settled, whether it be a large city or a small village, it was their

custom to name it according to the first king or leader who possessed the land. This same custom

prevailed amoung the Tultecas.

Book of Mormon- Now it was the custom of the people of Nephi to call their lands, and their cities,

and their villages, yea, even all their small villages after the name of him who first possessed them, and

thus it was with the land of Ammonihah. Alma 8:7

23) Notwithstanding that some were called Tultecas, others Aculhuas, Tepanecas and Otomites, they all

were proud to be of the lineage of the Chichimecas, because they all descended from them. However, it

is true that there were divisions amoung the chichimecas themselves. And some were more civilized

then others, such as the Tultecas. And others were more barbaric, such as the Otomites, Those who are

pure Chichimecas, whose kings were direct descendants of the first king, were bloodthirsty men, warriors, and lovers of power, holding other nations in bondage.

Book of Mormon- they were a wild and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the

tradition of their fathers of their fathers, which is this, believing that they were driven out of the land of

Jerusalem because of the iniquites of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea. Mosiah 10:12

24) Although one nation was inclined to righteousness and another nation was full of mischief and idleness

being exceedingly haughty and proud and being warmongers, or although one nation was virtuous and

other full of iniquity, both as recorded in their history came from the same lineage, the Chichimecas.

Book of Mormon- Two separate peoples came from Lehi, the Nephites who were righteous and

virtuous, and the Lamanites who were idle (2 Nephi 5:24), and full of mischief, wormongers, and

bloodthirsty.

25) In this land called New Spain, there were giants as demonstrated by their bones that have been

discovered in many areas. The ancient Tulteca record keepers called them Quinametzin. They

became acquainted with them and had many wars and contentions with them, and in particular in all

the land that is now called Mexico. They were destroyed and their civilization came to an end as a

result of great calamities and punishments from heaven for some grave sins that they had committed.

Book of Mormon- The Nephites were the record keepers who bore witness that the Jaridites nation

came to an end because they choose wickedness over righteousness.

Primera edicion: Kingsborough. Antiquities of Mexico. vol IX London 1848

Edited July 3, 2008 by hethathathears

[hordak]

I don't have faith that the miracles in The Bible were performed. I just have reason to believe that the historical context behind those stories was real, The Bible deals with real events that can be independently verified, with a religious spin that requires faith.

With the Book of Mormon I don't see that the historical context is largely supported by real findings. I also don't see the argument of an isolated society. There were many tribes depicted in the Book of Mormon and the earlier church position stated that the Book of Mormon tribes were the principal ancestry of the Pre-Columbian Native American population. That view was reversed when genetic testing and profiling became a possibility and it was determined that the predominant genetic links were much closer to Siberian and Mongoloid tribes.

If it were simply an unproven postulate but a plausible scientific explanation then a lot of evidence wouldn't be needed but it seems to me the reigning scientific knowledge of today in the field doesn't simply not support the Book of Mormon but much of it flies in it's face. That doesn't mean it's not true but it means the need for plausible evidence, in my mind, is greater for the Book of Mormon then The Bible.

Finding Pool of Siloam in the 8,522 sq miles of Israel is like shooting fish in a barrel compared to trying to find a city of the nephites in the 16,400,000 sq miles of the Americas.

Besides as many people have said, physical evidence doesn't seem to have a lasting effect as the Exodus (which i haven't seen any historical evidence for) shows us .

[azazel420]

13- In the year 8 tochtli, which was 4,779 years since the creation of the world, it is recorded in their

history that the sun stood still one natural day without moving.

Book of Mormon- And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled,

according as they had been spoken, for behold at the going down of the sun there was no darkness

and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.

Samuel the Lamanite 3 Nephi 1:15

According to the biblical calendar I've come to recognize, the writer dates this event to about 700 AD. Far as I know my Book of Mormon dates at this time the Nephites were dead several hundred years over.

As far as I understood your time-line he places the death of Jesus after this, someone correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be an untrustworthy source.

[rameumptom]

Azazel,

Many traditions were expanded over long periods of time. Especially in Mesoamerica, traditions passed down from one group of people to the next (Olmec passed traditions to the Maya, who passed them to the Aztec).

These are evidences, not proofs. While Viracocha precedes Jesus by a millennium, many of the stories do not. All of it ends up being approximations, since we have primarily oral traditions that have been passed down, as the Conquistadores destroyed most of the Native American records.

As it is, the Nephites had prophecies of Christ's birth, and that there would be darkness, etc., at his death. Perhaps some of these prophecies became part of the earlier, but changed oral tradition?

While these are not proofs, they do open the way for us to see that the Book of Mormon's stories were not necessarily created in the isolation of Joseph Smith's mind (or Spaulding, either). Oral traditions that were passed down do require consideration in light of the BoM, because Joseph did not have access to these stories prior to 1830.

It is like ignoring the correct Egyptian names in the BoM as coincidence, or pretend Joseph knew some Egyptian names, even though Champollion didn't translate Egyptian until 1829, the same year the BoM was completed!

[rameumptom]

According to the biblical calendar I've come to recognize, the writer dates this event to about 700 AD. Far as I know my Book of Mormon dates at this time the Nephites were dead several hundred years over.

As far as I understood your time-line he places the death of Jesus after this, someone correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be an untrustworthy source.

Once again, we are discussing oral traditions that are passed down. Dates may not be accurate after several centuries, especially if these traditions were passed to the Aztec from the Maya (which many were). Aztecs adopted many of the Maya gods and the traditions that had to do with them.

[azazel420]

Once again, we are discussing oral traditions that are passed down. Dates may not be accurate after several centuries, especially if these traditions were passed to the Aztec from the Maya (which many were). Aztecs adopted many of the Maya gods and the traditions that had to do with them.

Perhaps but I have to say of this particular source I'm decidedly dubious. Oral traditions documented by a lone historian with a distinct Christian influence during a time period where Spanish influence would of played a major role in his works. From Wikipedia:

"A Mestizo born between 1568 and 1580, Alva Cortés Ixtlilxóchitl was a direct descendant of Ixtlilxóchitl I and Ixtlilxóchitl II, tlatoque (rulers) of Texcoco. He was also the great-great-grandson of Cuitláhuac, the next-to-last Aztec ruler of Tenochtitlan and victor of la Noche Triste. He was a distinguished student at the Imperial College of Santa Cruz de Tlatelolco, where he was educated in both Nahuatl and Spanish. He lived in San Juan Teotihuacán from 1600 to 1604. In 1612 he was governor of Texcoco, and in 1613 governor of Tlalmanalco.

In spite of his illustrious birth, good education and obvious ability, he lived most of his life in dire poverty. Most of his works were written to relieve his wants."

"His works contain very important data for the history of Mexico, but except for Historia chichimeca, they are written without order or method, the chronology is very faulty, and there is much repetition."

Encarta states:

"Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl (1568?-1648), Mexican historian, and lineal descendant of the Native South American chief Ixtlilxochitl II of Texcoco. He was commissioned by the Spanish viceroy of Mexico to write histories of the Native American peoples of Mexico."

Corroborating sources from his contemporaries or predecessors would add some weight to his accounts, It's still far from scientific evidence but would be more convincing.

The Spanish influence is a very important point, this was a period in time where the Spanish Inquisition was still very much alive.

To be clear, I'm not trying to be overly critical, I'm not saying the guy was a liar. It's important to note the historical context out of which such sources arise. There's a difference in my mind between an account of oral tradition that's displayed in an unbiased manner and then has Christian stories layered on top and a source which begins with a Christian spin from the start. It's fairly clear that Ixtlilxochitl displayed his stories from a Christian perspective, meaning it's very easy to conclude that he may of made key adaptations within the stories to conform to his preconceived notions. One key fact of human nature is that when you view something through a cultural microscope that's colored by one belief everything tends to conform to that belief a little easier.

Edited July 3, 2008 by azazel420

[Anthesian]

I just wanted to make sure this nonsense from Anthesian did not go un-countered.Ok, so we haven't been able to prove the BoM (and hence the existence of God) via archaeology. Fine. But this thread isn't asking for proof, it's asking for evidence. And yes, there is quite a bit. None of it is conclusive, much of it is not very persuasive, but yes, there is evidence.

Nonsense? And then comes the comical awkward silence. Moving on...Semantics? Really? Is that the best you could do?

I'm thinking your definition of "substantial" is a bit different than most people's. I've occasionally asked critics of my church what they would do if tomorrow non-LDS archaologists discovered the sword of Laban, horse and elephant bones, Zarehemla, Lehi's grave with DNA matching inhabitants of Jerusalem in 600b.c., etc. Many of them aren't even dented - the church is false! Nothing that they can ever see or experience will ever lead them to believe otherwise! I wonder how Anthesian would answer...

Not true. At best, the BoM is exactly what it says it is - a legitimate, true record of people who lived in the Americas, and a 2nd witness of the literal existence of Jesus Christ.

LM

Much Love,

Dwayne

[rameumptom]

The reality is, there will never be enough proof or evidence for those who wish to remain skeptics. God designed faith into the system, so the only final proof is a spiritual one, which can only be obtained one individual at a time, and in a specific manner.

However, if people were to stop taking one item, laughing at it, then discarding it; and instead were to take the pile of evidences, some stronger, some weaker, and consider them as a whole, perhaps there would be greater appreciation for it all.

Yes, we only have oral traditions (with few exceptions on written records) from Mesoamerica. It seems that one must use what is available for evidence, regardless of whether it is strong evidence or not. There is not much other choice, when hundreds of written records were destroyed a century before Ixtlilxóchitl wrote them down from memory.

But while some additions may have occurred, we can't totally disregard his ancient record. For all we know, the oral tradition may have been as strongly held and passed down as was among the Jews or other groups. Besides, his Christian themes do not explain how other early oral traditions supported many of Ixtlilxóchitl's statements. For example, the Inca also had stories of a first man and woman, of a great Flood, etc. It would be highly improbable that Ixtlilxóchitl's written stories contaminated the Incan traditions that were also written down.

People scoffed at Homer's books for centuries until Schliemann proved that Troy actually existed. Suddenly, it "proved" that at least Homer's geography was not faulty. It still does not answer the issue of whether Hera and Apollo played with the fate of men in the battle over Helen. In such a manner, the Bible does have accurate geography for about 25% of the cities that have been found, but it doesn't mean Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus walked on water.

OTOH, each piece of strong or weak evidence for the Book of Mormon IS evidence that the spiritual witnesses in it are true. When NHM/Nahom was found, it became evidence that the Book of Mormon may be true, and hence the spiritual record is true as well. This is why we need to consider all the evidence for and against the BoM as a whole, and not piecemeal. When one sees the hundreds of evidences for it, it can become quite impressive and convincing that there is something to this marvelous book.

[hethathathears]

You asked in your original thread - was there any other "records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support" the claim for the Book of Mormon. I thought the answer was Yes. But you say no.

Ok, so from what I'm hearing you say, Fernado Ix interviewed 2000+ natives and was told-

- about their believe of the creation of the world, of man and women...

- of the great flood that came and destroyed man save a few who were saved.

- the building of a tall tower which resulted in the confounding of the languages.

- that the people came across many lands and many waters.

- that the sun stood still for one day. (by the way, the Mayan year is shorter that ours)

- the first settlers were giants

- there was a great destruction at the time of Christ in the land, and that there were signs given before that date.

- he talked about an abridgement

- that the 2nd settlers (the royal linage) were going through war

- that they had the custom of naming the land after the one who found it

- speaks of a righteous and civilized people while others descendant of 1st king were Blood thirsty.

Of course he said a lot more and in more detail, but from what I'm hearing you say, Ixtlilxóchitl's work can't be trusted because 1- he was poor. 2- He was commissioned by the Spanish to write a history of the people. 3- and their were discrepancies in some of his work. The reason there were discrepancies in his work was he recorded all who he interviewed. Different tribes had different dates but the stories all matched, or were very close. And as a result, all of his work that was written 200 years before the Book of Mormon was written should be thrown out. Even though his work mirrors the Book of Mormon all through out. I would think that if you wanted to be really honest, one or two points might be suspect, but all 32 points, that would be a pretty dead on match.

Let's see, your original post again-

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

All this is very special, however, that doesn't dissolve the fact that because the Codex were burned he went out and copied legion in the 1600's and then his work was packed away in a museum in Spain until after the Book of Mormon was written. When he wrote his work he didn't need to prove the Book of Mormon. When Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon he didn't have Fernado's work.

You asked for outside proof. Yes, some dates might be off, however, the body of the work is there. Not bad for oral tradition of one thousand four hundred years.

It's a funny thing about acceptance of proof. I seem to have recalled the story of one Jesus Christ who was taken before a dude named Caiapahas the High Priest. Now even though Christ raised the dead, healed the sick, made the blind see, fed the multitude, even after he had done all that, Caiapahas still didn't believe and had Jesus Christ crucified. In fact, the Jews had a huge problem of killing the prophets even though they had amazing proof.

Now if you don't want to accept Ol Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl, no problem, but will you accept Mormoni's earth works.

Edited July 4, 2008 by hethathathears

[hethathathears]

Oh happy day! We have more. In Alma 49 Captain Moroni commissioned some of the bored Nephites to hedge up some of the weaker city in the Eastern Wilderness by the East Sea. Wow! I guess in 1967 Puleston and Callender 1967:40-48 wrote an article on a survey they did. Not to mention the Los Angeles Times article on August 14th, 1989. p. 3 that reads It's as if the Mayans were spending 75% of their budget on defense. But before I get to the article, let me state what it says in the Book of Mormon.

And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Mormoni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had CAST UP DIRT round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Laminites, for behold, they fought with stones and with arrows... (Alma 49:2)

But behold, how great was their disappointment; for behold, the Nephites had DUG UP A RIDGE OF EARTH round about them, which was so high that the Lamanites could not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect, neither could they come upon them save it was by their PLACE OF ENTRANCE... (Alma 49:4)

Now behold, the Lamanites could not get into their FORTS OF SECURITY by any other way save BY THE ENTRANCE, because of the HIGHNESS OF THE BANK which had been thrown up, and the DEPTH of the ditch which had been dug around about, save it were by the ENTRANCE. (Alma 49:18)

Now consider the archaeological journal in 1967;

For the weeks, months, and even years one spends carry out fairly routine work there is always the possibility of stumbling o to something important that is totally unexpected. The discovery of what appears to be a 9 1/2 km long defensive earthworks 4.5 km north of the Great Plaza of Tikal is an example of just such a chance... Frankly, a defensive barrier of this magnitude or for that matter of any magnitude was not one of the things we expected to find in the process of a project to explore and map the outlying areas at Tikal...

The Tikal earthworks were discovered in the process of sysstematic mapping of the remains of house platforms and other structures along the 1/2 km. wide, 12 km. long strip which extends north from Tikal's center. The TRENCH is the most prominent feature of the earthworks, but when it was first discovered it appeared to be nothing more than a natural arroya or ravine. As we followed it however, it soon became evident that it was not a natural formation. First, it had a CONTINUOUS RAISED EMBANKMENT along the south side, and second it passed up and down over hills, following a fairly straight line. At several points where we came to low ground it seemed to disappear, and by continuing on we were always able to pick it up again on the next piece of high ground... Otherwise, the earthworks were easy to follow. We soon found it easiest to walk along in the trench itself, though occasionally fallen trees of great size blocked our path, forcing us to crawl though a dense tangle of branche3s or make a detour. We followed the trench in this way for a total of three days. Compass bearings were taken every 40 - 50 meters and distances were paced off as accurately as possible revealing finally a total of 9 1/2 km. At both the east and west ends the earthworks disappeared into large swamps through which they may or may not have continued...

With the realization that this new feature was not natural, but something constructed with great effort by the Maya themselves, we were left with the question of why? What was the function of this great trench and embankment situated so far from the center of Tikal? At first we considered the possibility that it might have served as a canal in a water distribution system of some kind. However, this intriguing idea had to be rejected on the basis of two factors, both of which precluded the extremely porous nature of the limestone bedrock, and second, the way in which the trench goes up and down the sides of large hills without changing its depth.

On the other hand, its POTENTIAL AS A BARRIER TO HUMAN MOVEMENT was obvious... Though we did not know its depth before we began excavation, the FOUR METER WIDTH of the trench posed an obstacle few Maya could have crossed by jumping To have tried to do so would have been additionally difficult for two re3asons. 1st- for almost it's entire length outsiders would have had to run uphill to approach the trench, and second, they would have had to jump upwards, as well as across the trench to get onto the embankment which abutted the south lip... It should be remembered that this embankment must have been considerably steeper and higher a thousand years ago than it is today... THAT THE TRENCH WAS IMPASSABLE is suggested by the fact that at four or five widely separated points along it's length we found what appeared to be causeways across it. At each of these there was an equivalent gap in the embankment. If the earthworks were not a barrier to human passage these "GATES" would have little reason to exist...

Several days' work in the trench revealed that it had been cut into limestone bedrock to a depth of three meters and that in its original state the walls of the trench had been nearly vertical. clearly, anyone who might have fallen into it would have had some difficulty getting out...

THE LIMITED EXPLORATION OF MOST LOWLAND MAYA SITES MAKES IT IMPOSSILBE TO SAY THAT DEFENSIVE EARTHWORKS OF THIS NATURE ARE UNIQUE TO TIKAL OR EVEN RARE. The trench we have described above is crossed at one of its more impressive points by the well-traveled trail between Uzxactun and Tikal. Many well known archaeologists have crossed it without recognizing it for what it was, probably because with some discomfort as their mules slid down or scrambled up the steep south edge, who is to say that similar earthworks do not exist elsewhere? (Puleston and Callender 16967:40-48)

That is the end of the article, however, when I look on my MesoAmerican map, I see that Tikal is in the small country of Belize which is next to the EAST SEA. I guess that would be in the east wilderness. Other defensive earthworks sites have since been located at Becan, coba, and El Mirador. Yes and you guess it, they are all by the east coast or as the Book of Mormon puts it, the East Sea.

Edited July 4, 2008 by hethathathears

[kona0197]

Why is it that people need physical evidence of BofM events? It's called prayer. Pray aboput the truth of the BofM - then you will now. Physical evidence will present itself in time. For example the city of Nahum has been found.

[mike_uk]

Why is it that people need physical evidence of BofM events? It's called prayer. Pray aboput the truth of the BofM - then you will now. Physical evidence will present itself in time. For example the city of Nahum has been found.

I wish it was that simple. As stated in another thread I never got my witness of the truthfulness of the BoM, never. Not everyone does. My wife, a lifelong member has never either but she just accepts it and hopes her witness will come some day. However, regardless of that and my feelings toward the church there are still some fine principles in the BoM.

[Snow]

Question that's been on my mind for some time. According to the Book of Mormon, Christ visited America and established his church on the continent. He had direct contact with at least some Native Americans and many no doubt would of heard of him indirectly. His church on the American continents lasted for several generations and was at least somewhat widespread.

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

Try New Evidences of Christ in Ancient America

Amazon.com: New Evidences of Christ in Ancient America: Blaine M. Yorgason, Bruce W. Warren, Harold Brown: Books

[Islander]

Question that's been on my mind for some time. According to the Book of Mormon, Christ visited America and established his church on the continent. He had direct contact with at least some Native Americans and many no doubt would of heard of him indirectly. His church on the American continents lasted for several generations and was at least somewhat widespread.

Seems to me like such an event would spark some enthusiasm, as far as general human tendencies go, some record of this would have to have existed outside of the Book of Mormon.

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself? Are there any other records anywhere or artifacts outside of what's given by the church to support the view that Christianity was ever part of American culture prior to European exploration/colonization?

Well, the same can be said about David or Solomon. Even though Israel is a very small place and there is a very coherent record for the last 5,000 years, extant evidence of outside of Israel is practically non-existent.

Other than the copies of copies of copies, no original text exist, not one single artifact can be traced to the Apostles and Christianity has florished. Jesus walked in Judea for 3 years and performed miracles seen by hundreds but there is no extra biblical evidence of it.

I doubt anyone would coin the bible "just a book with inspirational value" as well because of the lack of evidence.

[rameumptom]

Thing is, many accept the LDS Church, thinking they have not yet received a witness, when perhaps they have. I knew a guy many years ago that wanted to be a farmer, but chose to be a lawyer, because he knew the Lord needed him as a lawyer. Yet, this same guy believed he never had had a spiritual dialogue with God before. I asked him, "How then do you know you are supposed to be a lawyer?" He didn't understand why, he "just knew." And that's many times how a testimony begins. I've heard countless converts who have heard concepts they struggled with in their own Churches (baptizing babies, God as nebulous spirit vs God as exalted man, levels of heaven, continuing revelation, etc.), but immediately recognized the truth of these things when first listening to the elders.

Not everyone starts off with a First vision. Lorenzo Snow joined without having a surety, and it was a year or so after his baptism that he strongly received a witness that tingled his body from head to toe. He later became prophet. Imagine if he would have stopped trying, simply because he had not had that strong witness as of yet?

[omega0401]

What evidence or record of this event or other Book of Mormon events can we find outside of the Book of Mormon itself?

The best way to know the truth of the Book of Mormon is found in Moroni 10:4-5 which says...

4. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

There is no greater evidence than that which comes from the power of the Holy Ghost. That’s really the only evidence one needs. It’s faith that we need to exercise not archeological discoveries or other kinds of evidences.

Some people read and pray about it once and that's it. When that happens the Lord will sometimes try your faith. If you pray about it each time you read it, you will start to feel the spirit. And in prayer ask if the words you are reading truly come from a Prophet of God.

Edited July 6, 2008 by omega0401

[Misshalfway]

I understand how hard it is too look at a document such as the BofM and to believe such without the physical evidence. How wonderful if God would just come down and show us all the truths of the earth and the eternities all at once! Proving it would be so satisfying wouldn't it? But the very act of proving it, defeats the purpose.

The goal of the bofm is to the convincing of Jew and gentile that Jesus is the Christ. Not that Jesus was born and walked the earth and that a lot of people thought he was nice. This is a different kind of knowledge, and not only that it is a spiritual change that happens deep in the soul of the individual.

Show me the spiritual merits of proof? What can proof do to change the human nature and bring a person to their knees in humility and willingness to obey? What can historical evidence do to bring a soul to repentance? To change their course? To apply themselves to discipleship and love for mankind? I could argue that it does the opposite. It keeps people ever learning and never really coming to the truth. It keeps people at a safe distance from truth out of fear that it could be a two-edged sword in their lives. It is an excuse not to search the pages and more than that, search their hearts.

The proof of the BofM is in the very words on the page and what they do to ones heart and soul IF the one is open. They have the power to literally change the desires of the soul to righteous things and fill the mind with more truth with more sure evidence than any physical proof will ever provide.

You can prove a man named Jesus walked this earth, but you can't prove he is the son of God. But the Holy Spirit can convince any man who is humble enough to ask and obey. And then bring that soul to peace, and cleanliness and safety.

This thread can go on and on with no definitive and satisfactory results. Theraputic maybe in airing the concern. My invitation is to read the book in the spirit of genuine searching. Get into the words. Open your heart to the meaning. Banish fear and pride and intellectualism. And then ask God is if is NOT true.

Edited July 6, 2008 by Misshalfway

[mike_uk]

Yep, if the book is of God then the only wittness I will need is his own.

I took up the challenge to pray and ask, i did with so much sincerity I almost exploded. I approached God so many times in prayer throughout all my years of activity but it never came. For years I thought it was me possibly being unworthy or something. I just don't know. I have mentioned elsewhere that I even took it upon myself to attend BoM class's run in our Ward. I have taught Gospel Doctrine to the adults from it, taught our young men and women for years and nothing.

Then I look at all the times I have prayed, individually, as a family group and in my various church callings and assignments for specific reasons, some for advice, some more serious in nature and some just trivial and wonder why I have never felt anything.

Sitting in fast and testimony times and time again watching people sobbing their hearts out becasue of the amazing spiritual experiences they have had, the overwhelming anwsers to prayers etc. Very tough.

Sorry, not sure where im going with this, Just wanted to say I tried and the answer never came.

[rameumptom]

Yep, if the book is of God then the only wittness I will need is his own.

I took up the challenge to pray and ask, i did with so much sincerity I almost exploded. I approached God so many times in prayer throughout all my years of activity but it never came. For years I thought it was me possibly being unworthy or something. I just don't know. I have mentioned elsewhere that I even took it upon myself to attend BoM class's run in our Ward. I have taught Gospel Doctrine to the adults from it, taught our young men and women for years and nothing.

Then I look at all the times I have prayed, individually, as a family group and in my various church callings and assignments for specific reasons, some for advice, some more serious in nature and some just trivial and wonder why I have never felt anything.

Sitting in fast and testimony times and time again watching people sobbing their hearts out becasue of the amazing spiritual experiences they have had, the overwhelming anwsers to prayers etc. Very tough.

Sorry, not sure where im going with this, Just wanted to say I tried and the answer never came.

It may be that the Spirit is trying to answer you in other ways, rather than via emotions. Have you ever had thoughts enter your mind that enlightened you and made sense? Have you met someone whose testimony seemed convincing to you? The Spirit causes some to believe on the Son of God, and others to believe on their words.

I would also suggest doing as President Eyring stated in last Gen Conf: have a special journal, where you write down all of the spiritual events and miracles that occur in your life. Even if it is small, or you are unsure whether it was of God or just a coincidence, begin writing these things down. This needs to include events in your family's life, ideas and inspirations that come to you, etc. Then do this for a year. Perhaps it will help fine tune your senses in recognizing how the Spirit works, whether it leads you to a testimony of the LDS Church or not, it should help you to at least recognize God's hand in your life.

[SmilingRedhead]

Yep, if the book is of God then the only wittness I will need is his own.

I took up the challenge to pray and ask, i did with so much sincerity I almost exploded. I approached God so many times in prayer throughout all my years of activity but it never came. For years I thought it was me possibly being unworthy or something. I just don't know. I have mentioned elsewhere that I even took it upon myself to attend BoM class's run in our Ward. I have taught Gospel Doctrine to the adults from it, taught our young men and women for years and nothing.

Then I look at all the times I have prayed, individually, as a family group and in my various church callings and assignments for specific reasons, some for advice, some more serious in nature and some just trivial and wonder why I have never felt anything.

Sitting in fast and testimony times and time again watching people sobbing their hearts out becasue of the amazing spiritual experiences they have had, the overwhelming anwsers to prayers etc. Very tough.

Sorry, not sure where im going with this, Just wanted to say I tried and the answer never came.

and the answer hasn't come yet... :)

I just wanted to put a positive end on your post. I just don't believe there is a deadline on when you can receive an answer to a prayer or a witness of truth... There is always hope :)

And like Ram said... Have you considered whether the fact that "it generally just makes sense" (if it does :)) may be your answer/witness...?

In past times of doubt and confusion that is what I have held onto as my 'witness' as well as the many times I have felt the spirit in my life and God's love for me.

(I just need to mention that I don't mean to sound condescending at all and I don't know your full story either and I'm sorry for further hijacking this thread...:))

Edited July 6, 2008 by SmilingRedhead