john doe Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 A co-worker asked me to post this question to the board and see what we come up with. This co-worker's son happened upon Elder Oaks at The Home Depot the other day and asked him, and Elder Oaks, obviously caught off guard, said he didn't know but he would research it for him. Unfortunately, he left before they could exchange contact inforamtion, so there is no way he would be able to answer it unless he gets up in General Conference and answers it. Or writes an article in the Ensign. The question is this: after death, is it a requirement for a person to be baptized to go to paradise in LDS theology? Does someone who has not been baptized go to Spirit Prison even though they have a testimony of the gospel and Christ until they become baptized by proxy? Or does someone who has a testimony of Christ automatically go to Paradise regardless of whether they have been baptized or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 From Alma Ch. 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. Sounds like they go to Paradise......:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarginOfError Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 I can't recall ever seeing what the decision criteria are for determining who goes where. I know that in some circles it is common to think that those who have received baptism go to paradise and those who have no go to 'spirit prison,' but I know of nothing scriptural that backs this up. The baptism criterion seems suspect to me anyway because you can't uniformly divide the righteous and the wicked over baptism. There are those who haven't received baptism that are more righteous than some that have not received baptism. Such a static model doesn't seem to fit the reality of human complexity very well. I'm content to accept what bytor has posted. The righteous go to paradise, the wicked don't, and there's someone a lot more capable than me making the decision about who goes where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goofball Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 (edited) We actually went over this in a sunday school lesson a few weeks ago. I posted it here http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/13428-ordinances-necessary-spirit-paradise.html because it was a such a hot topic. I need to find the resources but the teacher read out of manual indicating that yes people are placed into SP until their work is done.The Gospel principles manual says this "The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise." You can see it here LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - The Postmortal Spirit World Edited September 23, 2008 by goofball Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 It is improper to attempt to understand the gospel of salvation outside of the understanding of covenants. All things of G-d are done by covenant. The first covenant with G-d is baptism and it is through baptism that all blessings of eternity can be granted. We also know that baptisms without faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ and repentance will not constitute a covenant. In order for a person to become free from the bondage of sin they must: First - have faith in the L-rd Jesus Christ.Second - RepentThird - Be baptized as an ordnance of covenant.Forth - Receive by covenant and the laying on of hands, the Gift of the Holy Ghost. According to LDS doctrine all covenants and ordinances of covenant must be performed - either by Christ or his appointed proxy and the person or an appointed proxy. Without the covenant man must remain in a fallen state – forever. The “Good News” is that Jesus not only has overcome death (the only possible result of a fallen state) but he has provided a way of covenant where by all (not some but all) will be given the covenant to escape the bondage (spirit prison) that awaits all men at their death.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.I suppose it is possible that this thief who hung next to the Savior had previously been baptized, but it's not my impression. It's not proof of anything, but maybe evidence one only needs to accept the Savior. For some reason, that was the impression I had.It makes sense that a person waiting in Paradise could accept ordinances performed for them too. Many who were righteous who had gone on before, without the chance of baptism, were seen in the Kirtland temple during it's dedication. They were there waiting on ordinances to be performed. It seems if they were in Prison they would not be allowed in the temple, so my guess is they were in Paradise, not having had ordinances performed previously.Nothing definitive, just evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goofball Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Justice-Check out the Bible Dictionary about that and it will shed light on that scripture you listed. Pretty good stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Thanks, goofball.However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23: 43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5: 424-25).This brings up another question. Did the Savior mean that He would be going to Paradise and Prison? There are other scriptures that make it sound as if He only went to Paradise and organized a missionary effort, and made it possible for those in Paradise to go to those in Prison. It makes it sound as if He didn't actually go to Prison Himself.So, it could be He didn't actually mean he would be "with" Him, as in in the same place, but maybe just in the Spirit World.That's the funny thing about learning. It seems when you learn something there are more questions than before. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Very interesting........how do they know the thief wasn't ready for Paradise? Just as Christ frankly forgave sins...could he not have meant literally that this man would be in Paradise? I tend to think so...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 This from lds.org on the subject. Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85). Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive "no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted September 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 This from lds.org on the subject.Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. So, the answer is that baptism is required to enter Paradise? That's what it sounds like from that quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goofball Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 I would say that Yes is the answer to your question. We need the ordinances in order to enter Paradise which is why it is SO important to do temple work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 That's the way I understand that quote. That those who have not been baptized wait in spirit prison until their baptism by proxy is done. Then they have the choice to accept it or not. Those that accept enter paradise. Kind of makes you think about the importance of getting work done for those who have already passed. Can you imagine those sitting in spirit prison...waiting, wishing it would get done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted September 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Okay, thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubaloth Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I guess we are just looking at this it to much detail. Most of what I read talked about those that go to Paradise are those that keep the commandments and are obediant to the covenants they have made. That would include baptism. I only found the one quote about it. The other is Joseph Smiths teaching about the theif on the crossAll spirits of men after death return to the spirit world. There, as I understand it, the righteous-meaning those who have been baptized and who have been faithful-are gathered in one part and all the others in another part of the spirit world. This seems to be true from the vision given to President Joseph F. Smith and found in Gospel Doctrine.fn(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 2: 230.) I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek froze which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was—This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, I Peter, 3rd chap., 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc.(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951], 5: 424 - 425.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 The way I understand it is thath you need to receieve those basic ordinances to move from prison to paradise. Regarding Christ's statement about the thief. I believe that anywhere in the spirit world would seem like paradise compared to the Earth. Also an interesting note, What's one ordinances that is a Spirit World ordinance(meaning we do physical ordinances such as baptism here on the Earth. But what is the ordinance we know of that can only be performed in the Spirit world)? Answer: Ressurection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damark09 Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Is baptism and confirmation in our temples sufficient to allow spirits in spirit prison to enter paradise in the spirit world? Someone in priesthood today was telling us that in order to cross the gulf into paradise that all of their temple ordinances must be completed, including their endowment and sealing.KenBased on these scriptures, it would appear that the righteous would be received to spirit paradise.The paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, 2 Ne. 9:13The spirits of the righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, Alma 40:11–12Christ ministered to the righteous spirits in paradise, D&C 138Under the same logic of the Priesthood lesson you received, would Mother Teresa be sent to spirit prison? I wouldn’t think so......quote from askgramps.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have never thought of it as 2 sperate places as much as 2 different states of being. The spirit world is one big waiting room, some are in a state of paradise and some are in a state of prision. "Prision" is a halting of progression. If I need something to move forward (like baptism) but I am dependant on someone else to provide it (proxy baptism) then I would feel imprisioned. After the ordinances are complete then one can progress as they chose, agency is restored which is a state of paridise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfchase Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I find it extremely difficult to believe that elder Oaks would not know the answer to the OP. It is very clearly taught in Gospel Essentials class which is the most basic adult class in the church that all children under the age of 8 are inheritors of the Celestial Kingdom and no baptism is needed for them, but all over the age of 8 MUST be baptized to enter Paradise. Spirit Prison is a waiting place for both the good and honorable of the earth as well as the evil. Here they are all taught the saving ordinances of the gospel and have their agency to accept or reject it. They must wait for that baptism to be performed by proxy and if they accept that baptism they then go to paradise.As to the thief on the cross and whether Christ went to spirit prison: Christ did not actually go to prison but to Paradise where he called forth his servants the prophets and commissioned them to teach those in prison. The thief not having received the gospel previously went to prison to await being taught and proxy Baptism.Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damark09 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Another qoute from askgramps QUESTIONGramps,What are your thoughts about what allows a person to go from spirit prison to paradise? Does it require an ordinance like baptism or is it based only on the person’s accepting the atonement?ANSWERThe scriptures tell us that it is faith in Christ (and His atonement) that frees us from the shackles of sin and despair in mortality. I see no reason for it to be any different in the spirit world.Baptism is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God in both places but I think that Spirit Paradise, while nice, isn’t the Kingdom of God. I think it the place were the righteous have gathered as they wait and work.Alma’s experience when he converts also appears to run along these lines: (Alma 36:18-20)18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!Now is is likely that Alma had already been baptized before this happened. If not, then it seems logical that he would have quickly sought it out. I see no reason for the same to not be happening in the spirit world. When a spirit uses faith to break the chains of sin and if an authoritative baptism awaits them, they would quickly accept it and move forward. If one does not, then getting one would become their focus. They would be forced to wait patiently on the Lord until it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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