Forgiveness

[Over43]

I grew up in a household where my parents were very heavy handed. (If you get my drift...)

I was once whipped across my back with an iron cord for putting dirty forks in the dish washer which held clean dishes. Let me tell you, that took my breath away.

Over the years I have pushed "this stuff" to the back of my mind, and decided it was done and over with. My parents have been very helpful over the years with a variety of things, supportive, etc.

However, this last week an event happened that brought it all back, and made me realize how forgiveness can be placed on shaky ground.

To make a long story short, while I had left a family get together to get a Coke (not caffeine free either), my parent threw a shoe at a nephew, hit him in the ribs, briused him and knocked the wind out of him.

It's been 48 hours and I'm still trying to process this. Maybe I haven't forgiven as much as I need to?

O43

[Mykdiver]

Forgivness is a very hard thing. Best of luck to you with that.

[john doe]

Forgiving does not mean forgetting that the source of the offense is still there and can hurt you or others again. Did you take appropriate steps to ensure that this never happens again? If my parent did that to my child, I would make sure the parent did not have contact with my child for a very long time, if at all. If that means going so far as to involve the police, then that is what it takes.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

This may not be the most "mormon" answer, but in my book forgiveness takes a back seat to protecting my loved ones. Having grown up with abuse myself, (If I had kids) were I to see an incident such as you describe between my father and my child, I would raise my voice and tell my father in no uncertain terms that his behavior was NOT appropriate and I would pack up my family and leave immediately. Once my family is safe, then I'd start working on forgiveness. :edit: If this happened at my house, I would inform my father that he had overstayed his welcome and ask him to leave. And I probably wouldn't be diplomatic about it; I wouldn't resort to violence myself but I wouldn't be quiet about it either.

Thankfully, however, my family situation has changed a lot, especially my father. Since my mom died when I was 19, I've watched my dad learn love and patience in ways that I would have thought impossible before. For this, I can say I am grateful to my mom for the gift of her passing, and I can say I'm probably lucky that I've had the opportunity to patch things up with my family. It's certainly made my job trying to forgive him easier.

Edited August 4, 2008 by puf_the_majic_dragon

[prisonchaplain]

Forgiveness does not equal trust. It is even possible that the one you forgive will never regain your trust.

[WANDERER]

Unsafe people are unsafe people. Removing yourself (and dependents) from situations that involve such risks is necessary. It protects the possible targets...but also the people with the abuse problem from self-harm...which inevitably it is. It is a difficult circumstance to be in...we all want healthy happy families, but sometimes there is very little you can do and there is no personal failure in not being able to fix all of the problems of the world. Those addicted to unhealthy relationship patterns with others face all the problems of addiction. I have come to the conclusion that zero tolerance is the best policy...while you may be able to maintain distant relationships via the phone or other mediums..this only minimises the *physical* aspects of abuse which are very tied into emotional abuse. Sometimes the biggest challenge of forgiveness is to forgive yourself. There is so much sadness tied into loving someone that cannot receive that because they cannot moderate or control their own behaviour. Sometimes you just have to accept that the best decision for all involved involves walking away from those situations and interactions. It doesn't mean that forgiveness and love are not involved and that you stop caring...but to do something that is repeatedly *bad* in order to be a good person is not going to achieve that. I am sorry for the pain for all involved.

[rameumptom]

Forgiveness, especially of someone who has abused or done something very terrible, is like being a recovering addict/alcoholic. It must be done every day, one day at a time. Why? Because the problem still lurks in the background, and can bring back all the memories, emotions, and issues that were there previously.

Now that you are an adult, it may be good to have a discussion with your parents. And if you feel you can't say it face to face to them, write them a letter. Share with them your personal feelings of when you were a child. Let them know you've forgiven them, and that you appreciated the good things they've done for you over the years. Then explain to them that you are concerned by this violent nature that occasionally rears its ugly head. Ask them to consider their actions, and perhaps get into an anger management class, so that they don't suddenly find themselves in jail for accidentally harming someone through such actions.

I am a counselor in a state prison. I deal with people's anger issues all the time. Many of them are in here, because their anger got out of control just one time, and they ended up hurting or killing a person. What if that shoe had taken out your nephew's eye, broken a bone, etc? Suddenly, assault and abuse issues would come into play, and being in jail for such things is not a good place to be. Protect others and your parents, even if they do not like hearing it, they need to hear it. If the next time they end up seriously hurting someone, because you did not warn them, then you will potentially feel you bear part of the blame.

[Over43]

He's (the nephew that got whacked with the shoe) my sister's kid, I guess she laid into him after he did it, but that doesn't mean anything. He's never done such a thing to my children because I think he knows I'm not afraid of him and even though he's in his sixties now, if he did do something like that to one of my girls I'd go ape. He knows this and I think that's the only thing that has kept him from touching my kids. I've always thought a good beating would do him good (not very nice I know).

O43

[funkymonkey]

Over 43. That's such a heartbreaking story.

You have a lot more tollerance than I do...I would have tried to pummal him.

Your story brings back a lot of memories.

What's so frustrating for me is that I "forgive" and move on...and then something like that happens and it's not like it just reminds you of what this person is truly capable of but it feels like all the work to forgive and forget was all for nothing...and for a while...Like I went back in time.

I also understand that it's not always just as easy as picking up the phone and calling the cops...afterall it's family.

I myself am trying to figure out what true forgiveness means...in very similar circumstances.

But thinking of when we are forgiven by our Heavenly Father... (this is just my personal view)

Part of the forgiveness process is to committ to never do it again. If we do it again, then we haven't really truly repented and are not entirely worthy of forgiveness yet.

But I find it interesting that in my weaknesses, my Heavenly Father is still willing to give me another chance to get it right.

I kindof think it's the same when we try to forgive someone else... We need to see that they are ernestly willing to change; We need to see that the sin/habit is finished and that it won't happen again.

A few years back I had an abusive relationship (the guy was just like my dad...ahhh, the mistakes we make). Later he did tell me that he was truly sorry for what had happened.

But He wanted to continue to see me or even just keep in contact with me. So I quietly moved and completely cut off any contact. (to not only protect myself, but to protect him too... if my brother ever saw him again, he was going to "beat him to death and not think twice about it")

Just because I have completely severed all ties from this person and desire never to see them again in this life, does not mean that I haven't forgiven him. It just means that I have the responsibility to myself, and also to the Lord, to learn from this and never allow potential for that happening again.

Of course completely cutting off relationships with family members is not exactly the best option. BUT I really don't think God wants us to put ourselves or our children in harms way.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you need to say "it's ok" and then be best friends...it just means that you recognize that the chapter is closed and then the anger in your heart will surprisingly change to love. Until your father is honestly willing to change and seek forgiveness himself, I really don't think you are commanded to forgive.

It's so hard with family because you are at the place where you are ready to forgive, but they might not be at the place where they're ready to seek forgiveness.

Remember the first step to forgiveness... recognizing that what you are doing is wrong.

Hopefully your father feels remorseful and will ernestly strive for change and forgiveness.

If not, then he is not ready to be forgiven. I would make it very clear to him that what he did was wrong and it won't be tollerated. And he needs to follow the steps of forgiveness and express remorse to every person offended.

Until he can change, his time with the children needs to be completely watched or eliminated.

...of course this is all totally just my opinion and I could be totally wrong.

I know how impossible having that conversation/confrontation with your dad might be...just by thinking of my own dad. I really don't enjoy thinking about having that conversation with my own father when I have kids...but hopefully when that times comes I'll have the strength to do it.

I guess the best advice would be to ponder up a plan and then take it up to the Lord in prayer... he knows your dad the best, and can help you know if your plan is best for your situation.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

He's (the nephew that got whacked with the shoe) my sister's kid, I guess she laid into him after he did it, but that doesn't mean anything. He's never done such a thing to my children because I think he knows I'm not afraid of him and even though he's in his sixties now, if he did do something like that to one of my girls I'd go ape. He knows this and I think that's the only thing that has kept him from touching my kids. I've always thought a good beating would do him good (not very nice I know).

O43

Here's what I would do: Talk to your sister and come to an agreement then express that agreement to your dad. The agreement being that neither you nor your sister will have any contact with him whatsoever, nor will either of your kids be allowed near him. Period.

I would suggest writing it in a letter, saying it in person or over the phone gives too much chance for him to not listen. And make it clear to him WHY you are making this decision - in order to protect your children from his violence.

I don't know your dad or how this would affect him, but I see it in two ways - that it protects you and your sister's families, and it gives your father the opportunity to experience the consequences of his actions and possibly start the process of change.

And just because I'm Mormon... Prayer should also be involved. Let the Lord guide you in making the right decision to protect your family and to forgive (and possibly help) your father.

[brother01]

He's (the nephew that got whacked with the shoe) my sister's kid, I guess she laid into him after he did it, but that doesn't mean anything. He's never done such a thing to my children because I think he knows I'm not afraid of him and even though he's in his sixties now, if he did do something like that to one of my girls I'd go ape. He knows this and I think that's the only thing that has kept him from touching my kids. I've always thought a good beating would do him good (not very nice I know).

O43

When the abuser is someone we are taught that we have to honor it can screw with the sense of right and wrong we should have. My experience with a similar matter put me into therepy for over a year. I had to rebuild every sense from the ground up.

Jesus said we are not to be angry without cause. You have cause. Don't buy the line that we have to forgive when someone doesn't repent. Look at what Jesus said on the topic. He said if they repent and ask for forgiveness that we are to forgive them. We also find in the Scriptures that when someone keeps going back and offending us that we are not to have anything to do with them.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Not that the whole world is going to repent and believe to access the forgiveness that alone is in Him. What that means to us as believers is that we can take that offense - spiritually speaking - and put it at the foot of the cross and know that He will make things right in His ways and His time. Sometimes when the matter is something that is deep inside us, as childhood abuse is, we may find ourselves at the foot of that cross a number of times:-)

Protect yourself and those who cannot defend themselves.

Abuse is not a parental right.

[rameumptom]

We HAVE to forgive. Jesus stated, "I, the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive ALL men" (D&C 64:10).

Now, there is a difference between forgiving, and allowing a wicked person to get away with their crimes. Anger for a moment is fine, IF when "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" (D&C 121:43), but must be followed by an "increase of love." We cannot save a sinner, if we shun him/her.

I agree that abuse is not a right for anyone. And the innocent must be protected. It may mean keeping the kids away from a parent/grandparent. Having said that, we as adults must teach our children to forgive those who transgress against them. We must realize that the Lord's prayer means that we are forgiven insofar as we forgive. Holding grudges and anger only contaminates and hardens our hearts. It poisons our emotions and system, until a spiritual gangrene sets in. Finally, if the poison is not removed, it will take the spiritual life of the person who was offended. For this reason, God requires us to forgive. It is for OUR sakes that we must forgive, so that we do not end up as bad off as the offender is.

But we can still accept the concept of an offender requiring professional and spiritual help, or even prison, if the case requires it.

[rameumptom]

Note that D&C 98 was taken out of context above. We ARE to forgive, even when they do not repent:

38 Behold, this is an ensample unto all people, saith the Lord your God, for justification before me.

39 And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy—

40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

46 And upon his children, and upon his children’s children of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.

You will note that if the enemy never repents, we are to take it before the Lord and allow God to obtain the vengeance, not us. Forgiveness is for our sakes primarily, and secondarily for the sake of the offender.

And it has to be a true forgiveness.

I recommend this talk from President Faust, perhaps the most remarkable Conference Talk he ever gave: The Healing Power of Forgiveness

Edited August 6, 2008 by rameumptom

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Note that D&C 98 was taken out of context above. We ARE to forgive, even when they do not repent:

You will note that if the enemy never repents, we are to take it before the Lord and allow God to obtain the vengeance, not us. Forgiveness is for our sakes primarily, and secondarily for the sake of the offender.

And it has to be a true forgiveness.

I recommend this talk from President Faust, perhaps the most remarkable Conference Talk he ever gave: The Healing Power of Forgiveness

hmmm

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

After the 4th offense, if he does not repent, we are not to forgive. I think in this case when we take it to the Lord that he heals us of the pain that would "fester" as you earlier mentioned.

In the case of child abuse, if dad is still abusing even his grandchildren, then it seems to me he has not repented. And being that abuse is an on-going ordeal, it would qualify as more than just 4 trespasses. So by all means, don't forgive him :) Until he repents that is. And in the mean time pray about it.

45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

46 And upon his children, and upon his children’s children of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.

Whoa... so if my dad is abusive and doesn't repent, God answers that upon MY head too?

Thankfully there's more to that scripture:

47 But if the children shall repent, or the children’s children, and turn to the Lord their God, with all their hearts and with all their might, mind, and strength, and restore four-fold for all their trespasses wherewith they have trespassed, or wherewith their fathers have trespassed, or their fathers’ fathers, then thine indignation shall be turned away;

48 And vengeance shall no more come upon them, saith the Lord thy God, and their trespasses shall never be brought any more as a testimony before the Lord against them. Amen.

[Over43]

This tpoic took off a lot more than I thought it would. An interesting caveat: I was re-reading my patriarchal blessing again recently and I think part of it addresses this issue. And not to go into too much detail, at one point it does state that my parents love me, are not perfect, and have tried their best. In all honesty this is an interesting statement since I have often wondered how I got "put" into this family. I can't say I'm would have chosen such a situation in the PME. However, quite possibly Heavenly Father knew I needed to be there, and that's where I went. It could have been worse, I could have been living under a tin roof in a third world country with raw sewege running down the street and anacondas roaming the neighborhood.

We get what we get sometimes. Sometimes I'm just pretty sure that wasn't what I wanted.

I could tell more about my first years, but out of respect for my parents I will not divulge that. But things happened between the ages of 1-3 that I knew nothing about until my grandpa spilled the beans to my wife a year or two ago. (And just to make sure one thing is clear no sexual abuse is involved.)

O43

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

This tpoic took off a lot more than I thought it would. An interesting caveat: I was re-reading my patriarchal blessing again recently and I think part of it addresses this issue. And not to go into too much detail, at one point it does state that my parents love me, are not perfect, and have tried their best. In all honesty this is an interesting statement since I have often wondered how I got "put" into this family. I can't say I'm would have chosen such a situation in the PME. However, quite possibly Heavenly Father knew I needed to be there, and that's where I went. It could have been worse, I could have been living under a tin roof in a third world country with raw sewege running down the street and anacondas roaming the neighborhood.

We get what we get sometimes. Sometimes I'm just pretty sure that wasn't what I wanted.

I could tell more about my first years, but out of respect for my parents I will not divulge that. But things happened between the ages of 1-3 that I knew nothing about until my grandpa spilled the beans to my wife a year or two ago. (And just to make sure one thing is clear no sexual abuse is involved.)

O43

It's interesting you bring up the Patriarchal Blessing. Mine says that I "Mutually chose my family and friends in the preexistent time". I never could have believed that when my dad was abusive and my family being torn apart by it. However, as I said earlier, since my mom died things have changed dramatically and I've come to know my father a lot better and seeing all the things we share in common (things like dating habits that couldn't have been learned behavior), I understand much better why I might have chosen him as a father.

I think, even before Mom died, the healing process started for me when I heard the lyrics to a song by Savage Garden - "I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do." Understanding how my parents were raised and what they too had to suffer through really helps me to empathize with their difficulty trying to be better than their parents were.

[brother01]

You might find it enlightening to compare the teachings of Jesus in the NT to the teachings of Jesus in the D&C.

[fish4kitty]

Over43,

I grew up in a very abusive home. Forgiveness is all in your heart. I've forgiven my father years ago for the crap he did to me. It does not mean that I have forgotten. Some old dogs learn new tricks some go back to the old tricks because they are more comfortable with the old ones. The key to sucess in my own life has been that I know how far the chain is on the old dog and know when to pet the dog and when to run..LOL I personally would point out that this abuse is not right and will not be tolerated no matter what the circumstances are. Old man or not. There are better ways of pointing out or making a point to someone other than phsycal abuse or mental abuse. ABUSE IS ABUSE!!!!!!Put a stop to this NOW!!!