Testimony of Joseph Smith

[bytor2112]

Other Christian denominations certainly don't say," ok, before you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and you get saved, we want to make sure that you know about all of the things some Christians and church organizations have done in the past. Let's start with the Crusades........."

[Guest ceeboo]

Other Christian denominations certainly don't say," ok, before you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and you get saved, we want to make sure that you know about all of the things some Christians and church organizations have done in the past. Let's start with the Crusades........."

Hi Bytor, ( great picture :) )

Very different in my humble opinion, my 2 cents for what it's worth.

It is not some Christians or Church organizations or even the actions of JS the man. IT is indeed the actions ( polygamy ) that he prophetized that he was told to implement this by God through an angel. This is very different indeed when measuring this against the flawed and highly debated comparisons you offer by men or organizations.

At any rate, my thoughts,

God bless,

Carl

[bytor2112]

Some thoughts on why Joseph Smith concocted the Mormon religion:

1. He really enjoyed being the center of attention. The beatings, tar and featherings, threats against his life..... all big fun!!!

2. He really liked his accomodations. Liberty Jail....very pleasant indeed!

3. He did it for the money.... except he never had any.

4. He liked the stability it provided for his family.

5. He wanted to show everyone what a prolific writer he was......only he wasn't educated well enough to show off, so, no........

Joseph Smith was a selfless man. He never had money nor stability for his family. He was a man well aquainted with sorrow and struggle. He struggled against mobs, persecutions, false imprisonment and finally fell to a murderous mob. Does anyone really believe that he did it all to fulfill sexual desires? WHy would anyone go through the things he went through.....unless he was called by God?

[Guest ceeboo]

Some thoughts on why Joseph Smith concocted the Mormon religion:

1. He really enjoyed being the center of attention. The beatings, tar and featherings, threats against his life..... all big fun!!!

2. He really liked his accomodations. Liberty Jail....very pleasant indeed!

3. He did it for the money.... except he never had any.

4. He liked the stability it provided for his family.

5. He wanted to show everyone what a prolific writer he was......only he wasn't educated well enough to show off, so, no........

Joseph Smith was a selfless man. He never had money nor stability for his family. He was a man well aquainted with sorrow and struggle. He struggled against mobs, persecutions, false imprisonment and finally fell to a murderous mob. Does anyone really believe that he did it all to fulfill sexual desires? WHy would anyone go through the things he went through.....unless he was called by God?

Hello again bytor,

I gather you took offense to my post ( sorry, not my intention )

I will choose not to reply with a list of my own opinions (opinions being mute points as I see it when discussing historical FACTS )

To clarify my post in which you responded so kindly and with such circular reasoning, I personaly do not care if he was or was not "simply fulfilling his sexual desires". My comment to you was not in regards to the act of polygamy but rather the comparisons you offered in the context of " christian groups " human ( debatable ) history. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. THIS TOPIC, POLYGAMY, WAS NOT A PART OF HIS PAST THAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO EQUATE WITH THINGS LIKE THE CRUSADES, BUT IT WAS HIS CLAIM OF PROPHESY THAT HE WAS INSTUCTED TO IMPLEMENT BY GOD.

God bless,

Carl

[prisonchaplain]

Other Christian denominations certainly don't say," ok, before you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and you get saved, we want to make sure that you know about all of the things some Christians and church organizations have done in the past. Let's start with the Crusades........."

Other Christian denominations do not say they are the only true church, that they restored the Church, and that their leaders are living prophets, who's words are on par with Scripture. The unique claims of your church mean that your church's history--especially that of Joseph Smith--will be heavily scrutinized.

[Islander]

Hi Bytor, ( great picture :) )

Very different in my humble opinion, my 2 cents for what it's worth.

It is not some Christians or Church organizations or even the actions of JS the man. IT is indeed the actions ( polygamy ) that he prophetized that he was told to implement this by God through an angel. This is very different indeed when measuring this against the flawed and highly debated comparisons you offer by men or organizations.

At any rate, my thoughts,

God bless,

Carl

I think the argument is so strident that it destroys the opportunity to discuss the issue (the BoM origin) on its own merits.

David was a disobedient prophet, a murderer and a fornicator but God forgave him and made him great among the nations. There are quite a few pages in the OT with his Psalms and the Savior descended from his loins. So, we can go and argue the historical David all we want but if our belief in the OT hinges on being able to reconcile such things I would have left Christianity a long time ago.

The key here is the message. Without reading the BoM cover to cover, making notes and THEN asking questions all other arguments are just that; empty, exhausted and more or less meaningless arguments.

Those Catholic should remember that a thousand years ago the Roman Church split in two never to be reconciled again over doctrine and practice. So, who was right and who was wrong? That depends on who you ask. The same principle applies here. I would start with the true intent of the "seeker."

[prisonchaplain]

WHy would anyone go through the things he went through.....unless he was called by God?

I've suggested this before: Joseph Smith was deeply troubled by the divisiveness he saw in Protestant Christianity. Certain Calvinist doctrines, such as Predestination and a large, eternal, lake of hellfire, were is especially awful and wrong, in his view. In his search for truth and reasonableness, did he encounter God's messengers in visions, and proceed to restore the one true church, or did something else happen? His motivation, imho, was disappointment with the church of his day, and a belief that he come upon truths.

[goofball]

Correct me if I am wrong but Pope Benedict has come out and said that the Catholic Church is the only true church.

Links I found after a very quick but brief google search

Pope: Jesus formed 'only one church' - The Vatican - MSNBC.com

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says

[candyprpl]

I've suggested this before: Joseph Smith was deeply troubled by the divisiveness he saw in Protestant Christianity. Certain Calvinist doctrines, such as Predestination and a large, eternal, lake of hellfire, were is especially awful and wrong, in his view. In his search for truth and reasonableness, did he encounter God's messengers in visions, and proceed to restore the one true church, or did something else happen? His motivation, imho, was disappointment with the church of his day, and a belief that he come upon truths.

So PC you think he made it up because he was frustrated?

I can't imagine being frustrated enough to be willing to go through what he went through. At some point it seems that he would have said, "I can't do this anymore." If he wasn't a prophet and the Church wasn't being led by a prophet today would (those of us who do believe) still be working so hard to bring all present day revelations to a reality? Wouldn't the church have dissolved a long time ago?

[Misshalfway]

Seriously, Candy!! It would have taken a lot more than frustration to keep joseph motivated....not to mention all the early saints who suffered so greatly because they believed him.

[rameumptom]

I think PC is saying that Joseph was frustrated with what was available, and believed in the visions and revelations he claimed to receive. The only issue, then, is whether they were real visions, or if they were something else (hallucinations, devils appearing, or some chemical reactions).

The problem with these being hallucinations, is that others shared in many of his visions. Oliver Cowder, David Whitmer and Martin Harris saw Moroni. Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon saw Jesus with him. Hundreds of saints saw angels and Christ at the Kirtland Temple dedication. So, if they weren't real, then Joseph was a master of mass hallucinations.

Such was an event that does not occur with other Restorationist religions, such as with Eddy or White - they received solo revelations, with no other witnesses.

As for the "problem" with polygamy - just what is the real problem? God allowed it in the Bible, didn't he? If we reject the prophet Joseph for polygamy, then to be consistent, we must reject Abraham, Jacob and Moses. You can't have it both ways, Ceeboo.

[candyprpl]

seriously, Candy!! It Would Have Taken A Lot More Than Frustration To Keep Joseph Motivated....not To Mention All The Early Saints Who Suffered So Greatly Because They Believed Him.

My point exactly!!!:)

[candyprpl]

I think PC is saying that Joseph was frustrated with what was available, and believed in the visions and revelations he claimed to receive. The only issue, then, is whether they were real visions, or if they were something else (hallucinations, devils appearing, or some chemical reactions).

I know what your saying. I had a near death experience and when I came out of the coma I had so many delusional thoughts. I was driving my family crazy with things that I thought were real. They still tease me about them. Even though the things I thought I was seeing and hearing were very real to me at the time I did realize after a bit that it was all in my head. I have had some sacred things happen and I know they were not a hallucination and I stand firm on that belief, but the other things, I stand just as firm knowing that they were hallucinations or delusions.

[Islander]

I've suggested this before: Joseph Smith was deeply troubled by the divisiveness he saw in Protestant Christianity. Certain Calvinist doctrines, such as Predestination and a large, eternal, lake of hellfire, were is especially awful and wrong, in his view. In his search for truth and reasonableness, did he encounter God's messengers in visions, and proceed to restore the one true church, or did something else happen? His motivation, imho, was disappointment with the church of his day, and a belief that he come upon truths.

I love how PC our friend PC(the poster) is.

He says things like: "the divisiveness he [Joseph}saw", "in his view" and then of course, questioning or rather the non-committal statement about whether Joseph actually saw God and His messengers.

PC, I know you are trying to be fair and to moderate to the best of your abilities. But, my dear friend, if you can not bring yourself to say that Joseph was a prophet and that he DID see the Father and the Son and other messengers sent from the presence of God, as a moderator you should not question it either. Let others respond to those questions if you can not do so in the affirmative. Just a friendly suggestion. :)

[bytor2112]

Hey Ceeboo,

No offense at all......my post was actually tongue and cheek and not directed to you at all. SOrry if you thought it was....... just my sad attempt at levity.

[bytor2112]

Other Christian denominations do not say they are the only true church, that they restored the Church, and that their leaders are living prophets, who's words are on par with Scripture. The unique claims of your church mean that your church's history--especially that of Joseph Smith--will be heavily scrutinized.

Umm.... what about Roman Catholicism? We don't immediately have a lesson on LDS history for would be converts anymore than Christians hold a class on early Christian history before someone is "saved". That's all.......

[prisonchaplain]

So PC you think he made it up because he was frustrated?

You overread my post. I only suggested that he was indeed frustrated and disappointed, not that he "made it up." I pointed out factors that were driving Joseph, not what he did with them. That is a matter for each of us to spiritually discern.

I can't imagine being frustrated enough to be willing to go through what he went through. At some point it seems that he would have said, "I can't do this anymore." If he wasn't a prophet and the Church wasn't being led by a prophet today would (those of us who do believe) still be working so hard to bring all present day revelations to a reality? Wouldn't the church have dissolved a long time ago?

I can only say, "Not necessarily." Many religions have those who were persecuted and martyred, and we would not say that all of them were equally true.

[prisonchaplain]

Correct me if I am wrong but Pope Benedict has come out and said that the Catholic Church is the only true church.

Links I found after a very quick but brief google search

Pope: Jesus formed 'only one church' - The Vatican - MSNBC.com

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says

While he has said this, the Church has also indicated that the Catholic Church is not the only pathway to heaven. And, since they only believe in one kingdom, it means I'll be with them, even though I'm not in their "one true church."

[Misshalfway]

While he has said this, the Church has also indicated that the Catholic Church is not the only pathway to heaven. And, since they only believe in one kingdom, it means I'll be with them, even though I'm not in their "one true church."

Can any Catholic people verify this or add perspective here???

[prisonchaplain]

I love how PC our friend PC(the poster) is.

He says things like: "the divisiveness he [Joseph}saw", "in his view" and then of course, questioning or rather the non-committal statement about whether Joseph actually saw God and His messengers.

PC, I know you are trying to be fair and to moderate to the best of your abilities. But, my dear friend, if you can not bring yourself to say that Joseph was a prophet and that he DID see the Father and the Son and other messengers sent from the presence of God, as a moderator you should not question it either. Let others respond to those questions if you can not do so in the affirmative. Just a friendly suggestion. :)

I'm "moderating" when I'm deleting inappropriate posts, or responding to complaints or rules violations. In this string, I'm writing posts.

If a dispute breaks out, and a moderator has been involved in posting on the string, we generally call on other moderators to do the moderating.

[prisonchaplain]

Umm.... what about Roman Catholicism? We don't immediately have a lesson on LDS history for would be converts anymore than Christians hold a class on early Christian history before someone is "saved". That's all.......

Catholics don't practice "crisis conversion." Rather, it is indeed a process that includes instruction in church beliefs and history, and requirements sacraments, including baptism. Additionally, although the RCC see itself as the true church, it also allows for Christians of other churches to spend eternity in the same heavenly kingdom.

[Guest ceeboo]

As for the "problem" with polygamy - just what is the real problem? God allowed it in the Bible, didn't he? If we reject the prophet Joseph for polygamy, then to be consistent, we must reject Abraham, Jacob and Moses. You can't have it both ways, Ceeboo.

Hello Ram,

Completly out of context and not an accurate account of what I posted.

I will try this again, I ceeboo ( aka Carl ) personaly have no problem with JS practicing polygamy, further, I am very aware of the biblical accounts of polygamy.

The context of my post was in reply to some ( you included ) that offered a comparison of past christian groups behavior, slavery, crusades, and others, as to why all the fuss over polygamy with JS. In addition, it was implied by some ( you included ) that he might simply be a disobedient prophet or he was human and to judge him for this would not be fair.

HE HIMSELF ( JS ) CLAIMED TO PROPHETIZE THIS POLYGAMY AS AN ORDER FROM GOD AND TO IMPLEMENT IT IMMEDIATLY. that is not only the context but also why I believe the comparisons are not a valid argument.

I do not reject him as a prophet for polygamy, but I would think that you should indeed accept him as a prophet for polygamy ( HE DID CLAIM TO PROPHETIZE THIS AS A PROPHET) ( so who really wants it both ways ? me or you ?)

God bless,

Carl

[prisonchaplain]

Can any Catholic people verify this or add perspective here???

http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/cathheav.PDF (Catholic website)

[Guest ceeboo]

Can any Catholic people verify this or add perspective here???

Hi Misshalfway,

My Catholic perspective ( thought you would never ask LOL :):):))

We ( Catholics ) believe all of our Christian brethren will hopefully through the grace of God make it to the SAME kingdom of heaven with our Lord and savior Jesus.

We also believe we are the universal one true Church ( with respect to the one that Jesus left us with ) and all other protestents have branched off of the same tree)

God bless,

Carl

[bytor2112]

Hi Misshalfway,

My Catholic perspective ( thought you would never ask LOL :):):))

We ( Catholics ) believe all of our Christian brethren will hopefully through the grace of God make it to the SAME kingdom of heaven with our Lord and savior Jesus.

We also believe we are the universal one true Church ( with respect to the one that Jesus left us with ) and all other protestents have branched off of the same tree)

God bless,

Carl

Funny.....we Mormons believe exactly the same thing....very cool!!