Testimony of Joseph Smith

[Guest ceeboo]

Would it make sense for Southern Baptists to spend time a few times a year to discuss how they broke off from the main American Baptist movement, over the slavery issue? Would it make sense for the Catholics to discuss the Inquisition or indulgences? How far back must something be in history, before it can be taken off the front page of the newspapers?

Hi Rameumptom,

With all due respect, the comparisons you offer ( Southern baptists, Catholics ) as a large group of peoples that have a resume of highly debatable topics indeed, are not the same as one man ( a self proclaimed prophet ) that was professing to be a living example as well as obedient to what God wanted directly from God. This is why, in MHO, the " front pages" are not only appropriate but rather predictable given the weight of importance to his claims.

God bless,

Carl

[rameumptom]

Joseph Smith never proclaimed to be an example. In fact, he was the first to admit his issues. The D&C shows God chastising him on various occasions and stating that the Lord was working through Joseph AND Joseph's weaknesses (see D&C 1).

Others may view prophets as perfect and infallible. We do not. The only thing that differentiates Joseph Smith from Billy Graham is that Joseph was given a prophetic calling and authority.

My point above is two-fold. First, that past history should be past history. Second, just because an individual finds something like polygamy distasteful, doesn't mean that it wasn't ordained of God.

[bytor2112]

The alleged letter that JS wrote to Newell K. Whitney's daughter should be evidence that he did not write the BOM.... my goodness at the poor grammar!!

[Guest ceeboo]

Joseph Smith never proclaimed to be an example. In fact, he was the first to admit his issues. The D&C shows God chastising him on various occasions and stating that the Lord was working through Joseph AND Joseph's weaknesses (see D&C 1).

Others may view prophets as perfect and infallible. We do not. The only thing that differentiates Joseph Smith from Billy Graham is that Joseph was given a prophetic calling and authority.

My point above is two-fold. First, that past history should be past history. Second, just because an individual finds something like polygamy distasteful, doesn't mean that it wasn't ordained of God.

Hi again Rameumptom,

At the risk of debating ( Not my reason to be a visitor on this forum ) The " example " of JS in regard to this is abslolutly the case. He claimed to have an angel tell him to implement polygamy. It was NOT a weakness of humanity rather a professed command by God.

I did not claim prophets to be infallible, you implied some do.

I would agree that the past history should be the past history, however to consider and try and gain perspective from that history does seem to be a worthy attempt. Further, it is my opinion, that the way we come to our truths is very much measured by that history.

God bless,

Carl

Edited July 29, 2008 by ceeboo
typo

[rameumptom]

Except that LDS teach that spiritual truth comes via the Holy Spirit. It is not based upon a person's philosophical research, but on whether the Spirit witnesses of it.

I do not have to have a testimony of history, as history is skewed by personal interpretations, assumptions, and missing data. Prior to finding the Nag Hammadi library, all we knew of Gnostics was the skewed version given us by the proto-orthodox Christian apologists that attacked them. Truly not the best place to get an objective view of Gnosticism. Nor would I get my "history" from an anti-Mormon website. Even for pro-Mormon and non-Mormon histories, there is still bias in what is included, excluded and how it is interpreted.

The issue isn't whether Joseph was a polygamist. If that's the case, then we should reject Abraham, Jacob and Moses, as well. The issue is whether these have been called as prophets. And that cannot be determined by reading history books.

[mike_uk]

The alleged letter that JS wrote to Newell K. Whitney's daughter should be evidence that he did not write the BOM.... my goodness at the poor grammar!!

I wondered who would be the 1st person to mention that hehe. Good job he had Oliver to do the writing and ensure the grammar was up to scratch.

[mike_uk]

Mike, it seems to me you are looking for reasons to leave the Church. Rather than spending your time over issues like this, which are between Joseph, Emma and God; perhaps you should spend it pondering the revealed doctrines. As it is, Emma had been commanded of God to accept this principle, and for a time, she refused. If God continues to command Joseph to obey, what is he supposed to do?

Isn't this on the same level as Abraham lying to Pharaoh about Sarah being his sister? Should we reject the Bible, because Abraham was told to lie, by God?

If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then focus on the true teachings and leave his personal life alone. If he was a false prophet, then just walk away and don't worry about it anymore.

We can find many reasons to stop being Mormon, or Christian, for that matter. Why would an all-knowing God call Judas Iscariot as one of his apostles? Why would God allow for an apostasy? Why would a loving Jesus call Gentiles, "dogs"? Why doesn't he just reveal himself to all mankind, and give us all an equal chance at salvation? Why does he allow Hitlers and other evil men in the world do their atrocious deeds? Why would he allow Moses and Joshua to wipe out cities of women and children - genocide?

Those who seek to find issues and problems will never find happiness, nor peace. Only those who look at the mark, and stop looking beyond the mark (Jacob 6) will find the true peace of the gospel.

I dont need an excuse to leave the church to be honest. If I was single, childless I would go. But for the sake of my family who I love I remain a member.

I do agree with you on some of these things about God allowing these attrocities and evil men to do their thing but if we go by church teachings on "free agency" then its differnet. God maybe cannot interfere. However, Jospeh was his prophet whereas Hitler was not.

If Jospeh had not devised a rediculous story about an angel with a flaming sword threatening to destroy him my issue on this would be smaller.

I dunno, the more I contemplate this stuff the more I question whether there realy is a God afteral.

I have become obsessed with church history that I do know.

[OtterPop]

I simply do not accept you and Elphaba's belief that Joseph Smith practiced polyandry. You state it as though it is a fact and is it not a fact. But that won't stop anti-mormons from trying to use it against us.

It is a historical fact that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. The LDS church's own family history website lists multiple marriages. This is not a topic to debate.

[jimuk]

Hi again Rameumptom,

At the risk of debating ( Not my reason to be a visitor on this forum ) The " example " of JS in regard to this is abslolutly the case. He claimed to have an angel tell him to implement polygamy. It was NOT a weakness of humanity rather a professed command by God.

I did not claim prophets to be infallible, you implied some do.

I would agree that the past history should be the past history, however to consider and try and gain perspective from that history does seem to be a worthy attempt. Further, it is my opinion, that the way we come to our truths is very much measured by that history.

God bless,

Carl

Hi ceeboo, Does it worry you that Joseph had more than one wife, does it really matter,all i know is i need to believe in him, he was a Prophet who's calling was to guide Jesus's church through such harsh times, and he did so to the best of his ability, he was a good, good, man, 1 wife or 100 wives who care's WE DO NOT PRACTICE POLYGAMY It is history, he restored the church for Our father, what do you want us to say about him.

As already mentioned there was other prophets long before Joseph who may or may not have practiced polygamy but i never see this discussed or ridiculed.

This is my own view on certain polygamous times such as the pioneers.

When family's were pulling handcarts, driving oxen pulled wagons, walking sometimes barefoot with their children, it is known that they met a lot of hostility along the way by "GOOD CHRISTIAN FOLK" who sometimes just for fun would take it upon their god fearing selves to do all they could to destroy these wonderful loving family's, and what better way than to murder them, now sometimes all that was left was the mother and children, because the father was dead.

Now what a loving caring people to take in these women and children into their own family and home/wagons, now we all know that it was not allowed for a woman to live with a man (under same roof) so what to do, do we leave them to starve, to freeze, no they were married to the man/family that took them in, none of gods laws were broken.

What a loving Father, and a loving caring people.

Please do not be so hard of heart and please do not see this as preaching. We will not go against Joseph whom we love, he was/is our brother who did all he could for us, i for one will not betray him, i testify to him being a true prophet of god, he could have turned away from the church (he may have well wanted to at times) but he couldent, who would have guided the saints and given them heavenly fathers words.

Oh dear i do hope i do not get a telling off this time lol

[mike_uk]

Jim, you are only standing up for what you believe in so dont worry about it.

[jimuk]

Thanks Mike, please try to stick with it matey.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi ceeboo, Does it worry you that Joseph had more than one wife, does it really matter,all i know is i need to believe in him, he was a Prophet who's calling was to guide Jesus's church through such harsh times, and he did so to the best of his ability, he was a good, good, man, 1 wife or 100 wives who care's WE DO NOT PRACTICE POLYGAMY It is history, he restored the church for Our father, what do you want us to say about him.

As already mentioned there was other prophets long before Joseph who may or may not have practiced polygamy but i never see this discussed or ridiculed.

This is my own view on certain polygamous times such as the pioneers.

When family's were pulling handcarts, driving oxen pulled wagons, walking sometimes barefoot with their children, it is known that they met a lot of hostility along the way by "GOOD CHRISTIAN FOLK" who sometimes just for fun would take it upon their god fearing selves to do all they could to destroy these wonderful loving family's, and what better way than to murder them, now sometimes all that was left was the mother and children, because the father was dead.

Now what a loving caring people to take in these women and children into their own family and home/wagons, now we all know that it was not allowed for a woman to live with a man (under same roof) so what to do, do we leave them to starve, to freeze, no they were married to the man/family that took them in, none of gods laws were broken.

What a loving Father, and a loving caring people.

Please do not be so hard of heart and please do not see this as preaching. We will not go against Joseph whom we love, he was/is our brother who did all he could for us, i for one will not betray him, i testify to him being a true prophet of god, he could have turned away from the church (he may have well wanted to at times) but he couldent, who would have guided the saints and given them heavenly fathers words.

Oh dear i do hope i do not get a telling off this time lol

Hello Jimuk,

I would respectfully offer that maybe you are a little confused with the context and flow of the posts.:)

your implication that I have a problem with JS and polygamy is far from accurate.

I would suggest that you read ( judging from your post to me, I would assume you have not ) the previous posts to the one which you replied to.

God bless,

Carl

Edited July 30, 2008 by ceeboo
typo

[bytor2112]

It is a historical fact that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. The LDS church's own family history website lists multiple marriages. This is not a topic to debate.

Otterpop,

He is referring to polyandry not polygamy. Polyandry is the practice of one woman being married to more than one man. I agree Joseph practiced polygamy. As for polyandry, it is my understanding that these unions were only sealings....or Celestial marriages.

[jimuk]

Hello Jimuk,

I would respectfully offer that maybe you are a little confused with the context and flow of the posts.:)

your implication that I have a problem with JS and polyamy is far from accurate.

I would suggest that you read ( judging from your post to me, I would assume you have not ) the previous posts to the one which you replied to.

God bless,

Carl

ceeboo i am so sorry i dont know what happened there lol, i have deleted it.

Very early in the morning here, bit brain dead i'm afraid.

[jimuk]

Does it worry some that Joseph had more than one wife, does it really matter,all i know is i need to believe in him, he was a Prophet who's calling was to guide Jesus's church through such harsh times, and he did so to the best of his ability, he was a good, good, man, 1 wife or 100 wives who care's WE DO NOT PRACTICE POLYGAMY It is history, he restored the church for Our father, what do you want us to say about him.

As already mentioned there was other prophets long before Joseph who may or may not have practiced polygamy but i never see this discussed or ridiculed.

This is my own view on certain polygamous times such as the pioneers.

When family's were pulling handcarts, driving oxen pulled wagons, walking sometimes barefoot with their children, it is known that they met a lot of hostility along the way by "GOOD CHRISTIAN FOLK" who sometimes just for fun would take it upon their god fearing selves to do all they could to destroy these wonderful loving family's, and what better way than to murder them, now sometimes all that was left was the mother and children, because the father was dead.

Now what a loving caring people to take in these women and children into their own family and home/wagons, now we all know that it was not allowed for a woman to live with a man (under same roof) so what to do, do we leave them to starve, to freeze, no they were married to the man/family that took them in, none of gods laws were broken.

What a loving Father, and a loving caring people.

Please do not be so hard of heart and please do not see this as preaching. We will not go against Joseph whom we love, he was/is our brother who did all he could for us, i for one will not betray him, i testify to him being a true prophet of god, he could have turned away from the church (he may have well wanted to at times) but he couldent, who would have guided the saints and given them heavenly fathers words.

Oh dear i do hope i do not get a telling off this time lol

[bytor2112]

Mike_uk

Have you ever read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon? If not, check it out it is a pretty good read.

[Guest ceeboo]

ceeboo i am so sorry i dont know what happened there lol, i have deleted it.

Very early in the morning here, bit brain dead i'm afraid.

Hi again Jimuk,

No problem at all :), by the way- good morning Jim

( almost my bedtime here )

God bless,

Carl

[omega0401]

It is a historical fact that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. The LDS church's own family history website lists multiple marriages. This is not a topic to debate.

Otterpop, the debate is not about multiple wives. You missed the point entirely. It's about Polyandry! If you knew what that meant, I don't think you would have written this post. Please look it up.

[pam]

The condition or practice of having more than one husband at one time.

[OtterPop]

Otterpop, the debate is not about multiple wives. You missed the point entirely. It's about Polyandry! If you knew what that meant, I don't think you would have written this post. Please look it up.

You're right. I was thinking polygyny. Sometimes I forget which is which.

[Palerider]

doesn't matter to me if its more than one wife or more than one husband.....just think of all the in laws a person would have.....thats enough to make anyone stop.....:eek::eek::eek:

[jimuk]

Just imagine the christmas presents you would have to by each year for the whole family.

It would definitely be a case of "right we are only buying for the kids this year"

[Palerider]

just Imagine The Christmas Presents You Would Have To By Each Year For The Whole Family.

It Would Definitely Be A Case Of "right We Are Only Buying For The Kids This Year"

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[candyprpl]

I guess there's a lesson in there somewhere... if you think that the Church has done "horrible things" on par with slavery and such.

The lesson, quite simply going along with the other posts, is -- people want to think that learning the true history of the church will somehow cause them to feel discieved thus causing them to not believe in the church. Catch my drift now?

[rameumptom]

Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, eh?

I just don't know of too many organizations or people that would do that. Imagine the blind date, which upon meeting you state, "You might not want to get too close to me. I've got a preponderance to drinking too heavy, and my gambling debts are outrageous!" Most of today's lepers do not go around warning, "Unclean! Unclean!"

Most companies and people seek to show forth their good side first, and then if needed later, to gently explain their warts and flaws later.

Some people would have us give them an easy out by encouraging them to leave. Why warn anyone about weaknesses, real or perceived (as I'm not convinced that polygamy, polyandry or polygeny are a weakness), up front? Those who want a reason to leave can do their own homework. Those who are sincere and gain a witness, will be able to deal with troubling issues, though difficult to hear later on.