Testimony of Joseph Smith

[bytor2112]

My wife really struggled with Joseph Smith and polygamy for a while. Last year, we had a musical presentation at the Church with the Stake choir dressed in 19th century era clothes and sang some wonderful songs. My wife and I were overwhelmed by the Spirit that was present. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened and hers is now very strong.

Joseph was an amazing man and I look forward to meeting him.I enjoy reading about him and marvel at all he accomplished. I was wondering if anyone else has struggled with him and what happened that increased your testimony of the Prophet.

[goofball]

Great to hear. I am amazed at what he has done and what he went through. Have you seen the video Praise to the Man. I would highly recommend it. Also check out this on youtube. YouTube - Joseph Smith and William W. Phelps

[Traveler]

My wife really struggled with Joseph Smith and polygamy for a while. Last year, we had a musical presentation at the Church with the Stake choir dressed in 19th century era clothes and sang some wonderful songs. My wife and I were overwhelmed by the Spirit that was present. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened and hers is now very strong.

Joseph was an amazing man and I look forward to meeting him.I enjoy reading about him and marvel at all he accomplished. I was wondering if anyone else has struggled with him and what happened that increased your testimony of the Prophet.

The more important the message of a prophet the greater the effort to discredit it.

Concerning the polygamy of Joseph Smith, I have found no convincing witness that he ever had any children with any woman other than Emma. I also find no convincing evidence that he ever consummated any of the “sealings” of the polygamous marriages touted by those that desire to discredit Joseph. The effort as I see it - is to imply as fact what some can only speculate.

Joseph had a unique boyhood friend that was well known in history for his anti-social attitudes. This friend likely knew Joseph when the first vision took place. He never desired position among the LDS. He was not much to follow any authority – yet he always supported Joseph. This support was not for money, position or praise. Orin Porter Rockwell knew Joseph as well as any man beyond Joseph’s parents and siblings. He was not the type to follow anything just to get along with anybody; Porter was outspoken and uncontrollable. Porter’s witness is set well in history and is a strong indicator that Joseph was honest and the prophet in his day. Porter never practiced polygamy. If anyone would discredit a fraud in a heartbeat it was Porter – and Porter knew as much about Joseph as any man.

The Traveler

[hordak]

My wife really struggled with Joseph Smith and polygamy for a while. Last year, we had a musical presentation at the Church with the Stake choir dressed in 19th century era clothes and sang some wonderful songs. My wife and I were overwhelmed by the Spirit that was present. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened and hers is now very strong.

Joseph was an amazing man and I look forward to meeting him.I enjoy reading about him and marvel at all he accomplished. I was wondering if anyone else has struggled with him and what happened that increased your testimony of the Prophet.

How's her testimony of the scriptures? A lot of anti Mormons like to bring this up allot .I've never understood the problem. If God would command the Jews to kill others to regain the holy land is polygamy really that far fetched? If we believe that Nephi killed laban to obtain the plates on Gods orders why would polygamy be a hang up?

I use logic.

[bytor2112]

Hordak,

I don't think polygamy is far fetched at all. My wife is about as true believing as one can be. That being said, we have only been involved in Church for 3 years and 4 months. Her "struggle" if you will occurred early on, the Joseph Smith dedication really inspired her. Yes, she has a strong testimony of the scriptures and all aspects of the faith....as do I. I am sure you are not implying that I am an Anti??!!! That wouldn't be very nice..............I use logic as well.... but mostly I have Faith and rely on the Holy Spirit.

[california_ave]

I've heard one historian say: "The doctrine of the Catholic Church states that the pope is infallible, but no one believes it; the doctrine of the LDS Church states that the prophet is fallible, but no one believes it." I think that is where alot of individuals' problems are with Joseph--they think he should be immortal.

Joseph was a man full of contradictions:

He had a powerful spiritual gift of revelation. He was also inspired by the mystical.He loved his wife and family dearly. He was a polygamist much to the pain of his wife.He inspired numerous converts to join his new sect. He was very inexperienced at leading his disjointed people.He was a good judge of character. He surrounded himself with power-hungry people like John C. Bennett.He could translate reformed Egyptian. He divined the BoM text from a peepstone.He could be very loving and caring. He could be quite angry and vengeful.He organized the priesthood leadership. He didn't leave a clear successor.He went like a lamb to the slaughter. He carried and used a gun.He taught sobriety. He opened a bar and drank alcohol.

Can he still be a prophet? Yes. I'd be worried if he didn't have flaws, because that would give no hope for me.

[hordak]

Hordak,

I don't think polygamy is far fetched at all. My wife is about as true believing as one can be. That being said, we have only been involved in Church for 3 years and 4 months. Her "struggle" if you will occurred early on, the Joseph Smith dedication really inspired her. Yes, she has a strong testimony of the scriptures and all aspects of the faith....as do I. I am sure you are not implying that I am an Anti??!!! That wouldn't be very nice..............I use logic as well.... but mostly I have Faith and rely on the Holy Spirit.

No, not at all. I was thinking maybe she just recently read some material put out by an anti on the subject.I could use a little more of faith myself.

[Snow]

I also find no convincing evidence that he ever consummated any of the “sealings” of the polygamous marriages touted by those that desire to discredit Joseph. The effort as I see it - is to imply as fact what some can only speculate.

Does that mean that you are unaware of the affidavits the Church collected in Salt Lake from the plural wives of Joseph whereby they attested to the consummations of their marriages, or that you find the affidavits unconvincing?

If the latter, 1. Why do you think the Church believed them? and 2. What evidence are you aware of that his plural wives were lying? Following question: If you think they were lying, do you think that they all conspired to lie?

Are you aware of what Richard Bushman says on the topic?

[prisonchaplain]

One thing to keep in mind: Non-LDS have a different standard for assessing Joseph Smith. The fact that we are not church members means that the status quo for us is the presumption that he was not a true prophet. Therefore any odd, strange, or seemingly negative facts will bolster our doubt.

LDS members, on the other hand, usually already have personal spiritual experiences affirming Joseph Smith as a prophet. Therefore, criticisms of him will, rightfully, be met with immediate suspicion and hostility. I'd feel the same way about criticisms of Jesus!

So...the true "Anti" has a tough job...attempting to overwhelm strong religious convictions with information that is usually open to interpretation. Likewise, short of that spiritual experience affirming Joseph Smith, LDS have a tough job convincing those outside the church, using mere information with positive interpretations.

But hey...the discussing can be interesting, it can strengthen testimonies, and we can learn where others are coming from. So, imho, God remains pleased with our efforts.

[Elphaba]

Concerning the polygamy of Joseph Smith, I have found no convincing witness that he ever had any children with any woman other than Emma.

That depends on what you mean about “witness.“ There is a “witness” that he had children with another woman.

However, there is no DNA proof that he had any children by another wife, so I think the possibility of finding one by now is small. I think any ancestral lines would have been discovered by now.

I also find no convincing evidence that he ever consummated any of the “sealings” of the polygamous marriages touted by those that desire to discredit Joseph.

One of the better evidences is, when Emma finally agreed to let Joseph have a pair of sisters for wives, she could hear Joseph with one of them in behind a locked bedroom door. She simply could not tolerate that, although she sincerely tried. But after that, she never accepted polygamy again.

In fact, it is possible their marriage might not have survived if Joseph had not been killed, and the Church had continued practicing polygamy.

There is more than enough evidence Joseph consummated some of his marriages, and to ignore it is to play with historical and important facts because you think they discredit Joseph.

I don’t think his consummating his polygamous marriages discredits Joseph. Why do you?

The effort as I see it - is to imply as fact what some can only speculate.

Nonsense. There is plenty of evidence Joseph consummated some of his marriages. Even Eliza Roxey Snow acknowledged she and Joseph’s marriage had been consummated.

Joseph had a unique boyhood friend that was well known in history for his anti-social attitudes.

Which included cold-blooded murder, theft, and lots of whiskey. Lots and lots of whiskey.

Porter Rockwell was an amazing character. In his day he was as well-known as Jesse James, Wyatt Earp or Butch Cassidy. He had a reputation that went far beyond the Utah borders, and he was considered tough, rough and fearless.

This friend likely knew Joseph when the first vision took place. He never desired position among the LDS.

Both are true.

He was not much to follow any authority – yet he always supported Joseph. This support was not for money, position or praise. Orin Porter Rockwell knew Joseph as well as any man beyond Joseph’s parents and siblings.

I disagree. I think Emma knew him better than anyone else.

Having said that, Porter and Joseph were extremely close, and Joseph had faith that Porter would be there when he needed him.

He was not the type to follow anything just to get along with anybody;

What does that mean?

Porter was outspoken and uncontrollable.

Yes, he was that, which added to his image, which lasts to this day, of his colorful character.

As far as being uncontrollable, you are spot on. And a number of times, this meant committing cold-blooded murder. And when he was sharing shots of whiskey with his traveling partners, their tongues really let loose.

On the other hand, Rockwell was completely devoted to his fellow Mormons, though he never shared their lifestyle. He was instrumental in helping the Mormons move yet again and again, until he helped them all get to Utah.

Nevertheless, he could be a quiet killer, and if you were in his bad graces, you feared his deadly aim, and with good reason.

In fact, you could be guilty of looking like someone he did not like, and you might end up dead. In that sense I would not call Rockwell someone to look up to.

Porter’s witness is set well in history and is a strong indicator that Joseph was honest and the prophet in his day.

How so?

This is not a question about Joseph’s character, but of Porter’s. Many people seem to think Porter never told a lie. What they fail to understand is that while it is somewhat true Porter did not lie, this was because, if needed to fit his preconceived storyline, he would change the circumstances to match his truth.

For example, when asked whether he had committed the attempt on Boggs’ life, Porter’s response was “He’s still alive, isn’t he”?

In other words, yes he had shot Boggs, but because he had not succeeded in killing Boggs, Porter changed the facts to fit his truth. When he said “He‘s still alive. . . ,” Porter was saying he could not possibly have attempted to kill Boggs, because Porter would never have missed. Thus, the truth twists and turns as needed to fit Rockwell’s reputation as an honest man.

If anyone would discredit a fraud in a heartbeat it was Porter.

Nonsense. Porter Rockwell was not telepathic, he had no special talent of discerning a fraud, and his devotion to Joseph, which was very real, actually precludes him from discerning whether Joseph was truthful or not.

I am NOT saying Joseph was not truthful. I am saying Rockwell was not a good arbiter of Joseph's truth.

Rockwell was “outspoken and uncontrollable,“

This was completely true, and he could get Brigham more riled up than anyone else, as Rockwell would not immediately obey Brigham, and many times did not obey him at all.

Yet, when Brigham really needed him, Rockwell was there.

Other interesting facts: Porter Rockwell was a US Marshall, yet he broke the law more times than most men in the territory. Once, after shooting Lieutenant Frank Worrell from a galloping horse with a shot to the abdomen, Rockwell coldly remarked “I aimed for his belt buckle,” and added, “I was afraid my rifle couldn’t reach him, but it did, thank God.”

On the other hand, there are many accounts of his kindness and helpfulness to others. And in his last days, he was devoted to his children and grandchildren.

In short, Rockwell was a man of great complexity, and not easily described. Obviously, to say this small post even comes close to a comprehensive picture of his life would be grossly inaccurate.

But to say Rockwell could discern whether someone was being truthful or not is to attribute talents he did not possess. And especially when talking of Rockwell, he would not have claimed Joseph was guilty of anything.

Again, just to be clear, I am making no comments about whether or not Joseph was being truthful; rather, I am saying Rockwell is not a barometer of that truth. He would have believed anything Joseph said to him. Therefore, we should not look at Rockwell’s support of Joseph as proof of anything.

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

Does it matter if Joseph consumated the marriages or not? Brigham Young and other Prophets and Apostles certainly did and had children. Why not Joseph?

A secondary thought.....I read an exerpt from..I think Rough Stone Rolling...that Joseph's life was threatended by an Angel with a sword if he did not enter into plural marriage. Is this correct?

[mike_uk]

Does it matter if Joseph consumated the marriages or not? Brigham Young and other Prophets and Apostles certainly did and had children. Why not Joseph?

A secondary thought.....I read an exerpt from..I think Rough Stone Rolling...that Joseph's life was threatended by an Angel with a sword if he did not enter into plural marriage. Is this correct?

Yes, it has been stated that an angel appeared to Joseph.

Edited July 22, 2008 by mike_uk

[Hemidakota]

My wife really struggled with Joseph Smith and polygamy for a while. Last year, we had a musical presentation at the Church with the Stake choir dressed in 19th century era clothes and sang some wonderful songs. My wife and I were overwhelmed by the Spirit that was present. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened and hers is now very strong.

Joseph was an amazing man and I look forward to meeting him.I enjoy reading about him and marvel at all he accomplished. I was wondering if anyone else has struggled with him and what happened that increased your testimony of the Prophet.

Even Emma struggled with this to her grave. Joseph receive that revelation a few years prior to finally releasing it. It was due for his love for Emma that he held back.

It took many years for me to gain a insight of this man, until 1995 when I finally received a personal witness of that man. I never looked back since then on anything he stated in his life. He maybe fallible as human being, but my love for that man has never ceased since that time.

I say that the primary principle of the marriage system of The Church is the eternity of the marriage covenant; but owing to the fact that the system also includes the doctrine of a plurality of wives, the importance and grandeur of the doctrine of the eternity of the marriage covenant to a very great extent has been lost sight of in the discussion of and the popular clamor concerning the plurality feature of this new marriage system. The revelation making known this marriage doctrine came about in this way: First it should be stated—and it is evident from the written revelation itself, which bears the date of July 12th, 1843, —that the doctrine was revealed and the practice of it began before the partial revelation now in the Doctrine and Covenants was written. As early as 1831 the rightfulness of a plurality of wives under certain conditions was made known to Joseph Smith. In the latter part of that year, especially from November 1831, and through the early months of 1832, the Prophet with Sidney Rigdon as his assistant was earnestly engaged at Hiram, a village in Portage County, near Kirtland, Ohio, in translating the Jewish scripture. It must have been while engaged in that work that the evident approval of God to the plural marriage system of the ancient patriarchs attracted the Prophet's attention and led him to make those inquiries of the Lord to which the opening paragraphs of the written revelation refer, viz:— B.H. Roberts

Edited July 22, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

A secondary thought.....I read an exerpt from..I think Rough Stone Rolling...that Joseph's life was threatended by an Angel with a sword if he did not enter into plural marriage. Is this correct?

...not correct. There was no sword or his life was threaten. According to the affidavit of Noble, given before James Jack, a notary public, in and for the county of Salt Lake, Utah, in June, 1869,

Joseph Smith declared to Noble that "he had received a revelation from God on the subject, and that an angel of the Lord had commanded him (Joseph Smith) to move for-ward in the said order of marriage; and further, that the said Joseph Smith requested him (Joseph B. Noble) to step forward and assist him in carrying out the said principle." This same man Noble gives the following affidavit with reference to the introduction of the practice of this principle by Joseph Smith, the Prophet:

Edited July 22, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Before I forget this added remark:

We [the Twelve] seemed to put off, as far as we could, what might be termed the evil day.

Some time after these things were made known unto us, I was riding out of Nauvoo on horseback, and met Joseph Smith coming in, he, too, being on horseback. * * * I bowed to Joseph, and having done the same to me, he said: "Stop;" and he looked at me very intently. "Look here," said he, "those things that have been spoken of must be fulfilled, and if they are not entered into right away the keys will be turned."

Well, what did I do? Did I feel to stand in the way of this great, eternal principle, and treat lightly the things of God? No. I replied: "Brother Joseph, I will try and carry these things out."

So indeed he did, for within two years, in Nauvoo, he married Elizabeth Haigham, Jane Ballantyne and Mary A. Oakley.

[mike_uk]

...not correct. There was no sword or his life was threaten. According to the affidavit of Noble, given before James Jack, a notary public, in and for the county of Salt Lake, Utah, in June, 1869,

Sorry Hemi that is not correct. The following are words from Lorenzo Snow and is just one example I can provide.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith there and then explained to me the doctrine of plurality of wives; he said that the Lord had revealed it unto him, and commanded him to have women sealed to him as wives; that he foresaw the trouble that would follow, and sought to turn away from the commandment; that an angel from heaven then appeared before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obey the commandment."

"He further said that my sister, Eliza R. Snow, had been sealed to him as his wife for time and eternity. He told me that the Lord would open the way, and I should have women sealed to me as wives. This conversation was prolonged, I think, one hour or more, in which he told me many important things."

"I solemnly declare before God and holy angels, and as I hope to come forth in the morning of the resurrection, that the above statement is true."

- Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, sworn affidavit.

[Hemidakota]

Looking at a second hand information and now compare it to first hand given by Joseph Smith:

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

[mike_uk]

Looking at a second hand information and now compare it to first hand given by Joseph Smith:

Sorry, Im not convinced. It appears that quote you have given was stated before the visit from the angel.

"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29

This same account was related to other individuals:

"Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."

- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903

"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."

- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts

"His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law." He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet."

"Soon after this he was at my house again, where he occupied my Sister Almira's room and bed, and also asked me for my youngest sister, Esther M. I told him she was promised in marriage to my wife's brother. He said, "Well, let them marry, for it will all come right.""

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary and church patriarch, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review

"19 year-old Zina remained conflicted until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose "his position and his life." Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced." (In Sacred Loneliness, page 80-81)

Why would he relate this story if this is not the case?

[Hemidakota]

Why would he relate this story if this is not the case?

Or did he...this is why I am waiting on the latest Joseph Smith Papers latest releases; first hand accounting.

This reminds me of the earlier General Authorities calling the Hill Cumorah in New York State when in fact Joseph Smith never used the name....sorry, just commit to memory on why we should commit to first hand stories vice secondary if possible.

[bytor2112]

Hey Hemi,

Have you read Rough Stone Rolling? If so, is it a trustworthy source?

[Elphaba]

Or did he...this is why I am waiting on the latest Joseph Smith Papers latest releases; first hand accounting.

Hi Hemi,

Joseph did say an angel threatened him with a sword if he did not start implementing polygamy. You've been given a number of references that demonstrate this.

Like Bytor said, Richard Bushman even acknowledges this in Rough Stone Rolling.

Elphaba

[Dove]

Concerning the polygamy of Joseph Smith, I have found no convincing witness that he ever had any children with any woman other than Emma. I also find no convincing evidence that he ever consummated any of the “sealings” of the polygamous marriages touted by those that desire to discredit Joseph. The effort as I see it - is to imply as fact what some can only speculate.

Actually, Traveler, When I visited Nauvoo a few years ago, I went to the records building, and looked up Joseph Smith. It listed several of his wives, and all of their children. I saw this and am certain he had children with his other wives.

[Snow]

Actually, Traveler, When I visited Nauvoo a few years ago, I went to the records building, and looked up Joseph Smith. It listed several of his wives, and all of their children. I saw this and am certain he had children with his other wives.

Not true.

While I can't comment on what you claim you saw, I can say, without fear of evidential contradiction, there ain't no credible records of no children.

[mike_uk]

Yea we can argue until the cows come home on whether he had children or sex with his wives but none of us were there to know for sure. Yes, I have read accounts from some of his wives that would indicate he had sexual relations with them but it cannot be 100% proved.

[Dove]

Does it matter if Joseph consumated the marriages or not? Brigham Young and other Prophets and Apostles certainly did and had children. Why not Joseph?

I'm with Bytor, what is the big deal if Joseph Smith consummated his marriages with his other wives, or not? Also, what's wrong with him having children with them? Isn't that one of the main purposes of polygamy, to have more children?