Do you think the 1/3 knew....

[WANDERER]

Three percent...

Jesus was talking about the last days when departing from the temple.

and how they would know when He would come again...

He makes several temple references:

present day reference in the parable of the talents: the money exchangers and usury going on in the temple...at least the servant should have done that with the money...even though it was considered the worst way to make a profit (they were extorting the poor people who came to buy the offerings..not just the foreigners who had to trade in their coinage for a shekel).

future reference: weddings....the stomping of the glass at the end of the wedding ceremony... not one stone of the temple would be left standing/the return of Christ the bridegroom and the rebuilding of the temple

past prophecy reference: Daniel. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

And there you have it...unfaithful, unprepared and unprofitable servants in the last days when the love of most will grow cold and many will turn away.

But you know: not having half a litre of oil or 9 ounces to fill an olive oil lamp (people used oil for everything: cooking, light...this would be like not paying your electricity bill...brides had to have everything ready to go by their bed...*so how many of them didn't have any oil when their hubbies came to collect them and weren't properly prepared for their wedding after a whole year*) or letting a million dollars lie buried in the ground...we're talking the kind of worthless servants no one would hire to put in charge of anything or rule over much.

Now if you can't be on time for the second coming with all those trumpets blowing ...you're not ready for it and scurry off and show up late...you're frightened of the accounting and the hardness of the Lord and are silly enough to justify your lack of action during the accounting by calling Him a hard master..it has a certain *doh* factor to it. So the whole of Matthew 24 and 25 about what it will be like... centres on loving God and loving others and how He will know and recognise us by our hearts...

On the possible heartlessness of wise virgins...welllll...they didn't know how long it was until the groom would arrive after the trumpeting herald...they thought that there would be just enough time for the other girls to go and get some oil and that they could possibly run out. No one knoweth the hour and all that. Since Jesus used the word wise...we can assume there wasn't any evil intent behind their actions. So...not a good idea to rely on association and the wisdom of others to bail you out one might assume. That covers the one third who thought it was a pretty good idea at the time and got stuck with their choice.

Edited September 7, 2008 by WANDERER

[Connie]

Thanks. I guess as it is I just don't care.

Back to topic.

I think it is so sad that you do not care, because God cares. You are His child, His son! He loves you with a love that is deeper than any mortal can love, and He wants you back. He wants you to be able to return to Him. He wants you to come home!

I realize that was off topic but felt it needed to be said. :)

[Connie]

Anyway,

I read something in my hubby's philosophy book that goes right along with this. I wish i could type up the whole section, but it is rather long, so i'll just type up a few paragraphs (still long but hopefully you can bear with me).

Introductory statement: Socrates equated virtue with knowledge and vice with ignorance.

From the book: Philosophy: History and Problems by Samuel Stumpf

"Because man has a desire for happiness, he chooses his acts with the hope that they will bring him happiness. Which acts, or what behavior, will produce happiness? Socrates knew that some forms of behavior appear to produce happiness, but in reality do not. For this reason, men frequently choose an act that may in itself be questionable but that they, nevertheless, think will bring them happiness. A thief may know that stealing as such is wrong, but he steals in the hope that it will bring him happiness. Similarly, men pursue power, physical pleasure, and property, which are the symbols of success and happiness, confusing these with the true ground of happiness.

The equating of vice with ignorance is not so contrary to common sense after all, for the ignorance Socrates speaks of refers not to the act itself but to its ability to produce happiness. It is ignorance about one's soul, about what it takes to 'make the soul as good as possible.' Wrongdoing is, therefore, a consequence of an inaccurate estimate of modes of behavior. It is the inaccurate expectation that certain kinds of things or pleasures will produce happiness. Wrongdoing, then, is the product of ignorance simply because it is done with the hope that it will do what it cannot do. Ignorance consists in not knowing that certain behavior cannot produce happiness. It takes a true knowledge of human nature to know what it requires to be happy. It also takes a true knowledge of things and types of behavior to know whether they can fulfill the human requirements for happiness. And it requires knowledge to be able to distinguish between what appears to give happiness and what really does."

I understand this to mean that one can "know" they are doing wrong, going against God, but still be "ignorant" that such CANNOT produce happiness.

The 1/3 knew they were going against God's will. It was very deliberate on their part. They had lived in God's presence and knew His will. They somehow believed that they would win the war despite that.

The 5 foolish virgins (as the virgins represent membership in the church) have been taught the commandements. They know what is right. They know they are not doing all they should be doing. But they believe that they can find happiness where it does not exist.

Choice is so important! That's what the Plan was. God wants us to choose to love Him and return to Him, but He will not force it upon us. He wants us to choose it for ourselves.

[BenRaines]

Does the scripture say it was 1/3 or "the third part"? If "The Third Part" it could be much less than 1/3, could be more too. Not the first part or the second part but the third part. Food for thought.

Ben Raines

[melissar]

Does the scripture say it was 1/3 or "the third part"? If "The Third Part" it could be much less than 1/3, could be more too. Not the first part or the second part but the third part. Food for thought.

Please explain. I do not understand that. Thank you.

[pam]

What he is saying is...the scriptures don't say 1/3 followed Satan. The scriptures state that a third part followed him. We have assumed when stating a third part that would equate to 1/3. Not necessarily so. As Ben stated..could be a little more or a little less.

Satan persuaded "a third part of the hosts of heaven" to turn away from the Father (D&C 29:36). As a result of this rebellion, Satan and his followers were cut off from God's presence and denied the blessing of receiving a physical body (see Revelation 12:9).

Edited September 7, 2008 by pam

[threepercent]

I understand this to mean that one can "know" they are doing wrong, going against God, but still be "ignorant" that such CANNOT produce happiness.

I think this is a good summary. what got me thinking of this was this article:

M E R I D I A N M A G A Z I N E

Wonder What the War in Heaven Was Like? Watch California This Fall

By Gary Lawrence

“There was a war in heaven,“ my dad said as he taught me about our pre-earthly existence and the purpose of life. It had only been a few years since he had returned from service as a Marine in World War II, so it was natural that his 10-year-old son immediately imagined a great battle with planes, tanks, and bazookas. What a war it must have been, I thought.

How disappointed I was when he told me the implements of that special conflict were … words.

Words? How exciting could that have been? I liked my version better.

But I soon grasped the importance of this hinge event in our existence and the “weapons” we used to defend the principle of agency and God's plan for the happiness of His children. And I grew to understand that this war has not ended, that only the battlefield has changed.

That battlefield is now California and the parallels between that pre-mortal conflict and the battle over the definition of marriage are striking.

The scriptures tell us the beginning (“Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man” 1) and the end of the heavenly phase of that war (“he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” 2), but they do not reveal the details of the conflict itself. We can deduce, however, that Lucifer and his followers must have used very effective arguments to turn a third of the hosts of heaven away from the Father despite pure knowledge of God's will.

From 35 years of studying arguments in political campaigns, and a bit of reverse engineering, here is my stab at what these arguments might have been.

Argument 1: Equality. Lucifer sets the foundation by appealing to fairness and the equal worth of every spirit child.

We are all children of the Father. It's only fair that all of us be together forever and enjoy the same things the Father has.

Argument 2: Sympathy. Having set the logic, Lucifer turns to emotion.

Under the Father's plan, some of your friends will never return. Look at Brother Jones here, or Sister Smith over there. How are you going to feel when you find out that people such as they — good, deserving people — may not make it back?

Argument 3: Hate. After playing on the victim angle, Lucifer gradually steers emotions to the negative. Knowing that rebellion against righteousness can never be sustained without hate, he sows doubt about the Father Himself and leads the gullible step by step to that absolutely necessary ingredient if he is to win.

Father doesn't really love you as much as you think He does. He has already prepared three kingdoms for us — a first-class kingdom, a second-class kingdom, and a third-class kingdom. None of us should be second-class citizens. This is unfair. This is discrimination. This is bigotry. This is hatred. … And it's okay to hate in return.

Argument 4: Change. Now Lucifer returns to logic.

The old ways have not worked. On the worlds without number the Father has created, too many were left behind and never returned to the Father's presence. It's time to do things differently. It's time for change.

Argument 5: Guarantee. Amid the arguments about the consequences of each choice, Lucifer administers his clincher.

Follow me and do what I say and I will guarantee that we will all return and live in celestial glory. And when I have the glory and power of the Father, I will make you my leaders and we will rule over those who did not follow us.

It's the familiar guarantee of happiness and power that every tyrant in history has promised his followers. If he had been asked the details of his plan, Lucifer never would have admitted that he did not know how to create physical bodies for his followers to inhabit, and would not have revealed his plan to take over the bodies the Father would create. Lucifer would have couched his guarantee in amorphous language that appealed to those looking for an easier way without work. He's not called the father of lies for nothing.

Now turn to the present battle. Whereas the principle under fire in the war in heaven was agency — the right to choose — the target in 2008 in California is marriage, both a principle and an institution. Just as agency is essential to our progress and happiness, so is marriage “central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” 3And the arguments of those supporting same-sex marriage are eerily familiar:

Equality. Together with its ally fairness, equality of outcome will always be the beginning point for those opposed to any part of God's plan.

Gays and lesbians are people, too. They have the same emotions as anyone else. It is only fair that they be given equal rights. They should not be second-class citizens.

Sympathy. Emotion is evoked by specific situations, in this case having two women in their 80s be the first same-sex marriage in California.

Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin have the same loving and caring feelings for each other that any man and wife in a traditional marriage experience, and have been true to those feelings for five decades. Why can't society allow them a simple measure of happiness?

Hate. The opposition must be shamed, vilified, and demonized. These descriptors of defenders of traditional marriage can already be found in anti-Prop 8 literature and blogs, and the list will grow:

Christian extremists, anti-gay, right-wing radicals, old-fashioned, hung-up, homophobes, bigots, stupid, intolerant, mean-spirited, knuckle-draggers.

Change. With emotions high and the opposition villainized, a bow to fairness makes the proposed solution look reasonable.

It's time to change, to break free of oppression. There are many types of families, and marriage should be broadened to include all of them. It's only fair, and if it will make them happy, why not?

Guarantee. This time the guarantee is not what someone will get, but a reassurance of what will not change.

Same-sex marriage will not harm anyone. Heterosexual marriage will not be hurt. Nothing will change except all people will have every right that anyone else has.

In short, if the arguments used in the war in heaven were persuasive enough to draw billions of God's spirit children away from Him, why should we not expect them to be used on the present battlefield? The same minions cast out from the Father's presence still remember what worked up there.

The stakes are critical. If same-sex marriage advocates can dilute and hollow out the central part of the Creator's plan, the whole structure collapses — the family, the nation, and in time civilization itself. The time has come for those of us who believe that God, not man, created marriage (fortunately still a majority) to take a stand and defend it.

Proposition 8 is a defining moment, a tipping point, a critical battle in our existence, melodramatic as that might sound. This is not a political sideshow. Long after the world only vaguely remembers a President McCain or a President Obama, people will continue to be affected by what happened in the California battle to protect marriage in the fall of 2008.

Notes

1 Moses 4:3

2 Revelation 12:9

3 The Family: A Proclamation to the World

[threepercent]

AND...

thinking about the "virgins" representing the church and thinking that half will be told "I don't know you" or in the JST "you don't know Me"

So when I look around the ward, and of course this site, and others, I cant help but wonder, because i really see division of thoughts, and of course both sides think the other side is ignorant.

So how do we know what side we are on?

I mean, like A-Train said, these people thought to some extent they were on the right side

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

SO half the people you sit with each sabbath day think your the foolish half, and you think its them....

I also think that ignorance of the law will not be a applicable defense here, because the law is available to the church.

[Guest tomk]

that they were going to be kicked out? how about the 5 foolish virgins, do you think they knew they were going to miss the Bridegroom?

Because I suspect they thought they were all ok, and I also suspect they thought they were on the right side of things. I really doubt they thought they were evil.

I also wonder if they thought WE were evil, I mean after all, under the plan WE selected, some people are sure going to everlasting destruction. I can see how they would think we were heartless.

There's too many posts to read through them ALL. I am sure I agree and also disagree with several of them. :)

I'll give you my take on this.

We must build upon a correct foundation. If we begin right, we can end right. If we begin wrong, we'll end-up wrong.

All 10 virgins were members of the true Church. The 5 foolish virgins did not take the Holy Ghost as their guide, and thus, were not prepared to meet Him when He came. Consider yourself lovingly, but sternly warned!!

The 1/3 hosts of heaven also took the same course. They wanted to accomplish their progression in some other way. But there was no other way. THIS IS THE WAY!!! What we are down here experiencing right now IS THE WAY!!!!!!! There isn't any other way.

They had their agency. They chose not to continue in their progression. They did it in full light and knowledge of the consequences!! They weren't tricked and they weren't forced. Their progression just ... ground to a halt. But they chose that. God makes it clear that He can help us progress, but only within a certain framework. He is bound to that framework as much as we are. He's not making this up as He goes. The universe works a certain way. Exalation is offered under certain conditions ( the covenant relationship with Christ ) and in no other way.

It always returns to choice.

[kona0197]

Since we already know what the LDS point of view on it is, and that no other point of view is allowed here, there is no value in bringing up same sex marriage here.

Why not? the rules say we are not allowed to discuss politics yet we have several threads that are based on politics. If they lock this one I would consider that being a bit two faced.

[kona0197]

What I meant is that it's kinda questionable to close a thread on this subject when we have other forbidden topics being discussed with no worries about locked threads.

[Guest Seraphim]

To clear up any confusion regarding discussion of politics here:

LDS.Net will allow political discussion, also as long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules.

Seraphim

[kona0197]

Thanks Saraphim. But the thread I was talking about was about Mitt Romney. Falls under this rule:

7. Do not post or upload any names of political candidates or posts that insinuate a particular candidate.

[Guest Seraphim]

Mitt Romney is no longer a candidate.

[threepercent]

well, I didnt bring it up to hijack my thread, I brought it up because it brings up interesting methodology. the "subject" could be anything, but it LEADS to my question, and obvioulsy shows right off, how easy that separation can and does take place. It is these "sensitive" issues that are exactly what I suspect will be some of the issues that are indicative of "depart from me, I never knew you"

and we HAVE to be able to talk about politics. that IS the continuing war in heaven, where you stand on ISSUES.

but just because we talk about politics does not mean we have to talk about parties or platforms or persons. when it comes to politics, if we are searching for truth, should talk about principle or law, and let each person figure out for themselves who best represents the principle they embrace.

I am interested in peoples opinion on the subject of the thread. I know by the nature of the subject its hard to stay on target. but use the force luke, stay on target!

I think there are people who really think they are doing good and are doing evil. they do "call evil good and good evil" in the last days right? we are in the last days right?

didnt whats his face tell Moroni that he "knew" that the gadiation robbers were "good" ?

how do we KNOW we will be on the right side? I mean, its important.

thanks.

[Connie]

well, I didnt bring it up to hijack my thread, I brought it up because it brings up interesting methodology. the "subject" could be anything, but it LEADS to my question, and obvioulsy shows right off, how easy that separation can and does take place. It is these "sensitive" issues that are exactly what I suspect will be some of the issues that are indicative of "depart from me, I never knew you"

and we HAVE to be able to talk about politics. that IS the continuing war in heaven, where you stand on ISSUES.

but just because we talk about politics does not mean we have to talk about parties or platforms or persons. when it comes to politics, if we are searching for truth, should talk about principle or law, and let each person figure out for themselves who best represents the principle they embrace.

I am interested in peoples opinion on the subject of the thread. I know by the nature of the subject its hard to stay on target. but use the force luke, stay on target!

I think there are people who really think they are doing good and are doing evil. they do "call evil good and good evil" in the last days right? we are in the last days right?

didnt whats his face tell Moroni that he "knew" that the gadiation robbers were "good" ?

how do we KNOW we will be on the right side? I mean, its important.

thanks.

It is a great question. It brings to mind Moroni 7. Maybe there are some answers there?

Moroni 7:12-17

"Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

But behold, that which is of God invitheth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him."

Sorry, that was long, but i really could have kept going. The whole chapter is great!

[john doe]

Whether or not it's two faced, these discussions never get anywhere, and are simply ended, with the pro-LDS-doctrine side being given the inevitable final word. It's a waste of time to bother trying to discuss something when people won't even hear you out. So again, there's no value in bringing it up.

Uh, fent? This IS a pro-LDS website. If you are uncomfortable with that, there are other sites out there where your views can be aired without hindrance. We are not obligated to let anyone post anything they want. We reserve the right to uphold LDS values and morals. We are not obligated to allow talk that belittles or ridicules LDS and our beliefs and doctrine.

[pam]

Thanks Saraphim. But the thread I was talking about was about Mitt Romney. Falls under this rule:

7. Do not post or upload any names of political candidates or posts that insinuate a particular candidate.

Kona I've brought this up to you before. Heather who is the administrator of this site..brought up the Mitt Romney thread because..since it was a HUGE possibility that he might be the running mate and he IS Mormon...she wanted to be prepared with that so blogs etc could be done. How about dropping it now.

[WANDERER]

I found it odd likening the battle of Heaven to the battle over same sex marriage. Doesn't that trivialise the war in Heaven a little? Sorry, but the first event and the second event are not equivalent.

I'm just wondering what event on earth you would equate the Resurrection and atonement with...it's...just...not...comparable.

Would you liken it to having the legislation revoked? My head so can't go there.

[threepercent]

I found it odd likening the battle of Heaven to the battle over same sex marriage. Doesn't that trivialise the war in Heaven a little? Sorry, but the first event and the second event are not equivalent.

I'm just wondering what event on earth you would equate the Resurrection and atonement with...it's...just...not...comparable.

Would you liken it to having the legislation revoked? My head so can't go there.

its a bit off topic again, but:

1. War in heaven was fought using words. how are words used in war. lets look at a current war where words are the weapons. didnt think that was so difficult.

2. the resurrection and Atonement took place on earth. but there are things to help us understand, such as Abraham and Issac, and giving your life for another. and living and giving your life for another:

[threepercent]

Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

thats great! thanks. I often think of this and Korihor, and suspect that MOST of the time people do judge for themselves and it is plain, I think people KNOW in their hearts when things are wrong, and they for the most part just dont want to face it or admit it because to do so would require change.

Kinda the walking around blind in the noon day sun thing.

[Islander]

I tend to believe that indeed, by using the war in Heaven as a metaphor we may be trying to simplify the issue. In heaven they ALL knew that they were, in fact, rebelling and fighting agains the declared will and word of God. There was God The Father's plan and Satan's in clear opposition and defiance. For those that beheld the face of the Father, heard His voice and still openly rebelled there is no excuse or forgiveness. The same holds true for those that after receiving a witness and manifestation of the Spirit of the truthfulness of the Gospel, if they deny the Holy Ghost and the Christ they will not be forgiven. They can not justify themselves alluding to error for they knew.

We as people of faith, guided by revelation in the Church of Jesus Christ have a clear and precise position on the issues before us. Others, even some who profess to be also religious, only rely on their own understanding and have even taken a position on the other side of the issue. Fortunately for us we have natural allies on certain matters of faith that permeates the social arena. If they can discern the will of God on these issues so can others. The fact that they take a different position evidenced that they are cut off from the Spirit.

I can not speak for others not will I mock then if they find themselves in the wrong side of the issue. But if they are opposing the will of God they are calling evil good and good evil. So I will commit my time and resources to further the cause of truth and righteousness as declared by God thru His prophets. Since the battle lines have been drawn for quite some time it makes no sense to argue with anyone.

[WANDERER]

As a newspaper headline:

government likened to Satan and gays likened to evil demonic angels....

Does that sound about right to you?

[Guest tomk]

Whether or not it's two faced, these discussions never get anywhere, and are simply ended, with the pro-LDS-doctrine side being given the inevitable final word. It's a waste of time to bother trying to discuss something when people won't even hear you out. So again, there's no value in bringing it up.

::: feeling a bit defensive :::::

This is a pro-LDS board! No big surprises there!

Are you expecting us to ... agree ... with doctrines that fly in the face of our beliefs, fent? Should we agree with dissenters just so we don't come off as close-minded?

I do see the other point of view -- I just don't agree with it. People are constantly trying to find loopholes or work-arounds, instead of simply submitting to the covenant relationship with Christ!

Suggesting that the 1/3 were somehow treated unfairly is just a bunch of hooey! They'd love to have us believing such!

[threepercent]

As a newspaper headline:

government likened to Satan and gays likened to evil demonic angels....

Does that sound about right to you?

classic example of how words are used in war.

governments are of course the prime target of Satan. his entire platform in the war in heaven was "i will govern" and he still seeks to do so.

but also:

1 We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

government is a tool, so government can be of God, or it can represent Satans counterfeit. but of course if we draw attention to this we are evil? yes? no?

and to make such a comment about our brothers and sisters who are gay is just vile.

classic example of how words are used in war.