The Formality of Deity - What is God like?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

My good budy Vort posted a few thoughts on some other threads that I think are worth getting their own discussion for.

His original posts are here and here.

I'll quote the one that summarizes the question the best:

Many times, I have heard people say something similar to what Rachelle says above, about how there is no one they would more like to ___________ (discuss politics with, go fishing with, watch a ball game with, whatever) with than Jesus Christ. I once even heard someone give an urban legend (I was embarrassed for him when he repeated it, but I didn't say anything) about someone in the temple overhearing SWK or some other prophet engaged in conversation with another person in the Holy of Holies, even though they knew the prophet had gone in there alone. Supposedly, these two people were swapping jokes.

Is there not a gravity and depth about Deity that would preclude any such activities? Am I alone in feeling that such casual activities would be (at the very least) out of place if done with the Creater of all things? (Parenthetically, this is one of the objections I have to Bible "translations" that are rendered into vernacular English, where Jesus tells "Rocky", "Hey, chill, dude! Don't lose sleep over this!")

I would gladly swap jokes with my wife, or with my children, with my friends, perhaps with my leaders, maybe with my pets. And as far as might be possible with these same beings, I would probably discuss my feelings on films we may have seen. But if I were vouchsafed the privilege of conversing face to face with the Lord, I wouldn't swap jokes. Nor, with all due respect to Rachelle, would I discuss polemic motifs of films. If ushered into the presence of the Lord, I just can't see myself greeting Christ with a fist-bump and saying, "Hey there, Jesus! My main man! How's it hangin'?"

[bytor2112]

Perhaps we already have and don't remember......it will be very interesting to see how well we know our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when the veil is lifted.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Personally I think the manner of our greeting with our Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ depends entirely upon the situation.

For example: your attitude and formality when saying "Hey Dad, you wanna go fishing?" differs from "Hi Dad, can I borrow $500" and again from the atonement example "Thanks, Dad, for bailing me out of jail."

I think our first meeting in the Spirit World after our deaths will probably be very much as Vort would suggest. But when that's all said and done and we pass him on the street during the Millenium, will we still bow and cry and kiss his feet? The poor man wouldn't get anywhere!

To quote from my first response on another thread where Vort brought this up:

I wouldn't bump fists first - I'd hug him THEN bump fists. And maybe invite him out for a paintball or laser tag match. The LDS Gospel teaches - EMPHATICALLY - that God the Father is our FATHER and that Jesus Christ is oure BROTHER. These family labels are not applied arbitrarily out of a technicality about our creation, but carefully as a description of our personal relationship with them and the kind of relationship we need to have with them.

As an exercise in understanding how close your relationship is, I suggest you imagine Christ coming to church clean shaven with a suit and tie - the standard "uniform" prescribed by His prophets. Another exercise - we all can imagine if we met the Lord, what WE would say, but can you imagine what HE would say? I think if you truly know Christ, you would have no trouble knowing how he would greet you.

[Justice]

I hear General Authorities tell jokes in General Conference all the time, in good taste and in good manner.

I would think whether or not you felt comfortable joking around with someone is determined by how well you know them.

Something to think about, if indeed President Kimball was overheard telling jokes with Him.

I've always believed God has a sense of humor. However, I have too many things to discuss with Him, and don't spend enough time doing it, to spend my time with Him telling jokes that He has no doubt heard already. :)

[MarginOfError]

If I were to speculate, I would guess that the first few times we meet Christ we would be in awe and reverence, and rightly so. But as with all things, the shock starts to wear off. After the initial awe, is it unreasonable to think that we would develop enough comfort in His presence to greet and treat him like we do our friends?

[Stampede]

Okay, let me point something out from the new Joseph Smith Manual for priesthood and relief society.

Henry W. Bigler recalled: “Speaking about praying to our Father in heaven, I once heard Joseph Smith remark, ‘Be plain and simple and ask for what you want, just like you would go to a neighbor and say, I want to borrow your horse to go to [the] mill.

Throughout his life, Joseph Smith would turn to God in prayer to seek the help and guidance he needed. A Church member recalled hearing him pray in Kirtland, Ohio, at a time of great personal difficulty: “Never until then had I heard a man address his Maker as though He was present listening as a kind father would listen to the sorrows of a dutiful child. … There was no ostentation, no raising of the voice as by enthusiasm, but a plain conversational tone, as a man would address a present friend. It appeared to me as though, in case the veil were taken away, I could see the Lord standing facing His humblest of all servants I had ever seen

I take away from these 2 paragraphs that The Lord does want us to converse normally with him. But with respect. We owe everything to our heavenly Father and Jesus Christ our brother. It will be just like a family unit when we get back up there. Our Father will know who each of us are and we will remember all of our brothers and sisters. some of which we have met in this life, some we will probably miss because we have been separated for so long. I cannot describe how great it will feel when we are finally reunited with our celestial family. and how much gratitude we will feel for our Brother Jesus Christ.

[Misshalfway]

I haven't read every post so forgive me right off the bat.....

I love the idea of familiarity with diety.....but cringe a bit at the casual nature of such expression.

I remember one story that has always charmed me. I don't even know if it is true or where I heard it. I think it was told by Camila Kimball. Apparently Pres Kimball was sitting in a arm chair and reading the funnies. He approached Camilla to tell her the joke. She was uninterested and so he went down the hall and prayed to God to share the joke with Him!

Now, on the other side, I was taught on my mission to never forget who I was praying to. One GA visited and counseled us to try and wear our best missionary clothing when we prayed to show respect to creator of all.

This is counsel perhaps for missionaries of my mission only. Counsel that I don't find works well in my life considering I pray in every condition.....from hospital beds and many midnights and even in the shower!

I think what I am trying to say is familiarity should be tempered with reverence. We must never forget that He is indeed a most approachable Father, but that he also lends us breath and that he can take it at any time!

[prisonchaplain]

"Lord God, you are Creator of heaven and earth, and the lover of my soul!" We struggle here with the omnipotence--the great power--of God, vs. his intimacy--his willingness to be close to us. In Scripture, the prophet Isaiah comes into the presence of God, and is humbled and undone. Yet, David sings, "Abba (literally 'daddy') Father, deep within my soul I cry..." Moses contends with God, and yet Job bows in obeisance, when God says, "Who art thou, O man, to counsel me?"

No clear answers here...but I would end with the counsel of Jesus: If we want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must become as children.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

"Lord God, you are Creator of heaven and earth, and the lover of my soul!" We struggle here with the omnipotence--the great power--of God, vs. his intimacy--his willingness to be close to us. In Scripture, the prophet Isaiah comes into the presence of God, and is humbled and undone. Yet, David sings, "Abba (literally 'daddy') Father, deep within my soul I cry..." Moses contends with God, and yet Job bows in obeisance, when God says, "Who art thou, O man, to counsel me?"

No clear answers here...but I would end with the counsel of Jesus: If we want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must become as children.

Indeed. And we all know how reverent children are towards their parents! It's telling that Jesus himself addressed God as "Abba"--if we are to follow Jesus' example, then it seems to me that a certain familiarity is appropriate.

I might be tempted to ask God to tell me the funniest joke in the universe!

His Excellence, the Primate

[Stampede]

I'm very sure that God has a sense of humor, else why did he create midgets, belly buttons, and the platypus?

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I'm very sure that God has a sense of humor, else why did he create midgets, belly buttons, and the platypus?

LOL For that matter, why else would he create me?!

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

but that he also lends us breath and that he can take it at any time!

Ew. No offense, but that thought just seems to negetive to me. It seems to focus on fear (terror) and not love, respect, and the incredible mind-blowing capacity and desire that our Heavenly Father has to GIVE, and not to take away.

I might be tempted to ask God to tell me the funniest joke in the universe!

I'm not sure that we could handle laughing that hard in our carnal and fallen state you might sufficate from the strain. I suggest waiting till the resurrection

When I pray personally, I think of it more as a conversation than a petition - which is hard considering how infantile my faith is. I generally end up having a rather one-sided conversation, but that is more because I don't listen, not because he doesn't talk. I'm in the midst of learning now to balance that conversational familiarity with the reverence and respect due a deity. I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, that how we approach God depends a lot upon the circumstances of our speaking with Him.

:edit:

I do remember hearing a Mormon urban legend that Joseph Smith prayed one time over a meager family meal "Father, we're grateful for what we have but we wish we had more. Amen." which was followed immediately by a knock at the door from a loving saint offering a loaf of bread. I've never bothered to substantiate that story....

Edited August 1, 2008 by puf_the_majic_dragon

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I've heard of and studied about many of the apocryphal "lost books", I even have a copy of them that I lent to a friend (who still needs to return them to me). In any case, that's a fun story :) I can't help but imagine God laughing hysterically at the joke.

[WANDERER]

I have to laugh. Today I took the wrong turnoff to work. Did I have time to double back and go the usual way? I was running late and I knew parking was going to be an issue for the day. I glanced up and saw the street sign: Progress Road. However I wasn't all that lost and headed for the right general direction and ended up ten minutes early...phew ; ) . Nudged or just a wrong turn. The funny bit is that I wouldn't turn the car around...just dealing with a normal life event was a point of frustration LOL. I guess the reverse question is also good to ask: how annoying is my quirkiness?

It's always good to get back to formalities and basics...they are the building blocks for having a good relationship with God. And if you've ever been in the middle of a disaster and in shock: go the Lords Prayer..sometimes they are the only words you can think of. I think of it as good training and foundations.

I think it is possible to be respectful while not quite standard according to what others may perceive LOL. From what I understand God is quite capable of letting people know if they are crossing boundaries. So I guess everyone needs to work this out on a personal and spiritual level. But in all honesty, even the best attempts would have to fall short....I would think.

[sixpacktr]

I think that as we come to love and trust our HF as Nephi did, then we can approach that 'casualness' that he had. And I don't mean casual in speech. I still think (and this is me, I can't change as it is so deeply ingrained in me) that the language of prayer prevails, even in my personal prayers (thee, thou, thine, art, hath, etc). I just feel that my HF is the Ruler of the Universe, and for me to address him in casual terms would be presumptuous at best. Again, that is just me.

As I have come to learn to trust HF though, I have found that my prayers are more heartfelt in gratitude and in pleading. I'm losing more and more of the 'rote' words and phrases, and simply making my wishes/statements/gratitude shown. It is a weird feeling, to know that you are getting thru. That he is listening, and is happy that I am finally getting it. Amulek's excellent discourse on prayer tells us to pray over EVERYTHING in our life.

Now, I can't tell HF a joke during a prayer. I feel it is too casual, bringing him down to my level. But I have stated that I'm sorry during a prayer when sometimes things strike me as funny and I laugh. He knows there is no disrespect meant, that it is simply my weird sense of humor.

I liked Puf's notion of our 'getting used to' the Savior. I think that it will be much like when we meet an Apostle or Pres Monson or some other of our heroes. At first we are awed and grateful, but as we associate with them more, we never lose that awe but we can talk to them normally. I feel that after that initial tear bath, that I will never lose that love and admiration, but I might be more inclined to speak more as an equal (knowing I never will be).

But I would never give him a fist bump, high five, etc. Christ will always get a hug from me...

[breeb]

First of all, I think it depends on our personality. We were created differently and I think our FH likes to see all our little quirks. My PB said that I would have an exciting life. At the time I took it to mean humorously exciting. Not exactly sure why but that was the impression I got. Yes, I have had MANY crazy things happen to me. My car caught on fire while I was driving and those kind of things happen so often that my family didnt even ask if I was ok. They knew I would be. It was the norm for me. My little brother was walking home from school and as he turned onto our street he saw my car burnt to a crisp and it didnt even phase him. I remember being on the phone with 911 and I just started laughing. I was laughing so hard I couldnt breath. The operator kept asking if I needed an ambulence too. I told her no Im fine. I just cant stop laughing. Then the laughter turned to tears. Anyway that is just one out of the many examples. The point is He definately has a sense of humor and I think its ok for us to have one too. On the other hand we do have to remember to show Him the respect He deserves, but an apropriate joke does not go agains that, IMHO. He's our Father and He wants to hear from us daily and if you have a particularly humorous day tell Him about it. I dont see the harm.

[Vanhin]

It will be with Christ just like it is with the Father. Speaking of Christ, I will never view the Creator of worlds without number and the Redeemer of mankind, as anything less than my Lord and my God. He is more than our Brother, or a great prophet, or our Most High Priest. When the veil is lifted, I think for the first time in the eternities, we will truly understand what Christ has done for us, and what the Father has done for us in sending his Son. But hopefully before that time, we will understand who Christ truly is. Those who are faithful to their testimonies of Christ will be heirs to the Kingdom of God, and will dwell in the presence of God the Father and his Christ forever. Not only is Christ completely submissive to the will of the Father, he is endowed with His power and authority, and he even looks like Him. Christ taught that if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father also. There's so much truth in the following scriptures:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:6-9)

The Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery saw the Lord in the Kirtland Temple:

The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber. His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father. (D&C 110:1-4)

I long for the day, however, when Jesus will call me his friend.

And again I say unto you, my friends, for from henceforth I shall call you friends, it is expedient that I give unto you this commandment, that ye become even as my friends in days when I was with them, traveling to preach the gospel in my power; (D&C 84:77)

So, it is reasonable to believe that we are commanded to become friends with the Father as well. We will learn that God truly is our Father, the perfectly loving and kind Father that we strive to be to our children.

One more scripture:

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

It will be with Christ just like it is with the Father. Speaking of Christ, I will never view the Creator of worlds without number and the Redeemer of mankind, as anything less than my Lord and my God. He is more than our Brother, or a great prophet, or our Most High Priest.

This is all true. But I think it is just as true to say it in the opposite order - that he is more than the Creator of Worlds and the Redeemer of Mankind, he is our brother and friend and confidant. I full-heartedly believe that the reason Jesus chose to suffer through the atonement was his love for us - a love born of the wonderful family relationship we have with him as spirit children of our Father in Heaven.

Being a brother, a friend, a confidant, a comrade, and dare I say a buddy does not lessen in any way the grandeur of his Godhood and the beauty of the Atonement.

The point is He definately has a sense of humor and I think its ok for us to have one too. On the other hand we do have to remember to show Him the respect He deserves, but an apropriate joke does not go agains that, IMHO. He's our Father and He wants to hear from us daily and if you have a particularly humorous day tell Him about it. I dont see the harm.

Absolutely! I think prayer is as much an opportunity to laugh about the good times as much as it is to cry about the bad. And as your example with the car shows, what is "good" or "bad" is often only in how we view it. I can honestly say the death of my mom when I was 19 was a good thing because of how it has strengthened and shaped the rest of our family's relationships. God looks out for us, even when we feel like he's intentionally out to get us.

[Vanhin]

This is all true. But I think it is just as true to say it in the opposite order - that he is more than the Creator of Worlds and the Redeemer of Mankind, he is our brother and friend and confidant. I full-heartedly believe that the reason Jesus chose to suffer through the atonement was his love for us - a love born of the wonderful family relationship we have with him as spirit children of our Father in Heaven.

Being a brother, a friend, a confidant, a comrade, and dare I say a buddy does not lessen in any way the grandeur of his Godhood and the beauty of the Atonement.

No doubt. We have lot's of great brothers, friends, comrades, and buddies. We even have many great prophets and priests and high priests. Only Jesus is the Redeemer of all mankind. In that he is unique. Technically Lucifer is our brother as well, and to many, he is a "buddy". So, I think I would still prefer my order in saying "He is more than a brother, he is our God and our Redeemer". I think the question is really, are we His friends? That's just how I see it I guess. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 8, 2008 by Vanhin

[Bookmeister]

HF and Jesus have to have a sense of humor, logically speaking. After all, we are created in the image and likeness of HF.