Does Magic Exist?

[Traveler]

Just wondering about magic and opinions of magic. For example - I believe in magic. I believe that math and music are both forms of expressing and using magic.

The Traveler

[prospectmom]

I belive in magic but I also belive Satan uses magic to fool us...... Easy to discern if your paying attention

[skalenfehl]

I used to make quarters disappear. It's an illusion. The illusion is real. Making the quarter disappear isn't. Magic is simply illusion/deception, in my opinion.

[VisionOfLehi]

No such thing as "magic."

There's illusion and misdirection.

There's science.

There's the priesthood.

And then there's satan's power to work "miracles"

[prospectmom]

You guys are narrow minded and wrong.....

[skalenfehl]

You guys are narrow minded and wrong.....

A flame? That came out of left field and it wasn't very nice, especially considering you didn't back up your claim. I think you can word that better and substantiate your opinion. :)

[prospectmom]

How can you say theres no magic............... Mabey your idea of magic is different than mine. A beautiful sunset, a babies smile , the way everything works out even when it seems it won't, miracles and magic go hand in hand......... If the magic dosen't go against the gospel what is the problem?

[MaidservantX]

I was going to say . . . the OP needs to define "magic" and we can discuss that definition.

MY definition of "magic" is the ability to have the elements of the multi-metaverse obey your instructions. So I'd have to say, yes.

Now, methods . . .

[Moksha]

I know some people think items like ouija boards and tarot cards contain some kind of magic. Seems rather superstitious to me, but maybe they are making a leap of faith like we all do with our other beliefs.

[prospectmom]

Magic is simply illusion/deception, in my opinion.

__________________

Skale how can you say this????

So the mist rising of the lake in the early morning, birds singing and the sun just cresting the horizon isn't magical its an illusion/deception

[MrNirom]

It is obvious that the word Magic.. needs a definition.

[prospectmom]

ouija boards and tarot cards contain some kind of magic BLACK MAGIC

tools satan uses to fool and trick us.

[VisionOfLehi]

How can you say theres no magic............... Mabey your idea of magic is different than mine. A beautiful sunset, a babies smile , the way everything works out even when it seems it won't, miracles and magic go hand in hand......... If the magic dosen't go against the gospel what is the problem?

That's magical, it's not magic. It's miraculous, not magic.

the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

And that doesn't exist.

Humans don't control nature, the LORD does. And humans definitely don't control supernatural forces.

And all those things you listed... From whence do you think they came? That's right, by the power of the Priesthood.

I do not believe equating magic with effects of the Priesthood is accurate nor proper.

[prospectmom]

Well then we disagree and I am good with that....

[prospectmom]

That's magical, it's not magic. It's miraculous, not magic.

Thats your opinion Vision.... not mine this is one of those things that I know I am not going against our religion I am not believing anything contrary to the teachings........ I just don't have such a narrow view on life as you do Vision

Edited July 9, 2008 by prospectmom

[skalenfehl]

Magic is simply illusion/deception, in my opinion.

__________________

Skale how can you say this????

So the mist rising of the lake in the early morning, birds singing and the sun just cresting the horizon isn't magical its an illusion/deception

Obviously we referred to magic in two different contexts. I used to be a magician. So I can say with authority that I used magic to make people think I could make things disappear or appear. It was an illusion, a deception. It was entertainment.

What your saying is another kind of magic. Ever hear of the song, "Every little thing she does is magic" by The Police? Thats a whole different kind of magic. The relationship that I have with my wife is magic. So yes, from the context you describe I do believe in magic. I can think of quite a few words with the same spelling that have completely different meanings. The magic I'm referring to is defined as an exercise of sleight of hand. Yours is defined by a quality of enchantment. It's not a matter of opinion. Look it up in the dictionary. Yet another definition is to invoke the supernatural, as Moksha suggests. So who is right? We all are. Heteronyms are words that have different meanings, but are still spelled the same. There are many in the English language.

Edited July 9, 2008 by skalenfehl

[prospectmom]

Thank You Skale as we are looking at the word differently but I am aware of the darker side of magic like you've spoken of.

magic, miracles , miraculous, magical all one in the same to me

[VisionOfLehi]

That's magical, it's not magic. It's miraculous, not magic.

Thats your opinion Vision.... not mine this is one of those things that I know I am not going against our religion I am not believing anything contrary to the teachings........ I just don't have such a narrow view on life as you do Vision

You can stop with the judgments and personal jabs.

----

From Dictionary.com

1.the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic. 2.the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic. 3.the use of this art: Magic, it was believed, could drive illness from the body. 4.the effects produced: the magic of recovery. 5.power or influence exerted through this art: a wizard of great magic. 6.any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.: the magic in a great name; the magic of music; the magic of spring. 7.(initial capital letter) the U.S. code name for information from decrypting machine-enciphered Japanese wireless messages before and during World War II.

What you're referring to can be seen in definition 6 here.

From Merriam-Webster.com

1 a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b: magic rites or incantations

2 a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b: something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

And in an "artistic" sense, 2b here.

From Wikipedia.com

Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is a conceptual system that asserts human ability to control the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena) through mystical, paranormal or supernatural means. The term can also refer to the practices employed by a person asserting this influence, and to beliefs that explain various events and phenomena in such terms. In many cultures, magic is under pressure from, and in competition with, scientific[1] and religious[2] conceptual systems.

Is ABSENT here.

From Wikipedia.com, another article

Magic is a performing art that entertains an audience by creating illusions[1] or supernatural[2] feats, using purely natural means. These feats are called magic tricks, effects or illusions. of impossible

An artist who performs illusions is called a magician. Some performers may also be referred to by names reflecting the type of magical effects they present, such as prestidigitators, conjurors, illusionists, mentalists, ventriloquists, and escape artists.

A group of magicians, is referred to as a misdirection of magicians. This is according to Charles Harrington Elster's book There's a Word for it, published by Scribner.[3]

And absent here, as well.

From etymonline.com, an etymology dictionary

magic (n.) c.1384, "art of influencing events and producing marvels," from O.Fr. magique, from L. magice "sorcery, magic," from Gk. magiketekhne "art"), fem. of magikos "magical," from magosmagush, possibly from PIE *magh- "to be able, to have power" (see machine). Displaced O.E. wiccecræft (see witch); also drycræft, from dry "magician," from Ir. drui "priest, magician" (see druid). Transferred sense of "legerdemain, optical illusion, etc." is from 1811. Magic carpet first attested 1909. Magic Marker (1956) is a reg. trademark (U.S.) by Speedry Products, Inc., Richmond Hill, N.Y. Magic lanternlaterna magica. (presumably with "one of the members of the learned and priestly class," from O.Pers. "optical instrument whereby a magnified image is thrown upon a wall or screen" is 1696, from Mod.L.

Shows that magic has, by the nature and history of the word, referred to PEOPLE and and MAN-MADE objects to alter the world.

The supposition that man can control the world and the elements is a gross error. We do have science, yes, but progress in such has been by the will of the LORD, and although advanced is hardly mastered.

The artistic and poetic version of magic, to which prospect really refers to, is best seen here:

From dictionary.com

–adjective

8.employed in magic: magic spells; magic dances; magic rites.

9.mysteriously enchanting; magical: magic beauty.

10.of, pertaining to, or due to magic.

11.producing the effects of magic; magical: a magic touch.

From merriam-webster.com

Function: adjective

Date: 14th century1: of or relating to magic

2 a: having seemingly supernatural qualities or powers b: giving a feeling of enchantment

Which, as you can see, is an adjective. Something which DESCRIBES a noun, but is not a person, place, thing, OR idea on its own.

Using THAT in a discussion on the nature of magic is like discussing PIZZA on a discussion of the nature of GOOD, because you think pizza is a good food.

And the best example of a "magic" thing is found right in the scriptures:

Luke 12:27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

And would you like to guess the cross-reference is for "lilies" in that verse? Why, it's the LDS topical guide on Nature.

Topical Guide: Nature, Earth

Now let me see if I can try to sum this all up with my narrow mind. I'm not sure I can, though. See, I'm so narrow-minded that I went from contending that God did not exist and that organized religion was a joke, to becoming a faithful and happy member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I guess I really am not able to think beyond whatever beliefs I currently hold to accept something else. It just isn't in me.

But while there are many magical things in nature, they are not are not caused by human control of supernatural forces. The glory of GOD has made them so.

When man supposes that he has control over this forces, as they do when they claim they have magic, and sorcery, and witchcraft, then they are committing grievous sin which has been condemned throughout Scripture by the LORD.

And when you seem something beauteous and get so mesmerized that you forget that it was wrought by God's hand, or by talent given unto man BY God, then I think you are in error, as well.

Edited July 9, 2008 by VisionOfLehi
Tags.

[prospectmom]

6.any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.: the magic in a great name; the magic of music; the magic of spring.

an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b: something that seems to cast a spell

9.mysteriously enchanting; magical: magic beauty.

having seemingly supernatural qualities or powers b: giving a feeling of enchantment

Again you seem to read what you want... I refer to these in your own post

The lilies of the field are magical and as if by magic ( we both know is God) bloom every year.

You seem to look at the negative in everything, you can't seem to accept that we both could be right in how we look at the term.

I know of the dark side of magic and know its of Satan

I Know that what I am talking about isn't man made but a gift from God even if produced by a man

Edited July 9, 2008 by prospectmom

[Jbs2763]

I thought Magic was "pokemon" for awkward teen boys?

[VisionOfLehi]

And equating the power and authority of God with magic--which is something he condemns--is just not a wise decision.

I'm more than willing to accept that what you have described is magical, but the historical, cultural, and etymological evidence against them being actual magic are OVERWHELMINGLY in my favor.

I am not arguing that the things you have described are plain, ordinary, not enchanting, or not awesome and wonderful. I am saying they are not in and of themselves products of a supernatural force that is not of God.

[VisionOfLehi]

I thought Magic was "pokemon" for awkward teen boys?

Actually, "Poke Mon" is "Magic" for little boys.

[Misshalfway]

I believe in magic! What else could explain why my keys keep disappearing!!!

[prospectmom]

As far as personal jabs Vision ----- I do know on this site you talk more than listen... you don't try to understand always ( sometimes you do) what someone is saying...... you seem very judgemental and puffed up... self-rightious but on the other had you are compassionate, kind, supportive , and full of facts and good information......

Should my opinion be based only on the bad I see or the whole picture.... The point I am trying to make is there is more than one side to a word , a subject , anything....

It seems to be a kill and destroy mission with you and you miss the whole picture when you only look at the narrowist part.

Haven said all that I appreciate all the positive you say on this site... but please don't be so judgemental

Edited July 9, 2008 by prospectmom

[prospectmom]

And since I don't dwell in the evil side of magic ( although I know it exists) why can't my idea of magic be just fine.

All things magical are a gift from GOD I wish you could see that....