Testimony of Joseph Smith

[goofball]

Seems like we should start a new thread with that last post. Getting a bit long and confusing to follow

[rameumptom]

Hi again Ram,

VERY interesting perspective ( to say the least )

Slightly different context, if I may,

Do you ( LDS ) also see your Church as a restoration Church ?

The protestent Christian brethren are a limb ( not a broken limb as you suggest )

Your claim of being a new plant ( true, do you debate that you are ? )

The last comment speaks volumes to me. Your quote " BUT the LDS allow all of them to be saved"

I was under the assumption that Jesus ( NOT LDS, NOT CATHOLIC,NOR ANY OTHER RELIGION) had the ability or power to allow or prevent this eternal saving, further I thought we ALL owe Jesus that enormous thank you and not the LDS.

Anyway, just another example ( as I see it ) of choosing your " home " by deciding what it most appetizing for our own life.

God bless,

Carl

Many would consider the Protestants as broken limb off the Catholic tree. In fact, that was the primary view of the Catholic Church for centuries, which is why they burned heretics, etc.

My last comment came out wrong. You are correct that it is Christ that brings forth the near universal salvation. What I meant to say is "but the LDS believe that Christ will allow all of them to be saved." This is different from many Christian religions that support a limited atonement, or place additional requirements upon a person in order to be saved. For example, many would condemn Mormons, because we believe in the Godhead and not the Trinity. This becomes an extra-Biblical requirement imposed upon us for salvation.

We are a Restorationist Church. We often call it the "Restored Church." Joseph Smith continually spoke of restoring the plain and precious things lost anciently. The Book of Mormon prophesied that there would be things lost from the Bible, and these would need to be restored in the last days.

We believe that in previous dispensations, angels were sent to restore God's authority and truth. Even Jesus had angels come to him (Moses and Elijah, for instance). Since things from the primitive church were lost, they had to be restored. The ancient pattern goes like this:

1. If a truth or teaching of God is missing from the Earth, God will send an angel to restore it.

2. If the truth is currently on the Earth, God will use a prophet to ensure of its proper use and role.

3. At the end of that prophet's era, the authority is either passed onto the next, or it is lost from humanity until restored through angels again (see #1).

Example:

Moses was given authority from God and angelic visitors. Moses passed his authority on to Joshua and the priests of Aaron. It continued down until much of the truth was lost. Jesus and the apostles were given authority of God, through angels (Holy Ghost came down as a dove, and as above).

[HiJolly]

So, Hi, are you a friend?

Elphie

(sigh) I knew someone would ask. I am, but apparently not THAT kind of friend. He said he'd "let me know how it goes".

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

Miss Halfway wrote:

I think Ram was being a little sarcastic with his last statement. The whole "LDS allow" thing was not our position. Hope you can see thru the fray on that one. I prefer to poke Ram and then roll my eyes and then, of course, offer him a biscuit!!

Me? Sarcastic? Wow, am I that transparent? Well, can I at least have my biscuit with some honey and butter?

[Misshalfway]

Me? Sarcastic? Wow, am I that transparent? Well, can I at least have my biscuit with some honey and butter?

Absolutely!! Perhaps we should all have some biscuits with the Catholic BBQ and the LDS casserole as we learn about each others faith. Maybe it will calm any right fighting.

[Hemidakota]

Better than having those dried up biscuits, perhaps a dish of 'fish and Rock Eel' with malt V? LOL

[prisonchaplain]

Elder James E. Talmage, Conference Report, Apr. 1930. "During this hundred years [of Church history] many other great truths not known before, have been declared to the people, and one of the greatest is that to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. Hell is no place to which a vindictive judge sends prisoners to suffer and to be punished prinicipally for his glory; but it is a place prepared for the teaching, the disciplining of those who failed to learn here upon the earth what they should have learned. True, we read of everlasting punishment, unending suffering, eternal damnation. That is a direful expression; but in the mercy the Lord has made plain what those words mean. 'Eternal punishment,' he says, is God's punishment, for he is eternal; and that condition or state or possibility will ever exist for the sinner who deserves and really needs such condemnation; but this does not mean that the individual sufferer or sinner is to be eternally and everlastingly made to endure and suffer. No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better. When he reaches that stage the prison doors will open and there will be rejoicing among the hosts who welcome him into a better state. The Lord has not abated in the least what he has said in earlier dispensations concerning the operation of his law and his gospel, but he has made clear unto us his goodness and mercy through it all, for it is his glory and his work to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man."

We have a loving Father in Heaven, full of mercy and from this quote I also think, that those WE think should only have the glory of the Telestial or Terrestial may not be the case. They will be taught in the spirit world and given a chance to learn and progress. Only our Eternal Father knows.

PC -- I do enjoy your posts -- it's refreshing having a non-member post without becoming contentious.:)

Many Christians, Catholic, Protestant, and non-denominational, would like the above to be true. Your doctrine of hell is attractive, and may well be one motivation for those who join your church from out of the others. Minus your prophets though added revelations though, I just can't find the hope of escape from hell in my Bible. Is God's eternal justice an apostate doctrine or a holy truth we must grapple with?

[Hemidakota]

I am hoping here we are not confusing the term ETERNAL HELL with the term Spirit Prison where spirits are taught. There is no exit backdoor with ETERNAL HELL.

[Hemidakota]

Many Christians, Catholic, Protestant, and non-denominational, would like the above to be true. Your doctrine of hell is attractive, and may well be one motivation for those who join your church from out of the others. Minus your prophets though added revelations though, I just can't find the hope of escape from hell in my Bible. Is God's eternal justice an apostate doctrine or a holy truth we must grapple with?

Nice font and easily read for us who are blind.

[prisonchaplain]

Nice font and easily read for us who are blind.

I was competing with the citation.

[Islander]

Many Christians, Catholic, Protestant, and non-denominational, would like the above to be true. Your doctrine of hell is attractive, and may well be one motivation for those who join your church from out of the others. Minus your prophets though added revelations though, I just can't find the hope of escape from hell in my Bible. Is God's eternal justice an apostate doctrine or a holy truth we must grapple with?

An interesting issue here is that the word "hell" in hebrew and greek are several different words and they were translated at different times by different people also in diverse ways.

So, it is either a specif place currently lacking a ZIP code and other identifying/location data, or a generic term used to identify a series of locations with a common denominator: a place of obscurity and punishment , darkness, cold (no light, no homely warmth), distance/separation from God, loneliness and fear. Now whether hot or freezer-burn cold, there are other words also translated "hell" in the NT. I think it matters very little what part of town you are going and the particulars if the WHOLE town is called and fells like HELL.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hey Carl.

I think Ram was being a little sarcastic with his last statement. The whole "LDS allow" thing was not our position. Hope you can see thru the fray on that one. I prefer to poke Ram and then roll my eyes and then, of course, offer him a biscuit!! :)

You bet we think our church is a restoration church. It is part of our very foundation. And it something that I would imagine would put us at odds with Catholic theology. We believe that the authority to act in Gods name was lost shortly after the resurrection of the Lord and needed to be brought back to the earth. So, no we would not disagree if, in fact, the Catholic Church said something like this "new plant" idea.

I must say that I am confused by your posts. Perhaps it is that you are answering questions with questions, which is fine but perhaps my brain is a little slower. :) It appears you love your faith and perhaps are feeling defensive. I sure hope not! :) I, for one, just had never heard what PC said and it shocked me. And listening to your responses, I feel more confused about certain things.

It sounds like you are saying that the Catholic church believes that there is one heaven and that thru the blood of Christ and his grace than mankind can be saved into that kingdom when life is over. I am also seems that certain lines are drawn concerning such opportunities. My question is does the Catholic church feel that the Protestants have a chance.....because of their "blood lines" so to speak and that other any other group outside of that circle will not be saved. Am I understanding the Catholic position or not? BTW, I have no desire to dispute it. Only to understand. In fact, I would assume that such would be true....only I was under the impression that protestants were heretical groups and so I am interested in this apparent change in the RCC's position.

I also have questions about Hell and pergatory and judgement. I suppose I hold a similar question to LindsayJane. Only your answer wasn't really an answer.

Anyway, I would love to understand more. From you, cuz you are funny....and any other Catholics rather than mormon or protestant versions of what you believe.

Hellllllllllloooooooo Misshalfway,

In regard to the Ram " LDS allow " thing, I get it :)

Yes indeed the " restoration " does put us ( Catholics ) and ( LDS ) at odds ( but that does not mean ( Ceeboo ) doesn't think very highly of ( Misshalfway ) :)

You offer that the LDS believes that the Church fell shortly after the ressurection ( What was happening for the approx 1800 years before JS saved the world ??)

No, I sincerly do not feel defensive, ( that would be highly unfair on my part be here and question as I have and feel defensive when I recieve a couple questions myself ). As you point out, I do love my faith and sincerly believe ( like many of you do ) that the Catholic church is what it claims to be.:)

Which ones shocked you. Was it that I believe ALL OF US have a chance for eternal salvation. That I believe in ONE heaven for ALL OF US.

I will offer you MY Catholic perspective concerning your above question to me. Protestents, Jews, LDS, Jehova witness, Muslims, Catholics and any other of God's created people indeed have a chance at this salvation. For me ( or any Catholic ) to judge any living person and to then determine their eternal fate would be the height of arrogance and further would be speaking with a power that does not belong to any of us. On the contrary, If I am a broken human ( I KNOW I AM AND SO ARE THE REST OF US ) The only " chance" I have or ( in my opinion ) any of you have,is by the loving gift of grace by the one who paid the complete and final price for us all, out of pure love (Jesus).

I am very aware of scripture as well as people that I am confident will qoute scripture to argue this ( to put it mildly ). " gates are narrow " " the only way " and so on But I would

offer that if we go down that road then IMHO we are all in deep doo doo.

Lastly, I would suggest that YES I believe the Catholic church is the best and most true place ( EVEN WITH ALL OF THE HUMAN ISSUES OVER THE LAST 2000 YEARS) to call home and thus offers all of us the resources that Jesus left for us to help us through our lives of sin. It is NOT THE ONLY WAY to wind up in Gods kingdom for all etenity. That decision is completly up to our creator.

eeehhhhfff, I am exhausted :)

God bless,

Carl

Edited August 1, 2008 by ceeboo
typo

[Palerider]

Absolutely!! Perhaps we should all have some biscuits with the Catholic BBQ and the LDS casserole as we learn about each others faith. Maybe it will calm any right fighting.

I want to bring the BBQ and let the others bring the Casseroles....the Mormons will bring green jello.....:)

[WANDERER]

I'm not LDS. But I have to admit Elphie's passion about LDS history is very contagious. I think it's a wonderful story that deserves to be told. As for historical accuracy...we can try...it is worthwhile to do so...but some things will always remain a matter of confusion.

It's been an interesting discussion, mostly because of a wide representation of different opinions.

It's also an upsetting one.

There is no doubt that the topic has been appropriated to some degree with those that have an agenda for cultural marginisation...by selectively representing details to represent a culture and religion and to try to exclude from access to and participation in the culture of Christianity as a whole. This is wrong.

I know that we have a digital national library that files digital resources of note for cultural posterity (though they primarily focus on recording websites so that our cultural literacy contributions on the internet are not lost..message boards and chat are not part of that recording which is what you would expect in terms of respecting boundaries). However, some thread discussions do definitely fit into that category though. How interesting would future LDS generations find the whole digital effect and conversations on faith and a record of what past saints went through and how others outside of the faith responded to it? Admittedly, I'm probably a bit passionate about history LOL.

[rameumptom]

Prison Chaplain,

We do believe in a hell that lasts forever. We call it Outer Darkness, to distinguish from the temporary hell most sinners will experience in Spirit Prison.

Our view is that all will be saved through Christ, except for sons of perdition - those who deny the Holy Ghost. This entails first having a very powerful witness of Christ, and then turning totally against it to the shedding of innocent blood and love of pure evil.

In D&C 76, which I highly recommend you study and consider as the key document in our understanding of the kingdoms, we see how the Lord will judge and bless/punish each group.

The Telestial will be made up of liars, murderers, adulterers, and others who did not sufficiently repent of their sins. They will resurrect at the end of the Millennium, after they have fully paid for those sins. D&C 19 tells us that they will suffer even as Christ suffered. Once they have paid for their sins, then God will give them the amount of heaven they are willing and able to receive. They will not feel comfortable in His presence, and so will desire a lesser kingdom of glory (Mormon 9:3-4). Still, it is described as a glorious place, compared to this earth.

The Terrestrial kingdom is where the "honorable men of the earth" will go. These were good and faithful to Christ in mortality, but were not valiant in all things. They will go to Paradise in the Spirit World, to await the Resurrection, and will be taught the higher things of God if they are willing to accept them. In the TK, they will enjoy dwelling in the presence of Christ, and will be everything that the average Christian has imagined heaven should be, plus some.

The Celestial Kingdom will be reserved for those who are valiant in their testimonies of Christ. They will not only have demonstrated faith in Christ, but will have overcome the sins and temptations of this world. They will have learned to give their will and desires to God entirely. This will include many who may not have received a fullness of the gospel in this life, but receive it gladly in the Spirit World. These are the ones that Christ makes "kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Revelations 1:5-6), will sit on God's throne and judge the nations with him. These shall receive a fullness of God's glory and blessings.

So, we do believe in a forever hell for the most vile, a temporary hell for the average sinner, and hope of great blessings and glory for most of God's children.

[mike_uk]

Also, to clarify Joseph Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three "heavens or degrees". those individuals who are sealed in celestial marriage to a spouse in a temple while alive (or after death by proxy) will be permitted to enter into the highest degree of celestial kingdom. These individuals will eventually become "exalted" and will be permitted to live "the kind of life God lives"

[rameumptom]

Many traditional Christians are now coming to the understanding that the ancient Jews and Christians DID believe in multiple heavens. There are many ancient books that discuss it, most of which were not available in Joseph's day.

Once again, it shows that Joseph didn't just make something up, but actually restored an ancient, but lost, teaching.

[Elphaba]

I'm not LDS. But I have to admit Elphie's passion about LDS history is very contagious. I think it's a wonderful story that deserves to be told. As for historical accuracy...we can try...it is worthwhile to do so...but some things will always remain a matter of confusion.

Thank you Wanderer!

I am so happy to hear someone say the story deserves to be told. It IS a wonderful story, and IMO, it is faith-promoting as is. These earliest Saints were doing the best they could, and whatever the form of polygamy, including polyandry, their ultimate acceptance of polygamy was an indication of their commitment to their God. It is not a story that necessarily puts Joseph in a bad light, if people comprehend the entire situation.

Richard Bushman in Rough Stone Rolling did an excellent job of explaining why Joseph felt compelled to initiate polygamy. It is not whitewashed history, which I think many people are starting to recognize and dismiss, though certainly not all.

But the fact that the Church survived, and then thrived, is due to Joseph and his "elites." I think the true versions of the stories are fascinating, and not harmful when understood in context.

There is no doubt that the topic has been appropriated to some degree with those that have an agenda for cultural marginisation...by selectively representing details to represent a culture and religion and to try to exclude from access to and participation in the culture of Christianity as a whole. This is wrong.

You are so clever the way you explain your beliefs and concerns. You nailed this one. In my posts on this thread, I kept/keep explaining what really happened, yet the "culture marginilizantion has become such I cannot explain the truth anymore. Some people are not interested in the historical truths of the Church, which, IMO are far more profound and faith-promoting, than the whitewashed versions so often told in Church venues. I'm so happy YOU got it, and wish more people would as well.

I know that we have a digital national library that files digital resources of note for cultural posterity (though they primarily focus on recording websites >snip>Admittedly, I'm probably a bit passionate about history LOL.Isn't it fascinating? I love it!

Elphie

[Islander]

Hellllllllllloooooooo Misshalfway,

I am very aware of scripture as well as people that I am confident will qoute scripture to argue this ( to put it mildly ). " gates are narrow " " the only way " and so on But I would

offer that if we go down that road then IMHO we are all in deep doo doo.

Lastly, I would suggest that YES I believe the Catholic church is the best and most true place ( EVEN WITH ALL OF THE HUMAN ISSUES OVER THE LAST 2000 YEARS) to call home and thus offers all of us the resources that Jesus left for us to help us through our lives of sin. It is NOT THE ONLY WAY to wind up in Gods kingdom for all etenity. That decision is completly up to our creator.

eeehhhhfff, I am exhausted :)

God bless,

Carl

I can certainly understand your devotion and belief in the RCC. I would not question that. Since I had no religious traditions but rather a very generic view of the bible, God and the role of the Savior, I had no particular bias or belief about "church". I more or less saw it as a man made organization with no particular authority but rather like a club or membership group of like-minded people.

My own study of history, from a secular standpoint, led me to believe that the RCC had some serious problems since it emergence in the 3rd century thru the Refirmation. Again, this is ONLY based on my own research and academic endeveours. I always saw the claim to the apostolic seat of Peter as dubious as best and unfounded most likely. I do not want to get into a dissertation here about when for how long and in what capacity Peter visited and labored at Rome. But it seemed to me, even without any religious training that while John, an apostle and one of the original 12 and a living witness of the Christ was alive, there could be no higher authority than his on the earth.

Beyond that and now that I have a greater understanding and insight into the things of God, I have a tendency to consider quite carefully and seriously the words of the Savior. If he says:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work ciniquity." Mat 7:22-23.

I believe that to be absolutely true. Just because some claim and have built an empire in His name that does not implies they have His authority to do so. Good intentions are not enough in the kingdom of God.

In summary, if the Savior says that "narrow is the gate and straight is the way and few there be that findeth it" I do believe that it will be so. Regardless of our kind hearts and good will towards men, salvation thru His grace by faith in His name as demonstrated by our good works for the building up of His kingdom and obedience to His commandments is the ONLY way. He being the judge, will decide in the last day but He has already spoken of who and how we are to seek eternal life and salvation. Those who procrastinate and neglect finding time for repentance will forsake thus willfully theirs.

Just my thoughts.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Islander

[bytor2112]

We believe that Salvation must come to all mankind exactly the same way. From Adam to our time present. Every person who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, to enter in the strait gate, whether in this fallen sphere in which we now live or in the Spirit world after they pass from mortality. Each will have to accept Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. This is why we perform sacred ordinances like baptism in Holy Temples around the world. The Savior himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Confusion and contradiction still prevails in Christendom over how mankind is to be saved because of Christ's Atonement. One of the many reasons for the restored Gospel.

To be a Christian.... to be a follower of Christ.... to be saved..... to recieve salvation because of the grace of Jesus Christ, because he drank of the Fathers bitter cup and bore our sins, our griefs, sorrows and afflictions.... we must strive to live his example."if you love me, keep my commandments." If we love him, if we are his.... we strive to keep his commandments. Is this salvation by works? Or is this being a true and faithful servant of the Savior of mankind?

We all must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Same ordinances. One faith, one baptism. God is perfect and as such it could be in no other way.

[prisonchaplain]

Prison Chaplain,

We do believe in a hell that lasts forever. We call it Outer Darkness, to distinguish from the temporary hell most sinners will experience in Spirit Prison.

Our view is that all will be saved through Christ, except for sons of perdition - those who deny the Holy Ghost. This entails first having a very powerful witness of Christ, and then turning totally against it to the shedding of innocent blood and love of pure evil.

In D&C 76, which I highly recommend you study and consider as the key document in our understanding of the kingdoms, we see how the Lord will judge and bless/punish each group.

I'll take you up on this suggestion. :)

The Telestial will be made up of liars, murderers, adulterers, and others who did not sufficiently repent of their sins. They will resurrect at the end of the Millennium, after they have fully paid for those sins. D&C 19 tells us that they will suffer even as Christ suffered. Once they have paid for their sins, then God will give them the amount of heaven they are willing and able to receive. They will not feel comfortable in His presence, and so will desire a lesser kingdom of glory (Mormon 9:3-4). Still, it is described as a glorious place, compared to this earth.

Sounds like a bit of purgatory combined with the Jehovah's Witness belief in Paradise Earth for most believers.

The Terrestrial kingdom is where the "honorable men of the earth" will go. These were good and faithful to Christ in mortality, but were not valiant in all things. They will go to Paradise in the Spirit World, to await the Resurrection, and will be taught the higher things of God if they are willing to accept them. In the TK, they will enjoy dwelling in the presence of Christ, and will be everything that the average Christian has imagined heaven should be, plus some.

It's ironic that Jews believe that faithful Christians, and those of other honorable faiths will likely have this kind of reward. For example, one told me that I had liked fulfilled all the Laws of Noah, save one (the command against polytheism - they view the Trinity has virtual polytheism).

The Celestial Kingdom will be reserved for those who are valiant in their testimonies of Christ. They will not only have demonstrated faith in Christ, but will have overcome the sins and temptations of this world. They will have learned to give their will and desires to God entirely. This will include many who may not have received a fullness of the gospel in this life, but receive it gladly in the Spirit World. These are the ones that Christ makes "kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Revelations 1:5-6), will sit on God's throne and judge the nations with him. These shall receive a fullness of God's glory and blessings.

IMHO, even if the LDS gospel is absolutely true, there are many who will not end up in this kingdom. Despite having the restored teachings, there is "restored living." On the other hand, you seem to hold out hope that many who did not accept the fullness in this dispensation, yet who hungered for it, as evidenced by lives well lived, are likely to make their way to the Celestial Kingdom. I'm not convinced, but can't deny it's apparent reasonableness.

[Islander]

PC

Even the enlightened can be stubborn and thus misguided inspite of good intentions. Jonah comes to mind. He heard the Lord but struggle to understand His reasoning for trying to save those people in Niniveth that he perceived as wicked and enemies of Israel. He was angry with the Lord for His kindness with the enemy. Jonah failed to understand the Lord's love and kindness for ALL his children.

Thus we hope and hold fast that even those who may have rejected the truth because they failed to understand the Gospel will be save in the kingdom of our God. After all those honest in heart that believe in the Savior as the means for salvation will obtain it. Just because you jave a wayward son you do not cast him out if he returns in repentance, no matter how long it takes.

[prisonchaplain]

DC 76 is very interesting indeed. Hell is for the active and knowing enemies of the Godhead (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit). Celestial glory is for those who believe, receive, obey, endure, and joyfully please God. Terrestial is for those who mean well, do well, but resist the highest obedience, the highest truth, the ultimate sacrifice. Telestial is for those who do not do well, but who at least avoid opposing God and his people. Perhaps I've over-simplified, but did I catch the essence of it?

[rameumptom]

DC 76 is very interesting indeed. Hell is for the active and knowing enemies of the Godhead (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit). Celestial glory is for those who believe, receive, obey, endure, and joyfully please God. Terrestial is for those who mean well, do well, but resist the highest obedience, the highest truth, the ultimate sacrifice. Telestial is for those who do not do well, but who at least avoid opposing God and his people. Perhaps I've over-simplified, but did I catch the essence of it?

I think you've hit it very close in your own words. In it, I see just how loving God and Jesus are to us. If John 3:16 is true, and I believe it is, then God will try to maximize our deliverance and salvation. This is just the opposite view of Calvin's TULIP, where God will save whom he pleases, and damn whom he pleases, even if they have sincerely attempted to follow Him.