Does Magic Exist?

[FunkyTown]

I think this is a good question for many reasons, but I thought I'd chime in. Do I think 'Magic' in the way most people think about it exists? No. If, every time you said something in Latin or Ancient Greek something weird happened then Rome and Sparta had a lot of strange occurences whenever someone said "Pass the butter".

On the other hand, there are miraculous happenings and even Biblically it talks about the inferior magics of the Egyptians. In India, Fakirs can do strange things. Is there such a thing as what the Aborigines of Australia call the Dreamtime?

The truth is I don't know.

[prospectmom]

How about the song " Do you belive in magic?" old song but my version of magic :}

[VisionOfLehi]

As far as personal jabs Vision ----- I do know on this site you talk more than listen... you don't try to understand always ( sometimes you do) what someone is saying...... you seem very judgemental and puffed up... self-rightious but on the other had you are compassionate, kind, supportive , and full of facts and good information......

Should my opinion be based only on the bad I see or the whole picture.... The point I am trying to make is there is more than one side to a word , a subject , anything....

It seems to be a kill and destroy mission with you and you miss the whole picture when you only look at the narrowist part.

Haven said all that I appreciate all the positive you say on this site... but please don't be so judgemental

Go ahead and base your opinion on the bad you see, I do not care. I know you do not look closely at everything to get the whole picture, anyway.

I do not take my "beliefs" lightly. I will not treat them as mere beliefs when I have attained a knowledge of something. I will stand very firm in my knowledge, and will not treat it as "according to my beliefs" in some sort of wishy-washy political correctness. This comes off as arrogance or self-righteousness to some, and I'm fine with that. People are often offended these days when someone can claim sure knowledge.

When I have an opinion, I will state it's an opinion. When I am not sure, I do absolutely say so.

When someone is right, or I agree with them, I do not find it necessary to post a reply saying so, especially if someone else is already doing so. It's superfluous, unnecessary.

When I post, it's because I actually have something to say. I will not reply to a long post in a debate and pick out every little thing the person has said, saying what I agree with and what I don't. If I don't reply to it, then it means I'm chewing on it, I agree, or I think the point is moot or is just ready to be dropped.

I spend my time reading posts, and learning, more than I do commenting.

My LACK of replying to each and every thing is EVIDENCE that I do listen and am trying to understand, thank you very much.

To try and teach me that there is more than one side to every story, subject, or word is to debase my intelligence and my experience. I have often played several sides of one story, debated from multiple viewpoints of a subject, have always been considered an empathic individual, and am extremely capable when it comes to discerning the nuances of the multiple meanings of words in the English language.

You call ME narrow-minded when you comment only on what YOU see, and what you WANT to see. You accuse me of the very same thing that you are doing.

And throughout OUR dialogue you have consistently called my wrong and narrow-minded, and then you have said such things as "All things magical are a gift from GOD I wish you could see that...." which is AGREEING with what I have been saying.

Which leads me to believe you simply don't understand my manner of speaking, or simply skim my posts and take out what you prefer to label as my opinion.

And I have not called you wrong in your belief at all, I have been correcting you on the term you are using. If we were having a discussion on blue, as pertaining to the spectrum of light, you are doing the equivalent of talking about things that are colored blue, and not the light itself. And there is a difference there, and that's what I'm pointing out.

[MarginOfError]

Magic is always having a friend wearing big red shoes.

[prospectmom]

Thank You again Vision for proving how arrogant some men can be........... mabey your age and inexperience is the reason........... I said nothing wrong and my beliefs are not wishy washy... I choose to use a softer approach than a sledge hammer. You again failed to recognize the nice things I said .

Thats ok I think you and I are done here right??????? Neither of us are getting anywhere in continuing ok!

Peace and enlightenment to you.......:}

[prospectmom]

Magic is when someone gets what your saying and adds positivly to it....:}

[VisionOfLehi]

Thank You again Vision for proving how arrogant some men can be........... mabey your age and inexperience is the reason........... I said nothing wrong and my beliefs are not wishy washy... I choose to use a softer approach than a sledge hammer. You again failed to recognize the nice things I said .

Thats ok I think you and I are done here right??????? Neither of us are getting anywhere in continuing ok!

Peace and enlightenment to you.......:}

You have been warned multiple times about personal jabs and judgments. You get no more warnings.

I never said YOUR beliefs are wishy washy, I said MINE are not. Once again you apparently demonstrate that you are not listening to what I am saying, and instead resort to Ad Hominem attacks to try and somehow counter my approach. And this has not been the only thread that you have treated me as such, and have not recognized what it is that I'm actually saying.

[prospectmom]

Again are we done I choose to politely disagree with you can you not do the same?????

You do not listen so the is no sense talking..........

Peace and enlightenment to you.................

[prospectmom]

Magic is the quiet time you can reflect on this life we lead...........

[hordak]

I thought Magic was "pokemon" for awkward teen boys?

Nope. My brother plays it.He's 27. It's for awkward adults as well.

[prospectmom]

I played it with my grandson but the rules always changed and he stomped me........

[nannysherri]

Vision is making some good points. I would caution that anything not in the lines of authority of the priesthood should be avoided. Prospectmom you should be carefull saying using magic is ok if you are wise enough to tell the difference between the good and the tricks of Satin. The gifts of God are spirtual in nature and only given to those worthy and they are NOT forms of magic. Vision may be young but he is making very good choices and his answers are correct. The sunset, babies etc.. are beautiful gifts from heaven.

[prospectmom]

The sunset, babies etc.. are beautiful gifts from heaven

and are magic to me

I would caution that anything not in the lines of authority of the priesthood should be avoided

not going against any teachings just your and Visions interpretation

The gifts of God are spirtual in nature and only given to those worthy and they are NOT forms of magic.

Never said they were " forms of magic" They are magical gifts from God

You are cautioning over symantics. All that is good, positive in this world is from GOD it is also magical and wonderous and miraclulous OK :}

[skalenfehl]

Folks, the question is 'does magic exist?' Misshalfway suggested early on that it needs to be defined before discussing its reality. Both Vision and prospectmon are correct, each in their own understanding of the heteronym. But to call VisionOfLehi and me narrow minded because of our definition is unproductive (see rule #3 in terms and conditions). Let's show consideration and understanding of the fact that there is more than one correct definition and to subscribe only to one definition is not necessarily narrow minded just because there is more than one meaning. Thank you.

[prospectmom]

But Visions slams and critisisms are ok well thats that then...........

Skale I apologize for calling you narrow minded and I appreciate your ability to see anothers side.

I try to live in the positive and it seems I was put down by Vision far more than I put him down but he is a moderator so can do as he pleases I guess.... not sure ...... confused about a reprimand this late in the game and after all that has been said in all the posts on this subject.....

I will always stand up for myself

[skalenfehl]

Looking at the first four or five posts, we can see opinions differing. It is how each one was worded that separated an opinion with an affront. There's nothing wrong with sticking to your guns as long as your not poking the barrel end of a loaded one at someone else.

I think we can continue this discussion optimistically and objectively once we decide on which definition to discuss. I propose we discuss prospectsmom's definition first.

The enchantment, the goodness of a sunrise is magic. So is love at first site. I agree. Other thoughts?

[prospectmom]

Mabey I shouldn't be here at all.................

[prospectmom]

For some reason I have lost all interest in talking about this any longer ........ I feel very sad about the whole thing go ahead and dwell on the evils on the world..............

I came to this site for the positive and have ran into a huge negative force ( how I feel no name calling) so mabey I should just keep to myself............

[skalenfehl]

Prospectmom, please don't keep to yourself. This is a positive site. We just need to understand that we have different opinions. I don't think Vision was slamming you, but he was defending himself off the bat when he was called narrow minded and wrong and began pointing out his definition along with others to support his statement. The thread devolved from there. Let's just see where this goes. I'm curious about Traveler's intentions with starting this topic.

[VisionOfLehi]

"That's magical, it's not magic. It's miraculous, not magic."

Thats your opinion Vision....not mine this is one of those things that I know I am not going against our religion I am not believing anything contrary to the teachings........ I just don't have such a narrow view on life as you do Vision

Never said they were " forms of magic" They are magical gifts from God

You are cautioning over symantics. All that is good, positive in this world is from GOD it is also magical and wonderous and miraclulous OK :}

You're not even being consistent with your own argument.

Does magic exist, or do magical gifts from God exist? Are the magical gifts in themselves magic? Or is what satan works magic?

[prospectmom]

Why do you bold thigs I write that I didn't Bold???????

I no longer wish to debate this with you you never sesm to try and see where I am coming from.

magic exists and it all is from God never have I stated different....... You are on the attack still .......... I surrender you are oh so right Vision will that end this cause I really am at the end of my rope here do not like what I write twisted and manipulated to your own end what ever that is............

I wasn't trying to argue just state my beliefs........ you seem to love to argue .......... why???? what is so hard in agreeing to disagree... And the last qoute you posted wasn't even to you......

Let it go we obviously can't agree on much

Edited July 9, 2008 by prospectmom

[VisionOfLehi]

I bold the relevant portions. It's called "emphasis."

I'm happy to agree to disagree. But condescending to me, calling me names, and calling me wrong, is not "agreeing to disagree." Giving me compliments in the midst of non-constructive criticisms isn't actually giving me compliments.

And for the most part, I do agree with you. Your terminology is what I believe is wrong, not your beliefs. I have stated as such.

I'm an artist. My main area of study is the human body, the figure. It's so complex, so beautiful, that it was a witness to me that Man was not just a creature of evolution, but the product of something Divine.

The shapes and curves! The straights and corners! All combined into one pleasing appearance that's more than just a product of environment. I know I might be biased, but humans look good!

And intelligence, sentience? There's something magical in that. The way children naturally develop language is absolutely sublime.

And the sheer complexity of muscle, and bone, and veins, and organs, and neurons, all working together to form a functional body and personality... Astonishing.

These are great and wondrous things! Magical! Awesome! Spectacular!

And as I've studied the scriptures, and teaching in the Church, I've come to realize all of this is the power of God. The Priesthood, which holds the sun in place and causes it to shine so graciously upon us, is also responsible for all the beauty of this world.

All good things come of the LORD. This I know. And these are good things.

[prospectmom]

I have always countered a negative with a positive that is a good thing and I am quick to take fault when needed I apologized to Skale............. Your continued attacks make it hard for me to apologize to you..........

You only corner the market on calling people wrong right?????

Your opinion is the only one tha counts right . I have been nothing but honest and straight forward with you. I neither wish to argue or compliment you again you are sadly bringing me down , put me down and quite honestly I don't get it.....

[skalenfehl]

This isn't working. This is about discussing each correct definition of the same word. That does not make the other definitions of the same word incorrect. I'm going to lock this now. I had hoped this could resolve itself and there's no point in distancing ourselves from each other over the word magic as this thread is anything but.

[VisionOfLehi]

Two things:

1) I have not put you down once. If that's what you're getting out of it, I'm really sorry. But that's not what I'm doing. I've been keeping quite cool (though still blunt) even though in every post you direct at me you have something negative to say about my character. I have not said anything about you. I do not dislike you. I do not wish anything malevolent towards you. There is one specific thing that I disagree with you about at this time, and I'm voicing that disagreement.

So, again, if you're seeing something other than that, I'm sorry. It's not my intent. I'm not one to sugar-coat my responses. I leave them rather raw, but that's not something that happens with a negative intent, and not something directed strictly towards you. (As you've commented, it happens in many of my posts.)

One more time. I'm being honest here. I don't want to seem as if I'm being sarcastic or anything. I've voiced my opinion and stated my side. If I said something that was actually a put down to you, I am sorry. I did not see it in my posts, but sometimes I am oblivious.

2) I just saw this:

So is love at first site. I agree. Other thoughts?

I'd say no. It's "tragic" not "magic." Asking for a world of hurt there!

Edited July 9, 2008 by VisionOfLehi