Response to Criticism of Joseph Smith's Lectures on Faith

[ama49]

Response to Criticism of Joseph Smith’s “Lectures on Faith” Grace for Grace

[WANDERER]

God is faithful to His people is what my understanding would be..two way thing...we have faith in Him and He is faithful...thus a principle of power and action. Without it..we would cease to exist, this principle would cease to exist...God would still exist..but not for us as *our* God because we could not have faith or conviction of the truth of God.

Forgot to scroll down for comments..... posting it as a comment.

Question: wouldn't God have a pre-existence before creation...not sure how to ask this question based on a limited understanding?

Edited August 13, 2008 by WANDERER

[Vort]

While the doctrinal teachings in the Lectures on Faith appear to be those of Joseph, I'm pretty sure most scholars agree that the book was actually written by Sydney Rigdon. Compared with other sermons written or spoken by Joseph, Lectures lacks the brevity and incisiveness common in Joseph's words. It also followed a question/answer pattern popular in didactic works of the time but somewhat disjointed and cumbersome for the modern reader (or at least for me).

[bytor2112]

Was the Lectures of Faith ever included in the Standard Works?

[guitarwizard]

It was part of the D&C at one point.

[Vort]

They were removed from the 1921 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants with the explanation that they "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons."

It is my understanding that the term "Doctrine and Covenants" itself derives from their original inclusion in the work; they comprised the "doctrine", while the revelations comprised the "covenants".

[Misshalfway]

I think that Faith is so important to our progression. It doesn't alarm me to hear that God has faith or that Jesus exercised faith or that they would cease to be God if they didn't. I think that faith is such a dynamic and essential principle to any follower.....but not just because it is important to believe. But because acquiring faith and then developing it is what moves us closer to becoming Christ-like and then ultimately trustworthy, it makes perfect sense to me that this attribute would be part of the fabric of what makes God a God. If Christ is our example, why wouldn't he be the absolute personification of faith and hope. To think that He doesn't have faith and hope is ridiculous.

Btw...Vort. I did not know that about the lectures of faith. Thanks I learned something new today.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Misshalfway

[NateHowe]

Whether they were written by Joseph Smith or Sydney Rigdon, they were prepared for and used by the Prophet Joseph. The doctrine contained in them is sound, although they are not scripture.

The idea that the Lord has faith is completely rational - can he set as a requirement for salvation something which He himself does not possess? No, He is our exemplar in all things. In every attribute of Godliness, including faith, He is the epitome of strength and perfection.

[HiJolly]

Question: wouldn't God have a pre-existence before creation...not sure how to ask this question based on a limited understanding?

Yes, He and She would.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Whether they were written by Joseph Smith or Sydney Rigdon, they were prepared for and used by the Prophet Joseph. The doctrine contained in them is sound, although they are not scripture.

The idea that the Lord has faith is completely rational - can he set as a requirement for salvation something which He himself does not possess? No, He is our exemplar in all things. In every attribute of Godliness, including faith, He is the epitome of strength and perfection.

Nate,

I have to admit I'm baiting you, but I would like your ideas here --- So, if God has faith, yet faith is not to have a perfect knowledge, and if God knows everything--- How is this possible?

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

Because faith is MORE than just a perfect knowledge. Knowing that one can walk on water is much different than actually doing it.

[HiJolly]

Because faith is MORE than just a perfect knowledge. Knowing that one can walk on water is much different than actually doing it.

I like it. Thanks.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

Nate,

I have to admit I'm baiting you, but I would like your ideas here --- So, if God has faith, yet faith is not to have a perfect knowledge, and if God knows everything--- How is this possible?

HiJolly

It comes down to a few basic discussions being made within the Church.

First, does God have foreknowledge of all things? Or does he just know all things present and past, with a good idea of what will potentially happen in the future (like a very good chess player)? While many current Church leaders establish that God no longer progresses in knowledge, Brigham Young and others did think so.

Also, those who propose it today, suggest that God does not progress in important knowledge, as all such knowledge (principles and doctrines) have been revealed. What is not known are future acts. So, for God to create a new world by his power requires faith to create it.

The other idea is that the reading of Alma 32, when taken contextually, suggests that the Zoramites expected a perfect faith based upon perfect faith instantaneously prior to believing in Christ. Alma taught that perfect faith does not happen, for most of us, in an instant, but grows slowly, like a seed. Yet, we do have those who have had a perfect knowledge of God (Joseph Smith comes to mind) from the very beginning, and then still had to develop faith in other areas to perfect his own faithfulness. Yet, he had a perfect faith based upon perfect knowledge, and was still expected to learn by faith.

I hope that came out clearer than it seems to have come out.

[NateHowe]

HiJolly, I appreciate the question.

Our faith in the mortal realm is not perfect knowledge, and cannot be while we are mortal. But the faith which we now have is a preparatory kind of faith - a kind we can only have while the veil is upon our minds. Once it is removed and we understand all things, our belief in the unseen will lie dormant. This is not the end of the power of faith for us, but it is the end of our ability to have blind faith.

Faith, then, as a creative and motivating power in the universe, is more than simple belief. Faith is complete, consuming, all-powerful trust. When, after this life, we know all things, we will still have complete and saving trust in our Father, His Son, and His plan. We will further trust that by the power of Priesthood, all things in the universe may be controlled, organized, and unified for the benefit of the posterity of God.

We read that by faith the Brother of Jared moved the mountain Zerin. I propose that the faith he exercised was not just a belief that God lives and that Jesus is the Savior. Remember that the Lord revealed himself to him, effectually lifting the veil. He already knew those basics beyond doubt, so his faith (in that sense) was dormant. Instead, by virtue of his complete, confident trust in both his own righteousness and the Father's Priesthood power, he was able to command the elements, and they obeyed. I believe his trust that the elements would obey may also have aided in the process. Thus, this type of faith with the benefit of knowledge can be exercised according to the will of God.

I mentioned trust in one's own righteousness. Joseph Smith taught that in order to have faith, a rational being must have an actual knowledge that the course of life he is pursuing is according to the will of God (paraphrasing). In order to move the mountain, the Brother of Jared had to have that confidence in his own righteousness, coupled with a revelatory confidence that the act was according to the will of God. The will of God is governed by eternal law. Thus, when God exercises the power of His faith, he also has the same assurances, namely, that He is completely righteous, and that He is working in accordance with eternal law. If both of these conditions are met, He can have complete trust that His will is absolutely correct, and that the elements will obey. His goal is to bring us to a point where we can exercise the same faith, because we also will be completely righteous and knowledgeable. Thus we see that faith in its fulness cannot come without a fulness of knowledge.

Now, I have not seen this type of explanation spelled out in published Church materials, but I believe these are logical conclusions based on the Lectures on Faith and the Scriptures. These opinions, however, remain my own unless corroborated by Church materials.

[NateHowe]

I'm going to bump this, because I think it was quite an interesting conversation I'd like to start again.

[richlittell]

I think the lecture is misunderstood, as we tend to think of "faith" in a religious sense e.g. I can't see God, but I believe in him and so forth

Actually faith is the first moving principle of all actions, God's, man's, ants', and so forth and so on. If I see a penny on the ground I will not take action to pick it up if I first don't have the faith that the strength of my body can overcome the laws of gravity. It's not a really complicated thought, to think that God and Christ must have faith in a thing otherwise they wouldn't take action to do it. And the principle of faith as power is only an extension of action, in that all things in heaven and earth operate thus, and this is how God moves his creations.

Edited September 15, 2008 by richlittell

[rameumptom]

Faith is based on evidence. The ability to pick up a penny is based upon previous data - I have picked them up before.

Evidence of God and Christ comes in different forms to different people. Some people see a beautiful sunset and are convinced that someone had to construct that. Others read the Bible and are convinced from their parents' or others' testimonies. Many are converted by the witness of the Holy Ghost.

The Lectures on Faith teach us that the more correct information we have about a thing, the greater faith we can have in it. Who has faith in the banking/financial industry right now? But who had faith in it just a few years ago? On some things, evidence changes, and with it, our belief system can change. The thing that does not change is the existence of God and the principles he has set forth to bring about His work and glory.

I have found that I have greater evidence and witness of God and his work now than the day I was converted 33 years ago. Why? Because I've watched for evidences and I've received different evidences along the way. None of them are conclusive. None of them give me absolute knowledge. But they have provided a strong and consistent foundation for me to build upon.

[richlittell]

Because faith is MORE than just a perfect knowledge. Knowing that one can walk on water is much different than actually doing it.

Let's ask Peter about that, I think he'd agree. :)

[NateHowe]

Faith is based on evidence. The ability to pick up a penny is based upon previous data - I have picked them up before.

In the same way, God has previous data to suggest that the elements will obey His voice. Faith does not necessarily contain an inherent element of doubt.