Word Of Wisdom

[Spencer]

Youre right, and just because a book won a lot of awards doesnt mean it was good or accurate.

heck Fargo won a bunch of awards, but thats 2.5 hours of my life i wish i had back! worst movie ever.

My point is the book was not approved by the church, seems to me the best place to find out about church doctrine is from the Church, or maybe im just crazy.

Spencer

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 07:54 AM

First he is human, hes allowed to error.

Second this book does not bare the stamp "The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

It may not be an anti book, but that does not make it a reliable source. I find it a little hard to believe he just made up this rule for his wife. I mean come on! It is plainly obvious that alcohol alters your mind in a negative way, so obviously it would be advised not to consume it! I dont understand why that is such a tough concept to get.

(Not speaking to you Shan just people in general who may not agree with this)

Spencer

I'm not much of a drinker, even these days. Once in a while I may have a drink or two. This past weekend I had a daquiri after the young'un went to bed. I was out like a light at 9:30! What a partier!

While I'm not sure where it came from, this part of the WoW (alcohol) is something I don't really have a problem with. Actually, I'll agree with the drugs and tobacco parts too. I think people would be better off without them. Many lives are destroyed by either drunk driving or alcholism.

But I was specifically referring to tea and coffee... especially tea, as there have been many studies that show the many health benefits of it. That's the concept I will never understand! The way it stands, someone who is morbidly obese and weighs 500 pounds can go to the temple, but someone at a healthy weight cannot go because they enjoyed a cup of tea?! Which person is healthier?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 08:58 AM

Youre right, and just because a book won a lot of words doesnt mean it was good or accurate.

heck Fargo won a bunch of awards, but thats 2.5 hours of my life i wish i had back! worst movie ever.

My point is the book was not approved by the church, seems to me the best place to find out about church doctrine is from the Church, or maybe im just crazy.

Spencer

Like I said, just because the LDS church does not approve of a book, does not mean it is not reliable or credible. Spencer, do you determine something is worth reading by asking your church for permission and approval to read it? Let's hope not. You're a big boy now Spencer, you should be able to think without having to get your church's okie-dokie.

M.

[Spencer]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Aug 9 2004, 12:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Aug 9 2004, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 07:54 AM

First he is human, hes allowed to error.

Second this book does not bare the stamp "The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

It may not be an anti book, but that does not make it a reliable source. I find it a little hard to believe he just made up this rule for his wife. I mean come on! It is plainly obvious that alcohol alters your mind in a negative way, so obviously it would be advised not to consume it! I dont understand why that is such a tough concept to get.

(Not speaking to you Shan just people in general who may not agree with this)

Spencer

I'm not much of a drinker, even these days. Once in a while I may have a drink or two. This past weekend I had a daquiri after the young'un went to bed. I was out like a light at 9:30! What a partier!

While I'm not sure where it came from, this part of the WoW (alcohol) is something I don't really have a problem with. Actually, I'll agree with the drugs and tobacco parts too. I think people would be better off without them. Many lives are destroyed by either drunk driving or alcholism.

But I was specifically referring to tea and coffee... especially tea, as there have been many studies that show the many health benefits of it. That's the concept I will never understand! The way it stands, someone who is morbidly obese and weighs 500 pounds can go to the temple, but someone at a healthy weight cannot go because they enjoyed a cup of tea?! Which person is healthier?

Shan with all due respect this is just ridiculous. Comparing Tea to Obesity, I mean come on now everyones body handels food differently depending on there metabolism and such. Some cases are classified as a disease.

So maybe this is not every case, maybe some people just really eat un-healthy, but then that wouldnt be following the WoW would it? in which they are not being compeletly honest in there temple recomend interview.

Spencer

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 9 2004, 12:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 9 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 08:58 AM

Youre right, and just because a book won a lot of words doesnt mean it was good or accurate.

heck Fargo won a bunch of awards, but thats 2.5 hours of my life i wish i had back! worst movie ever.

My point is the book was not approved by the church, seems to me the best place to find out about church doctrine is from the Church, or maybe im just crazy.

Spencer

Like I said, just because the LDS church does not approve of a book, does not mean it is not reliable or credible. Spencer, do you determine something is worth reading by asking your church for permission and approval to read it? Let's hope not. You're a big boy now Spencer, you should be able to think without having to get your church's okie-dokie.

M.

And like I said, I just dont think the best place to find out about our beliefs is froma 3rd party. Care to dance? Do-C-Do!

Thanks for the insults <3

[Jason]

You are a cunning illusionist.

Luckily we have the Old Testament as well so that we do not mis-interpet this as you apparently have.

Actually, Bat's probably right. Though it's interpreted differently now.

Isaiah 5 11-12

11 ¶ Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till awine inflame them!

12 And the harp, and the aviol•, the btabret•, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they cregard not the dwork• of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

This isn't speaking against drinking. It's speaking against drunkeness. There's a difference.

Isaiah 28 7-8

7 ¶ But athey• also have berred• through cwine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the dprophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8 For all tables are full of vomit and afilthiness, so that there is no place clean.

This is an allegory. Drunkeness = unrighteousness.

Just a few scriptures that speak against consuming alcohol

Or at least against being a drunkard.

[Spencer]

But is it just not eaiser to leave it alone than to even tempt the addicition? Is this really that hard to see?

A woman has a glass of wine each night before she goes to bed. 10 years later her husband is getting sick of it, because its moved to 2 or 3, and changing her mood, yet she wont (or cant) quit? Now is this an addiction that crept up on her? or a simple meaningless life little pleasure.

Spencer

[Jason]

Not everyone becomes an addict. And 2 or three glasses of wine isn't enough to get drunk on.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 11:32 AM

Shan with all due respect this is just ridiculous. Comparing Tea to Obesity, I mean come on now everyones body handels food differently depending on there metabolism and such. Some cases are classified as a disease.

So maybe this is not every case, maybe some people just really eat un-healthy, but then that wouldnt be following the WoW would it? in which they are not being compeletly honest in there temple recomend interview.

Spencer

My whole point is that according to the WoW, you can be very unhealthy from other choices you've made, such as not exercising or eating huge amounts (or unhealthy things that have nothing to do with being overweight), OR act like a total jack*** to others and still go to the temple.

But you can run 5 miles a day, only eat healthy foods, be good to your neighbors & family, helping in any way you can, and you can't go in.

THAT seems ridiculous to me!

[Faerie]

My whole point is that according to the WoW, you can be very unhealthy from other choices you've made, such as not exercising or eating huge amounts (or unhealthy things that have nothing to do with being overweight), OR act like a total jack*** to others and still go to the temple.

actually..if you're honest, you can't....

and WOO HOO I'm renewing my recommend tomorrow night!! FINALLY!!

[Spencer]

For some it only takes 1 glass to put you out of your normal state of mind, ive witnessed it. And youre right not all become addicted.

I think the better question is, why is it so important to even argue over? Does one need/want it that bad? Or does one just not like having rules?

Before I was a member, I really enjoyed beer killians red was my choice. I REALLY loved tea, id have 1-2 cups a day if not more, English tea w/ a lil milk and sugar! mmmm! and every now and then i think man would be nice to have a cup right now. But that passes.

For me it came down to my testimony. I KNOW this church is true. And like ray said, having that faith makes it eaiser to put that faith in other things such as the WoW. So I adjusted my life wasnt hard all in all. And hey what do I lose if when that day comes the Lord says to me, "You know Spencer it really wasnt necessary for you to give those things up." Do you think I would be punished for it? Not likely. Probably Neutral which works for me.

So Ill take my knowledge in what I KNOW and error on the side of caution, put faith in what I believe and Ill see where I end up. Who knows maybe we'll all be up there sippin on a o'douls. If so, first round is on me.

Cheers!

Spencer

[Jason]

Sure Spence! (But I'll take an Miller.)

[Faerie]

o'douls...*shudder*

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 10:16 AM

I think the better question is, why is it so important to even argue over? Does one need/want it that bad? Or does one just not like having rules?

I think the point is that everyone has the choice. If someone chooses to abstaint from alcohol for whatever reason or if someone chooses to drink alcohol responsibly for whatever reason, that choice exists for them. Life is made up of choices. You choose to obey your WofW because your church asks you to. Is it really for health reasons or for an obedience test? The LDS church in the present doesn't really give their members a choice (free agency) regarding the WofW, it's more of an ultimatum. If you don't follow you can't go to the temple. Why not just keep the WofW as a recommend instead of an ultimatum, then it's a true choice for members to make and no one is judged unfairly.

M.

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Maureen+Aug 9 2004, 01:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Aug 9 2004, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Aug 9 2004, 10:16 AM

I think the better question is, why is it so important to even argue over? Does one need/want it that bad? Or does one just not like having rules?

I think the point is that everyone has the choice. If someone chooses to abstaint from alcohol for whatever reason or if someone chooses to drink alcohol responsibly for whatever reason, that choice exists for them. Life is made up of choices. You choose to obey your WofW because your church asks you to. Is it really for health reasons or for an obedience test? The LDS church in the present doesn't really give their members a choice (free agency) regarding the WofW, it's more of an ultimatum. If you don't follow you can't go to the temple. Why not just keep the WofW as a recommend instead of an ultimatum, then it's a true choice for members to make and no one is judged unfairly.

M.

Reguardless if the church asks me to or not or says if you dont do this you cant do this etc. Its still my choice, I made it, I agree with i, one of the eaisest choices ive ever made.

Spencer

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Spencer+Aug 9 2004, 09:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spencer @ Aug 9 2004, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Maureen@Aug 9 2004, 12:11 PM

Like I said, just because the LDS church does not approve of a book, does not mean it is not reliable or credible. Spencer, do you determine something is worth reading by asking your church for permission and approval to read it? Let's hope not. You're a big boy now Spencer, you should be able to think without having to get your church's okie-dokie.

M.

And like I said, I just dont think the best place to find out about our beliefs is froma 3rd party. Care to dance? Do-C-Do!

Thanks for the insults <3

And by the way, what insults?

M.

[Faerie]

you see it as an ultimatum, but it's still a choice...you choose to follow the commandments and go to the temple, or you don't...

and it's not like the WoW is the only requirement to get a recommend!!!! in the end, no one is forcing you to abstain or partake, you are the only one who can make that choice and live with the rewards or consequences thereof..

for me, it's an obedience issue...:)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen@ Aug 9 2004, 10:44 AM

The LDS church in the present doesn't really give their members a choice (free agency) regarding the WofW, it's more of an ultimatum. If you don't follow you can't go to the temple. Why not just keep the WofW as a recommend instead of an ultimatum, then it's a true choice for members to make and no one is judged unfairly.

Because the Church should consist of persons who uphold the law and counsel of Jesus Christ, whose Church it is. If people want to do something contrary to the will of our Lord, that is their choice and they can go somewhere else to do their own will, but they should not expect to receive blessings for going contrary to the will of our Lord or to continue their association with honorable members of the Church.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 9 2004, 11:10 AM

Because the Church should consist of persons who uphold the law and counsel of Jesus Christ, whose Church it is. If people want to do something contrary to the will of our Lord, that is their choice and they can go somewhere else to do their own will, but they should not expect to receive blessings for going contrary to the will of our Lord or to continue their association with honorable members of the Church.

Are you sure it's the will of our Lord and not just the will of your church?

M.

[Ray]

Yes, I received God's assurance, and now I know that it is.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Aug 9 2004, 10:01 AM

Not everyone becomes an addict.  And 2 or three glasses of wine isn't enough to get drunk on.

You obviously never met my ex!!! Two or three glasses or wine....and the man was an idiot...you wouldn't want to be around him.... he had a very low alcohol tolerance. And depending on the alcohol content....he could only handle 1 to 1 1/2 beers. Sad really when I think back on it...wait a min..chuckle chuckle, ha ha ha ha ha....ROFL.....ohhhhh memories.....Me?....I had a very high tolerance.

[toto]

You'll be surprised to find out how many people are going through the same thing as you. The youth of the church especially. Everyday at school we are faced with peer-pressure and temptations. The best thing to do is not to question why you can't but to question why you do and what you do it for.

I believe that the WOW is a big piece of the Mormon belief. Ever since I was converted the WOW has been a sort of reminder or a type of example. Do you get what I'm saying?

Anyway, it might be real hard sometimes but you will be surprised how strong you can be to resist. I feel proud of myself every time.

Just try to think of what it stands for and the reason for it.

I feel more respected as a person because of it.

Good Luck.