Eve's sin upon all women?

[Nappaljarri]

///Don't you do this over there? I have seen female netball and hockey crowds do this...often and frequently and worse than guys. And yep...footy fans of either sex. Admittedly I have also participated : ) . It's quite socially acceptable. I'm in Australia : )))) But currently I only make an effort once a year for State of Origin by pulling out the right colour sweater...because the wrong colour sweater is fatal. ///

Go Queenslander!!!! Queenslander, Queenslander!!!! I never picked you as an aussie Wanderer. I feel so much closer to you now...LOL!!!!

[WANDERER]

LOL Go the Marones.

[Nappaljarri]

Curse of Eve = Transgression of Eve ...except curses are really blessings?

The consequence of sin is separation from God, also known as the "curse of God"....how is separation from God a blessing? Good gifts and all that.

Separation from God had to happen so that God could "prove them (us) here with if we would do all that we were commanded to" (Abraham:2) of him. According to our beliefs, God wanted us to become as he is, and for that to happen, we had to be separated from him and use our agency combined with our faith and good works to show that we could walk his path and come back into his presence with the help and blessings of the Atonement of Christ (being the gift of repentance) which with out we were doomed.

[Maya]

Istarted to read the this thread and got to side 3 adn suddenly I see the side 6.... so I decided to jump to my IMHO.

I sometimes refer to a very good finnish saying: a man may eb the head of the family, but the woman is the neck that turns the head.

Just like Eve made Adam see why he should take the apple.... just like that we women can make our husbands to see things, they cant see, or dont want to see to be nessessary for our eternal life.

There is an other saying: Behind ever great man there is a great woman.

I used to be all for woman power.... but I cant understandit how but the missionaries, when they tought me, even though what they said was pretty lame I got this encredeble peace in my mind, that thsi si the right way, the Gods way. I may not understand why, but I just know this is the way it should be.

Church teaches the man and woman to discuss together to read scriptures, to find out the answers to lead their family... and then it should be the father, who informs about the decitions. He also should take actions when the rules are broken. How ever the man has the veto right, about which he is only responsible to the God. So when he uses that, he better know it is righious!

Men beeing away in work, Church, world... the leadership in many things falls naturally to the woman. Many times I have wished to discuss with my husband before deciding... but many times it has been impossible to reach him.

We all are Gods spiritchildren and we all are different. We all ahve our strong sides adn our week sides. I have a feeling these have a big role to play in if we are women or men. From woman it is asked other strong sides than of man. Maybe we can wish what ever we want, but we have already in us which we will be good at. Maybe some even have wanted to be born in wrong body? It is like the kids that really bad want to be something they have no possibilities to be. We need to know and understand our limits. and we need to learn to like what we are good at and forget the envying of others cabablilties. We need to learn teamwork!

[WANDERER]

In the essense of having a sense of humour: may I recommend a verse that will assist LOL

Somewhere *mmm, perhaps in Revelations* it says

Even in the last days the hand maidens will prophecy.

Really, it's a very powerful scripture.

Say the scripture frequently *grin*.

Whenever you come across some guy who doesn't think you should be doing what you're doing or whatever: recite it with as much humbleness as you have...whatever you do...don't start reciting Isaiah as that will freak them right out ; )

Firstly....a handmaiden is the lowest of the low....even amongst women she doesn't have any status...she's hardly a contender for equality even within her own gender.

Secondly if women only get to prophesy when the fabric of the world is ripping apart and their death is imminent.... not too many people find this threatening either. Unless of course they run their own covert group of end-time survivalists ...in which case they may try to enlist you as a possible Miriam. Unless you really love CANNING, this is not an option you should consider.

Thirdly, since you're probably not prophesying but just doing the most humble of church work...you're not doing anything suspiciously end of days.

Lastly, mentioning the last days may make them think seriously about being charitable to others...and even if they don't have charity...they may at least think that the last days are too far away to worry about...

Laugh, it's essential in situations like this.

Edited September 20, 2008 by WANDERER

[WANDERER]

Moving along to: What do you do when God hands you a seemingly impossible task? How do you deal with brick walls and be all that God requires of you? How do we help Priesthood holders?

[Nappaljarri]

Moving along to: What do you do when God hands you a seemingly impossible task? How do you deal with brick walls and be all that God requires of you? How do we help Priesthood holders?

Is that two different questions Wanderer, or are you saying that helping priesthood holders is the seemingly impossible task? LOL

[Dove]

You know, Dove, the thought that came to me, for some reason, while I read your post is the catch 22 that comes with our agency. Yes, we are given agency, and that allows us to do, choose, or follow whatever, or whomever we desire. But, the ultimate point of being given agency is to give it up.

Here are 3 powerful examples, from 3 very different times, of what I'm saying:

The Mighty Jehova in the pre-mortal existance, showing us, in the first estate, the very purpose for being given agency:

Moses 4:

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

In the greatest moment of mortal suffering and trial, Here is His shining example yet again:

Matt. 26:

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Then, in modern revelation, through a modern prophet, we hear His example again in the form of instruction, and what we must do to follow His great example:

D&C 109:

44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours.

In order to truly be free, the choice we must make is to give up our agency completely and totally to do His will.

It seems like an oxymoron. But, as you study the scriptures and look for this principle it will stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm not exactly why I shared this with you, but I hope you will get some use out of it.

Thank you, Justice, for this post.

I don't know quite to think of what you wrote. It's a little difficult for me, because I don't believe there is anyway I can really "give up" my agency to anyone, even God. I see it as using my agency to be fully obedient to Him, but that is still my choice. He will never force me to do so, and I am sooo grateful for that. If you will read my other posts, I believe you will understand why, although I don't want to belabor the background I have come from.

I had a dear friend years ago teach me about the "want to" in life. That everything we experience/do/choose is, in the end, what we want, or wanted all along. What a beautiful concept for me~ as it brought my accountability for my life more deeply into my consciousness.

And, I am struggling with my faith anyway, right now. I'm not saying this is correct, but it is where I'm at. I still have my struggles with God and in trusting Him fully. But I'm trying. I read my scriptures and prayed today. For me, that was a victory. Your prayers and faith on my behalf would be much appreciated, if you would like to :).

One thing I am grateful for is how often I feel the reassurances of the Spirit, that He is pleased with my efforts to do, and be, better. Sometimes I feel He has stepped back and left me to deal with my life the best I can, letting me figure it out on my own. I don't often feel that He intervenes in ways; however, there are other ways that He shows up in flying colors, when I take the time to think about it.

Honestly, it is too painful for me right now to try to do the kind of obedience you mention. But there are laws that I can strive to keep. Prayer, scripture study, tithing, going to church, and overcoming my word of wisdom problems. I never knew that following His will would be the most difficult and, in a lot of ways, the most painful, process of my whole life. This has been my experience of it since my mission 20 years ago. Admittedly, I have had a lot of resistance to the pain I have experienced while striving to be obedient. It is His love that keeps me pressing forward to try, try again.

Wow, what a journey I've had in this life. I am so grateful for the opportunity to have it.

Dove

[richlittell]

In the essense of having a sense of humour: may I recommend a verse that will assist LOL

Somewhere *mmm, perhaps in Revelations* it says

Even in the last days the hand maidens will prophecy.

There have always been women who have the gift of prophecy in the church, and there are many now, though it may be more prominent or powerful in the evening of the last days (we are already in the last days). Women have the same access to prophecy, visions, and revelation as do men, and I would personally hold, that any woman, or man for that matter, can have the same prophecies and visions that all the Presidents of this Church or other prophets have ever had, the difference being only that the President is the only one who can make a prophecy or revelation binding upon the church, or rather, make it official.

Lehi, the father and leader of his family, had a very powerful vision, and Nephi, his son not only had that same vision, but had it in more detail with more explanations and accompanied by an angel. I think any of Lehi's daughter's would have (and might have) had that same experience if they desired it and had faith enough.

The brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord because his faith was enough to lift the veil, and I would say that any other man or woman has the right to having that same power, the lifting of the veil barred only by one's level of faith (and within Heavenly Father's will).

Not only have women been prophets, but many women have made significant contributions to the Lord's work. And I think someday we'll have a history that reveals even many more women that were never written about.

We really do all share in the same gifts, and the offices of the priesthood are only for the purpose of order and organization in God's work.

Edited September 21, 2008 by richlittell

[richlittell]

In reply to Justice and Dove,

I think it is simply that we all work towards and hope that some day our "will" will be swallowed up by the Lord's will, just as Christ's will was swallowed up in the will of his Father.

I think that would be a slightly different take than saying that we are first given our agency so that later we have to surrender it.

Remember when the Lord gave to Nephi the son of Helaman the power to move mountains and so forth because he knew Nephi would not do that which was contrary to the Lord? I think the Lord was allowing Nephi his free agency. There may be more than one righteous approach to a thing, so our agency is never surrendered.

Maybe it would be better to say we surrender ourselves and our own will to that of the Father, but not our agency.

Anywho, it's all just semantics, I think we all know the jest of what Justice meant, and what Dove was also referring to.

cheers! :)

Edited September 21, 2008 by richlittell

[WANDERER]

Providing links to Richlittells threads where the conversation continues

Significant contribution of women http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/14401-significant-contribution-women.html

and

Faith of my Mothers http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/14402-faith-my-mothers.html

[Justice]

Yes, and I'd like to add that the Lord never would have given Nephi that kind of trust and power if Nephi had not first demonstrated that he had given up his will for the Lord's.

I agree, that it might be semantics. It's more like we were given our agency so that we would choose God's will. There is no reward or punishment if we do not choose a thing.

Dove, everyone struggles. I am struggling with areas of my faith also. If a person totally gave up their wills to do God's they probably wouldn't be on earth anymore. The Church exists to help it's members do this, it is not a place for those who have done this to meet and discuss how they've all accomplished it.

Hang in there, and I promise to remember you and your struggles in my prayers, and would appreciate if you would do the same for me in yours. :)

[Dove]

Hello, Justice,

I would be happy to remember you and your struggles in my prayers :). It's nice to work together for each other's benefits.

I didn't realize that you had struggles too! You sounded so strong in your passage on giving up your will to His. Thanks for your honesty in letting my know you struggle, and that we all struggle with this.

For each of us, there is the "straight and narrow" path to the tree of life. For me, it is about enduring to the end. I realized yesterday (I believe I was being blessed for reading my scriptures that day) that for me, I need to take responsibility for creating my own happiness. I need to work on doing those things that will help me to feel better, to strive for a more positive attitude, and to work on enjoying life, even if my life in some hours consists of doing housework, paying bills, dieting, exerscising, and doing things that take me out of my comfort zone. I also realized, that while I am required to work for my happiness, the gratitude comes in that I am even being given the strength and opportunity to do so.

I don't believe the AA programs' step that teaches that without God we are powerless. I believe, with the agency He has given us, we have also been given the power to work and strive for our "want to's" in life. Some of us choose to use this power unwisely. But we are still given the power to choose.

Thanks, Justice,

Dove

[Justice]

One thing I've learned is there is a fine line between speaking the truth and being a hypocrite. We must speak the truth so we don't mislead people, even though we aren't perfect in that thing. :)

It's been a pleasure speaking with you. Here's hoping there are many more discussions to follow.

[WANDERER]

Currently, as a result of exploring the insights given on this thread in regards to the whole family concept and how it relates to church structure, I'm now stuck at: Do LDS believe in a polygamist God?

[rameumptom]

While some members believe that God may have more than one wife, there is no reason to believe one way or the other. We are taught in the Book of Mormon by Jacob that monogamy is the standard, except when God commands otherwise. All that is required in heaven is one spouse.

If anyone has more than one spouse there, I'm sure God will explain it in a way that will be acceptable to us all.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Dove, everyone struggles. I am struggling with areas of my faith also. If a person totally gave up their wills to do God's they probably wouldn't be on earth anymore. The Church exists to help it's members do this, it is not a place for those who have done this to meet and discuss how they've all accomplished it.

“We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect; and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker, and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider that this is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment.” -- Joseph Smith Junior

[Nappaljarri]

Currently, as a result of exploring the insights given on this thread in regards to the whole family concept and how it relates to church structure, I'm now stuck at: Do LDS believe in a polygamist God?

I agree with Ram's explanation. Who knows. All I understand is that this earth life (the kind that God's has instituted for us in a family relationship) is a pattern for the eternities. I for one am all for polygamy if or when it comes again, or in the eternities, more women in one house is always better... spread the work around I say :)... But hey, that's just my personal whim....te he he.

[richlittell]

This is as always, a sensitive topic and one I almost feel I have to apologize for, because I know the concept is foreign to most people and is not viewed through the lens of righteousness, nor by the understanding that the purpose of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humankind, to have an increase in his spiritual posterity.

First, we have not received revelation, not even a hint, that God has more than one wife.

However, here are some things to consider.

A male widower is allowed to be sealed to another woman. Assuming he was sealed to the first then he would essentially have two wives in the Celestial Kingdom. We know that our leaders, like Brigham Young, were married and sealed to many wives for all eternity--and we assume this is based on the principle of righteousness.

I would find it hard to imagine that Brigham Young or any other polygamists of our past would have more wives than God, if it is indeed based on principles of righteousness and eternal increase.

Heavenly Father's purpose is to bring to pass the happiness, immortality, and eternal life of humankind, That is his sole and grand purpose. This means bringing forth spirit children, which must take place within a Celestial Family. Having more than one wife means having a greater increase.

I think what makes this concept difficult for many is the fact that it is looked upon and judged by mundane and mortal eyes, as if Celestial godhood is nothing more than the extension of a heathen and natural man throughout the eternities. This approach puts focus on the sexual nature of marriage or the fact that it appears to be a principle of domination of one man over many women, since indeed that is the way of the heathen and natural man. But that is an entirely inaccurate view. The natural man is an enemy to God and hence contrary to all righteousness.

Eternal families are based on righteous principles. Any man who is found worthy to enter into the Celestial Kingdom will be a man who is like Christ, a righteous person.

who lives by Christ's principle that he must serve his wife even as Christ serves the church. I think we can view Heavenly Father in the same way, since it is from Him that such principles of service and righteousness originate, as well as the principle of increase.

Nevertheless, saying Heavenly Father has more than one wife is pure speculation and such knowledge, or lack thereof, is not relevant to our salvation. But for me, it would be the logical conclusion. However, we have received no such revelation and I would be just as happy to learn that he has only one wife as I would be to learn that he has many..

[brfocker]

This has been a topic that I have studied probably more than any. Being the father of a little girl, a little boy and married to a wonderful woman I want to understand the truth about men and women. With the frequency the story is told in our scriptures, in the temple, and in conference talks it must be extremely important. I do not have a full understanding of this but I have found some resources that have helped me understand a little better. One is by Hugh Nibley entitled Patriarchy and Matriarchy. If you want to read it follow the link Hugh W. Nibley: "Patriarchy and Matriarchy"

The other is a book written by Beverly Campbell called Eve and The Choice Made in Eden.

Here are a few quotes from various people on the subject that I find helpfull. This is a topic that we cannot look at through human eyes. The world has poluted our thinking and at first glance many times we come to the wrong conclusions. Women have been degraded and thought of as property for far too long. As many have pointed out we were all created in the image of God, male an female.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism for EVE

“Eve, first woman of earthly creation, companion of Adam and mother and matriarch of the human race, is honored by Latter-day Saints as one of the most important, righteous, and heroic of all the human family. Eve’s supreme gift to mankind, the opportunity of life on this earth, resulted from her choice to become mortal.”

Elder McConkie reminds us that “we cannot doubt that the greatest of all female spirits was the one then chosen and foreordained to be ‘the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh {Mary}.’ (1 Nephi 11:18.) Nor can we do other than suppose that Eve was by [Adam’s] side, rejoicing in her own foreordination to be the first woman, the mother of men, the consort, companion, and friend of mighty Michael. “Christ and Mary, Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah and a host of mighty men and equally glorious women composed that group of the ‘noble and great ones,’ to whom the Lord Jesus said: ‘We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell.’”

President Gordon B. Hinkley said: “Then as his final creation, the crowning of his glorious work, He created woman. I like to regard Eve as His masterpiece after all that had gone before, the final work before He rested from His labors.”

Elder John A. Widtsoe taught: “Such was the problem before our first parents: to remain forever at selfish ease in the Garden of Eden, or to face unselfishly tribulation and death, in bringing to pass the purposes of the Lord for a host of waiting spirit children. They chose the latter. This they did with open eyes and minds as to consequences. The memory of their former estates may have been dimmed, but the gospel had been taught them during their sojourn in the Garden of Eden. They could not have been left in complete ignorance of the purpose of their creation.”

Elder B. H. Roberts “Let it be observed that the tree of knowledge, even though the tree of death, is nowhere called an evil tree, or its fruit bad…. Rather to the contrary: it is included among the trees ‘pleasant to the sight, and good for food,’ in the same verse in which it is named (Genesis 2:9)

Elder Oaks taught us that “her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam fell that men might be’ (2 Nephi 2:25)

President Spencer W. Kimball “Eve was neither a silent partner nor a silenced partner, nor, should Latter-day Saint women be any less.

C. S. Lewis “The homemaker has the ultimate career. All other careers… exist for one purpose only – and that is to support this ultimate career.”

[WANDERER]

Thanks Brfocker that cheered me up immensely. Nibley's rollicking romp through classical literature of "she started it" was hugely entertaining. I lost it at the part when Lady Macbeth got a mention. It's sort of like The Legend of Good Women by Chaucer...except in reverse ; )

In all sincerity...it generally does good to view someone describing the whole thing in grand epic proportions.

On the other hand... it was written in the eighties (30 years...) ....and there are some slight parallels in Nibley's course of thinking.

Edited September 25, 2008 by WANDERER

[Justice]

I may get in trouble for expressing this thought, but...

Over the years, as I have contemplated the differences between men and women, I can't help but get the impression there will be far more women in the Celestial Kingdom than men.

Maybe it's simple math.

:)

And, maybe Outer Darkness is darkness because there are very few women there.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Justice

[WANDERER]

: ) Justice, I just finished reading that the numbers of men will be higher in the life after: birth rates are higher...just not population rates. Though the thought makes me smile (I'd better qualify that one with...not too many women making outer darkness...).

Reading my way through various LDS blogs/Farm articles and some pieces from the author of On Sacred Loneliness/commentaries etc. I might just need to get away from it all for a while....I have twenty balls of wool to knit into a jumper...perhaps my head will be clearer by the time I finish.

Edited September 25, 2008 by WANDERER

[Hemidakota]

I thought to bring up another point about covenant and the Eden epoch. In the Garden, Adam and Eve were made companions through a covenant with G-d. Because Adam and Eve were also given a commandment about the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil most readers of this epoch think that the problem with Adam and Eve was in the partaking of the fruit. I would point out that G-d and always planned for this to happen and Satan knew this as well. This was not the major problem that Adam and Eve had with their covenants.

The major problem as I see this epoch is that Satan with his cleaver twist to things sought to damage the covenant of marriage and companionship between Adam and Eve. The temptation was not just to trick Adam and Eve into taking the fruit but to drive a wedge between their marriage covenant so that they would make the decision on their own, outside of each other’s council. Adam rejected the initial temptation but did not council with Eve – Eve was able to see the wisdom of partaking of the fruit but neglected to consult with her husband.

I believe the scriptures hold great truths but that many are too lazy to look beyond the simple surface (literal meaning) to ponder the deeper meanings and hidden treasures that are only seen and understood through the spirit.

The Traveler

Exactly!!!

[WANDERER]

The only thing I wonder about it is.... why neither of them consulted with God prior to decisionmaking on the whole apple thing. This would seem the most logical thing to do.