one God


Recommended Posts

Ceeboo, are you trying to foist yourself onto the rest of us, or just on Bytor? ;)

I've found words to be very stimulating, but very dangerous. An old Benny Hill comedy routine has a young man and woman quietly talking, and she says, "what is this thing called, love?"

The producer of the film they are making comes storming in and says, "No, no, NO! It isn't 'what is this thing called, love?' It is: 'what is this thing called love?'"

The intonation of a single comma can make it entirely different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 176
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Bytor,

If you need any help with these LDS people, just let me know and I will jump in.:lol:

God bless,

Carl ( a monotheistic trinitarian ):)

Ceeboo.........I am feeling pretty bruised and battered right now.....caught a right cross from Carol and then a uppercut from Rameumpton...:lol: I am not sure it would be fair to the others if we teamed up......:cool::lol:

-Bytor ( an insenstitive, monotheistic polytheist Mormon-Christian who enjoys the taste of his foot :lol:;))

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

Ceeboo, are you trying to foist yourself onto the rest of us, or just on Bytor? ;)

I've found words to be very stimulating, but very dangerous. An old Benny Hill comedy routine has a young man and woman quietly talking, and she says, "what is this thing called, love?"

Hi Ram,

Just bytor :):)

I would give him an answer to his " still hasn't been answered " but now I am VERY CAUTIOUS of any words that may come across as " explosive " or " offensive " to someone elses " Faith tradition " :lol::lol::lol:

Interesting offering about the " words "

I saw one once as to how different an emphasis on a word can have such different meaning. I thought it was pretty neat and probably is exactly why there are " non intended" issues using this method of communication.

Goes like this

( I ) didn't say he killed that man

I didn't say ( HE ) killed that man

I didn't say he ( KILLED ) that man

I didn't say he killed ( THAT ) man

Peace,

Carl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

-Bytor ( an insenstitive, monotheistic polytheist Mormon-Christian who enjoys the taste of his foot :lol:;))

SERIOUSLY LAUGHING OUT LOUD :lol::lol::lol::lol:

THAT MY FRIEND BYTOR, WAS INDEED PRICELESS:):)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do millions accept the doctrine of the Trinity because it is monotheistic or is it because they have been taught that they should believe it? I mean, how do you know that the Trinity is true and not just a very old misunderstanding of the Godhead foisted on Christians through out the past centuries?

Hi bytor, I'll have to answer you when I get home. I need to do some fancy stuff and my computer at work makes a mess of everything. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do millions accept the doctrine of the Trinity because it is monotheistic or is it because they have been taught that they should believe it? I mean, how do you know that the Trinity is true and not just a very old misunderstanding of the Godhead foisted on Christians through out the past centuries? :confused:

Deuteronomy 6:

3 ¶ Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Believing and understanding that God is one is central to the Christian faith. The verses above testify to that. The trinity doctrine says there is one God in three persons and I believe it with all my heart. I believe that scripture has shown this to be true. The realization for me, that Jesus was and is God, was the catalyst to my conversion. I have genuine faith that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - they are one God.

M.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deuteronomy 6:

3 ¶ Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Believing and understanding that God is one is central to the Christian faith. The verses above testify to that. The trinity doctrine says there is one God in three persons and I believe it with all my heart. I believe that scripture has shown this to be true. The realization for me, that Jesus was and is God, was the catalyst to my conversion. I have genuine faith that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - they are one God.

M.

Maureen.......thanks for the thoughtful response:) I too believe that their is one God. God the Father.....Jesus Christ.....and the Holy Ghost.....they are one God.

How are they one?

From John Ch. 17

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

bytor,

Eph 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

........ so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. [NIV]

When LDS talk about the oneness of God being "one of purposes" that seems to me to not being saying anything particularly special about the unity. "the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" is what we are being prepared for (or should be), it is hard for me to beleive that the persons of God are less united with one another then what we should be.

"whole measure of the fullness" says to me that we should be taking on the nature of Christ, not just the "purposes of Christ". We should be producing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22-23) not just the purposes of the Holy Spirit.

When we know the Son, we should know not just the purposes of Father but the heart of the Father; His nature and character are best revealed through Christ and that is what we should be being transformed into the likeness of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When LDS talk about the oneness of God being "one of purposes" that seems to me to not being saying anything particularly special about the unity. "the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" is what we are being prepared for (or should be), it is hard for me to beleive that the persons of God are less united with one another then what we should be.

I am not sure I follow you........ our understanding of the nature of the Godhead is thus: God the Father.......who is literally our Father and also the Father of Jesus Christ........Jesus Christ....and the Holy Ghost. They are one God. One in every sense......except substance. They are as individual as you and I..... Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone as does Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit.

"whole measure of the fullness" says to me that we should be taking on the nature of Christ, not just the "purposes of Christ". We should be producing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22-23) not just the purposes of the Holy Spirit.

Yes......as the primary song goes..."I am trying to be like Jesus...."

When we know the Son, we should know not just the purposes of Father but the heart of the Father; His nature and character are best revealed through Christ and that is what we should be being transformed into the likeness of.

Absolutely......well said...:) I think perhaps you do not really understand our beliefs. Understanding our relationship with God and the plan of salvation helps one to better understand why we believe the way we do.....and also the fact that we believe that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ.....two seperate and distinct beings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LDS see Jesus as a spirit child of God the Father.

I could never believe this. I believe that before the beginning, God existed as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They have always been together before "the beginning". They have been a tri-unity from eternity to eternity. God has always existed as God; all three persons of the Godhead have always existed together, from before time. No person of the Godhead has ever been created in any form; whether that might be a spirit child, or an intelligence. God (Father, Son, HS) is the creator, God (Father, Son, HS) is Supreme.

This is what I believe.

M.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

LDS see Jesus as a spirit child of God the Father.

I could never believe this. I believe that before the beginning, God existed as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They have always been together before "the beginning". They have been a tri-unity from eternity to eternity. God has always existed as God; all three persons of the Godhead have always existed together, from before time. No person of the Godhead has ever been created in any form; whether that might be a spirit child, or an intelligence. God (Father, Son, HS) is the creator, God (Father, Son, HS) is Supreme.

This is what I believe.

M.

Hi Maureen,

Yuppers, that would be my belief as well :):):)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LDS see Jesus as a spirit child of God the Father.

I could never believe this. I believe that before the beginning, God existed as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They have always been together before "the beginning". They have been a tri-unity from eternity to eternity. God has always existed as God; all three persons of the Godhead have always existed together, from before time. No person of the Godhead has ever been created in any form; whether that might be a spirit child, or an intelligence. God (Father, Son, HS) is the creator, God (Father, Son, HS) is Supreme.

This is what I believe.

M.

May I ask some respectful questions........:) ?

And just for clarification....we believe that Jesus Christ, then Jehova, was the first borne of the Father in the pre-existence and was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. Literally, Christ is our elder brother.

1. Who was Christ praying to in the Garden of Gethsemenee? Was it himself? While hanging on the cross, why did he ask why God had forsaken him? What does the prayer in John Ch. 17 mean to you?

2. Is it your belief that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of one substance? If so why was Jesus resurected to a fleshly body and not just a Spirit?

3. What do you believe your relationship to God is..... Father and child or just Creator and created? Also what are your views regarding why we are here? Or perhap a better question.......where did you come from.....why are you here....and where are you going when you die?

Thanks in advance for your responses......I hope you won't think my questions rude or disrespectful :) that is not my intent. I am just trying to understand. I once believed as you expressed....former Baptist.....but only because I was taught that it was so. Now I have Spiritual witness and confirmation of what I now believe to be true.

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bytor,

Your post 5 in this tread....

The Godhead is.......God the Father......Jesus Christ his only begotten and the Holy Ghost...and they are One God. One in prupose.....not substance. There purpose? "To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Note you used "one in purpose". (Many LDS use that phrase) In my mind mobs are one in purpose, I just think there must be a better way of describing the unity of God than "purpose" (which the persons do share), they have far more unity than a mere commanility of purpose. To be eternal God, which (as far as I can tell) LDS affirm of all 3 persons, surely means they all share whatever it is that makes something an "eternal God". Are you purposing that all that is needed to acheive "eternal divinity" is to be one in purpose. I perceive in scripture a shared level of love, holiness, communion and purposes. However purposes is only one element of their unity, not the pinnacle or sum.

As for the substance, I think it needs refining. If you mean "substance" as the average person would understand it. Then it merely means that the things share the basic make up. I could say two bars of soap are of the same substance. Ice and water are of the same substance. In that sense the Father and Son are surely the same substance. Infact IMHO what really delineates LDS from other Christians is that you veiw us humans as being the same substance as God as well.

When Christians affirmed that the Son in His humanity is of one substance with us, it was surely meant that His incarnate being shared with us all the properites that make us human.

What precisely do you mean by "substance"? What stops you from saying the Father and Son are of the same substance?

(Please remember that it was decided very early on by the trinitarians that the Father was not crucified with the Son. The Son alone was incarnate, He alone was crucified and resurrected.)

Maureen,

In theory (at least some) LDS do from what I can understand believe that Jesus was eternal God. (The beggining of the BOM affirms this) Since time as we know it began at creation, there was no time as we know it before creation. Therefore unlike historical Arian's they would not believe that there was "a time when the Son was not".

The orthodox creeds hold that the Son was begotten before time or the beginning of the universe. What does it mean for God to beget God? This comes back to the LDS having a very different veiw of God the Father then what traditional Christians do. We don't create children, we beget them. If God is like us, then in LDS veiws he would act like us. We view God as of different substance to us and therefore do not see it as meaning something like the LDS.

They whole thing is at the extremes of our mental abilities, how does the Father beget the Son outside of time? Does God have his own time continuum outside of our time dimension? I presume you probably percieve that before time was a single time point, LDS have a more creative solution.

Looking at the Bible, we are left with the bearest sketches of this stuff, God clearly did not beleive we really needed to understand this stuff and left it as a mystery. The LDS believe that God turned up again and gave further information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

May I ask some respectful questions........:) ?

And just for clarification....we believe that Jesus Christ, then Jehova, was the first borne of the Father in the pre-existence and was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. Literally, Christ is our elder brother.

1. Who was Christ praying to in the Garden of Gethsemenee? Was it himself? While hanging on the cross, why did he ask why God had forsaken him? What does the prayer in John Ch. 17 mean to you?

2. Is it your belief that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of one substance? If so why was Jesus resurected to a fleshly body and not just a Spirit?

3. What do you believe your relationship to God is..... Father and child or just Creator and created? Also what are your views regarding why we are here? .

Hello my dear friend bytor,

I am not Maureen :), But I thought I would give you my thoughts, if I may

1. Christ was praying to his Father. " was it himself "

AS the second person of the blessed trinity, he was praying to the first person of the blessed trinity ON OUR behalf.

" While on cross why did he ask why God had forsaken him "

AHHHH Mr. Bytor ( The 534,000 dollar question ) He is petitioning God, on our behalf, and he was referencing psalm 22 ( prayer of an innocent person from OT ) He is also not in distress himself, he ( Jesus ) is praying for OUR MERCY ( psalm 22 ) to God.

2.NO absolutly not one substance ( There is ONE God with three persons , Father, Son, And Holy Spirit and EACH IS EQUAL TO THE OTHER . " Why resurrected to fleshly body " Because he was redeeming all of humanity ( flesh bodies ).

3." Relationship to God " Father and child, Jesus said " we are like chicks under a mother hens wings in relation to God ". We are here to love and serve God and do HIS will for us on earth.

God bless,

Carl

Edited by ceeboo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Shadowhunter,

I've grappled with this question as well in the past. I have members of my family who are not in the LDS church and others who are. Those who are not in the LDS church feel that it is blasphemy to say there is more than one God, but there are numerous occasions in the scriptures that show there is more than one God. For example, in Genesis it says "let us make man in our image."

A talk by an LDS General Authority, Jeffery R Holland gave a very good talk that has helped me with learning about the nature of God and why it is important. Here's a site with the talk "The Grandeur of God" Favorite General Conference Talks by Mormon Prophets Grace for Grace

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In his first book, Exploring Mormon Thought, The Attributes of God, Blake Ostler discusses how the Bible and philosophy strongly suggest that Father and Son are physically separate beings. He spends quite a few pages explaining the one-ness of the Godhead. Many members use "one in purpose", as that is what Elder Bruce R. McConkie often used.

Ostler explains it as a very intense unity in the Godhead. They are bound by a perfect love, wherein they seek to remain in a perfect loving relationship with each other. It would seem that the whole is bigger and better than the sum of the parts in this instance.

As we seek to become one with God, we also are offered such a loving and intimate relationship with the Godhead. John 17 becomes understandable, when Jesus intercedes for his disciples, praying that they may be one with each other and with him, as Jesus is one with the Father.

Paul told us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14). And LDS doctrine teaches us that God's "work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39). This tells me that God's work is not only important to us, but necessary to HIM as well. It is HIS glory that we are talking about. When His children are exalted and become as He is, receiving the "high calling of God", He receives greater glory. His dominions are expanded as He has family members exalted that can share in that great and intimate One-ness that he now shares with Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

While I appreciate the ideas on the Trinity that are shared with us, to me they pale in comparison to the promises revealed to us in modern times of the relationship we can have with God in the next life. While many look forward to playing harps and singing praises all day long to God (and there's nothing wrong or bad with that view, as LDS consider it an honorable Terrestrial heaven experience), I look forward with hope to the greater glory of being One with the Godhead, and sharing in that intense and amazing love and relationship with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WARNING: The comments expressed here are to help the reader understand how Bytor and others came to our understandings of the nature of God and are not intended to slight or offend or diminish the sacred beliefs of others :):):)

Before I became a member of the LDS church I was a Baptist....Southern Baptist. I was taught about the trinity and I was told that "we couldn't understand it, but we had to believe it". I struggled with how we could be created in the image of God....but yet we didn't seem to be anything like him. We prayed to him as our Father....but he didn't seem like my Father......at least not in the sense that I now view him. Why did we have bodies of flesh and bone if God is a spirit? I just didn't get it. I never understood how God could be in Heaven and on earth at the same time. All of the scriptures where Christ is praying to his Father or referring to his Father just made me more confused. I was also taught that if you didn't accept Jesus Christ you would go to hell.....spend eternity in a literal burning hell. But if you did accept him....you were "saved" and would go to heaven because of the "grace" of Jesus Christ. Yet, if you didn't hear about Jesus before you died...well thats just too bad....especially for your children who died before they could accept him. I would ask....well why are we here and what did I do to deserve to burn in hell......just because I was born? Some vague answers would follow about Adam and Eve and some scriptures from Romans....etc. But I still didn't get it....so if Mother Theresa or some other saintly sole didn't accept Jesus Christ and get saved.......they burn for eternity? Yet some rapist, murderer could confess to accept Christ on his death bed and he was Heaven bound...huh :confused: Then I began to wonder...why are there so many different Churches.....and what about the Catholic Church? I mean they were basically the first church...right? I began to think...well the Baptists can't be right...I mean they have only been around since....I'm not sure...the 1700's? Then I learned that all of the Protestant denominations were "breakaways" from the Catholic Church. Well, why would God.....be the author of so much confusion....I mean if it were that easy to return to God or go to heaven......and I didn't have a clue what that meant......by just accepting Christ and him crucified.....then why so many differing beliefs. And if the Catholics were the first....wouldn't that mean they were right or at least as close to right as you could get? And if so....wouldn't that necesarily make everyone else wrong??? It seemed to me that the Protestants kind of watered everything down....yet the Catholics still believed in the trinity and I just didn't understand why anyone...including myself......could believe in a God as described by the Creeds...he seemed so impersonal to me and it just didn't square with the scriptures.

Then I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints :) :cool: It seemed like all my worries were confirmed and my questions were answered......not just by people...but by something I had never experienced....the Holy Spirit. We are son and daughters of a loving Father in Heaven and the families in which we live are a glimpse of the eternal nature of God's plan. We are literally created in his express image and God is not the author of the confusion that exists and existed in my view of all things religious.

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

Those who are not in the LDS church feel that it is blasphemy to say there is more than one God, but there are numerous occasions in the scriptures that show there is more than one God. For example, in Genesis it says "let us make man in our image."

Hi ama49,

To offer a different perspective, if I may.:)

Genesis "let us make man in our image " is speaking about the Trinity ( God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ) BUT they are still ONE God in three persons. That is exactly why he uses the plural " us " in the quote.

And yes, I am sorry if this offends you, But I do think it is blasphemy to believe in more than ONE God.:)

God bless,

Carl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello my dear friend bytor,

I am not Maureen :), But I thought I would give you my thoughts, if I may

1. Christ was praying to his Father. " was it himself "

AS the second person of the blessed trinity, he was praying to the first person of the blessed trinity ON OUR behalf.

" While on cross why did he ask why God had forsaken him "

AHHHH Mr. Bytor ( The 534,000 dollar question ) He is petitioning God, on our behalf, and he was referencing psalm 22 ( prayer of an innocent person from OT ) He is also not in distress himself, he ( Jesus ) is praying for OUR MERCY ( psalm 22 ) to God.

2.NO absolutly not one substance ( There is ONE God with three persons , Father, Son, And Holy Spirit and EACH IS EQUAL TO THE OTHER . " Why resurrected to fleshly body " Because he was redeeming all of humanity ( flesh bodies ).

3." Relationship to God " Father and child, Jesus said " we are like chicks under a mother hens wings in relation to God ". We are here to love and serve God and do HIS will for us on earth.

God bless,

Carl

Thanks for the answers, Carl. The problem for us LDS, is we need to have things sound logical to us. The LDS religion is practical. It makes sense that when Stephen looks up into heaven and sees Jesus standing on the right hand of God, that there are obviously two separate beings being viewed. Or that a resurrected Jesus must somehow stow his physical resurrected body once he "returns" to the Trinity.

The reality is, the Trinity is not supposed to make sense. It is a mystery. It is described as "incomprehensible" and "unknowable" in that we really cannot fully understand how 3 persons can make up one God. That many Trinitarians tend to use modalistic methods to describe the Trinity is evidence that even many (if not all) Trinitarians fail to comprehend that which they believe. And that's how it is designed.

While LDS can logically show how the Godhead exists, and that three separate personages (versus persons) make up the Trinity/Godhead; the traditional Trinity is described in the very creeds as incomprehensible and a mystery - so these anthropomorphic references in the Bible simply are weak attempts to describe an unknowable God.

Being such, without God coming down (or His Spirit) and giving us a confirmation on one side of the issue or the other, BOTH Godhead and Trinity can be explained competently from within the pages of the Holy Writ.

There are beginning to be, in fact, a few traditional Christian scholars who are beginning to accept the idea of a "social Trinity" - akin to what the LDS believe. But it is still in the vast minority. Still, I hope the day will come when we can all agree on the things we agree upon, and kindly disagree on the rest. And I hope we can all view each other as Christian brothers and sisters who are sincerely seeking Jesus' grace and heaven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ceeboo

WARNING: The comments expressed here are to help the reader understand how Bytor and others came to our understandings of the nature of God and are not intended to slight or offend or diminish the sacred beliefs of others :):):)

Bytor,

A Great disclaimer :) ( will certainly prevet any upper cuts IMHO:):))

God bless,

Carl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share