one God

[Islander]

There are lots of times when Jesus prays to his father in heaven, if he himself " is God " then he must have been praying to a higher god, which i do not believe to be the case. He was praying to our heavenly father who sent him as a messenger to us all to fulfill the Fathers word.

In Luke 22:42 Christ prays in the Garden for, not his will to be done, but the Father's.

There is loads of instances where Jesus tells us to pray to our father in heaven.

To myself and others it is a simple thing, not written to confuse us, but to guide the simplest of mankind, and not just for the learned but also for the unlearned.

Jesus was not sent to confuse us, his work is the work of his father in heaven.

I know there will be those among you reading this that will be searching to contradict what i have written, and i am sure you will find something lol, i dont mind at all, but dont flame me for writing from the heart please lol.

These are " my own views " and nothing to do with what my church has taught me, but seems pretty logical me thinks.

Amen to that.

"God" is a title rather than a name. I pointed to the fact that unfortunately we lack language to express the meaning of the Trinity and the nature of God. Elohim is masculine plural. And it is there in black and white and we can either try to fit that into some convoluted, ethereal man-made doctrine about the nature of God or we can simply and transparently read the scriptures and listen to the testimony of prophets.

[mnn727]

Please give and LDS.org link or similar for that. WOW! -and I don't mean a WoW (Words of Wisdom) WOW either.

Definately not than the Catholic view of God.

-Carol

I doubt you'll find anything official, but I invite all LDS here to comment whether its a valid comparison.

[August]

We LDS believe 'God' is an 'office' or 'Title' similar to our 'First Presidency'

Could you explain this a little more? I kinda see where you're coming from, knowing what I know about LDS beliefs, but how do you relate to an "office?" Do you feel a personal realationship with God is important? And do you believe that God has always been made up of the same 3 people?

[mnn727]

Could you explain this a little more? I kinda see where you're coming from, knowing what I know about LDS beliefs, but how do you relate to an "office?" Do you feel a personal realationship with God is important? And do you believe that God has always been made up of the same 3 people?

1.) How do I relate to an 'office'? You respect the office and relate to the members of the office - in this case the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2.) Personal relationship -- that really depends on how you define a personal relationship. I define it as looking to Christ as my example of how to try to live my life and trying to become like Him (more Christ-like),being grateful for His atoning sacrifice on my (our) behalf, on trying to follow His teachings and commands, I also define it as worshipping God the Father and living my life to be worthy of the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost, so my answer would be yes.

3.) Do I believe that God (talking about the office or the Godhead) has always been made up of the same 3 people? Yes

Edited October 11, 2008 by mnn727

[Hemidakota]

A pattern of which is celestial.

[abqfriend]

In the "office" concept you mention-is God the Father/ President and Jesus and the Holy Spirit as -Counselors?

-Is Jesus and the Holy Spirit dependent or of lesser degree than God the Father/ president?

In the LDS-Church are all 3 equal in power and authority?-or is one superior to the other two?

-in the Trinity-all 3 are equal-so we would have 3 Presidents and no counselors-using that anaolgy-or is my analogy incorrect? We us the theological term "co-equal."

1.) How do I relate to an 'office'? You respect the office and relate to the members of the office - in this case the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2.) Personal relationship -- that really depends on how you define a personal relationship. I define it as looking to Christ as my example of how to try to live my life and trying to become like Him (more Christ-like),being grateful for His atoning sacrifice on my (our) behalf, on trying to follow His teachings and commands, I also define it as worshipping God the Father and living my life to be worthy of the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost, so my answer would be yes.

3.) Do I believe that God (talking about the office or the Godhead) has always been made up of the same 3 people? Yes

[mnn727]

I would not call them counselors, but yes, God the Father is the Highest and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, while equal in all aspects are subordinant . -- tough concept to explain. These verses may help:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 14: 26 But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So if the Father is sending them, they must do what the Father asks them to do and are thus subordinant to Him.

Speaking of Jesus: Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:

There are about 20 other Biblical references to God the Father as the Highest

-Is Jesus and the Holy Spirit dependent or of lesser degree than God the Father/ president?

Yes and no

In the LDS-Church are all 3 equal in power and authority?

Yes

-or is one superior to the other two?

In the fact that He was first, yes. In power and authority, no. They are united in :will, desire, power, authority, grace, etc. nevertheless the Father is the Highest or in LDS terms "the Father presides".

Not sure theres an RCC equivilent but let me try (and perhaps fail miserably). If the ArchBishop, the Bishop and the Parish Priest all show up at the Same Church for Mass, who would be presiding (or in charge?) IF the answer is the ArchBishop, does that take anything away from the Bishop and the Parish Priest? is their authority any less because he is there?

Jesus IS the Son of God, that's not a saying, he is a son just like I am my fathers son.

Edited October 11, 2008 by mnn727

[Guest ceeboo]

1.)

3.) Do I believe that God (talking about the office or the Godhead) has always been made up of the same 3 people? Yes

Hi mnn,

How does this jive with LDS teaching If indeed God was once a man like us and became an exalted man.

Your answer:

" Yes, God ( Godhead ) has ALWAYS been made up of the same three people"

Thanks,

Carl

[jimuk]

Why oh why can people not read the bible as it is, as said before, it is not there to confuse us and to say, "this is what it says but i think it means something else".

The Holy Ghost testifies to me that Jesus was not talking to himself when he was praying, but you dont need The spirit for this simple conclusion surely.

Come on lets be logical here folks, why would you think Jesus was talking to himself, what do you see in the scriptures that would make you even think this is so.

We have the Power of the Holy Ghost, we know who Jesus is and we know about our heavenly father, do you not think this is a great thing, what am i saying to you that sounds so far fetched.

I keep it simple, no having to work anything out.

Let me be as straight forward as i can.

There is "Nobody" walking on this gods earth today that tells us what, or who to worship, we worship our heavenly father because of the Holy ghost who is sent by our Heavenly father to guide us home, not sent by anyone else, not sent by man, but sent by god himself to Bare witness that our heavenly father is the almighty god mentioned in the old testament, and the New testament. We know these things, we cannot deny them, if we did the holy ghost would leave us, not knowing which way to turn.

We also have our prophets, who do a terribly mighty work for god, They guide us through revelation from our father, in our daily search to be Christlike, and thats all we strive for, to be as much like our Brother Jesus as we possibly can, for we know this makes heavenly father so so happy.

How plain is that, to be as close to Jesus as we possibly can

I feel that some here would begrudge us having the holy ghost with us, but i say to you that you ALL have been privileged to this witness, and you will continue to be visited by him if you strive to do gods will, LDS or not.

Now imagine if you could have this spirit guiding you throughout your daily life continually, what a wonderful god given Blessing.

I am not a great member of the church, there are Millions more worthy members than myself, and lots of them are members of these here forums, and i love them all, i also love all of you non LDS members of this forum, i honestly do, and i know it is because of the spirit.

I do not feel worthy of the Holy spirit, "ever", but for Some reason My Father allows him to stay, and i am Sooo thankful for this blessing, i know that the spirit still guides me through my day, i know this without any doubt.

I am sorry if i have wandered off topic (again lol) but i speak as and when i am prompted.

I have written these things for the investigators reading in this thread to let them know what wonderful blessings await them, and to listen to their hearts whilst investigating.

[abqfriend]

Yes-A priest submits himself to his Bishop and the Church at his ordination.

At his ordination-the priest lays flat on the floor before the Bishop.

The priest is at the bidding and total submission to his Bishop and the Church.

An Archbishop-has only some extraordinary authority used in an emergency situation-like the sudden death of a Bishop-and no one in charge of a given area for a particilar time.

An Arch-Bishop as the word states-is a Bishop.

The Pope's other title is Bishop of Rome.

At any Mass-even "celebrated by the Bishop, Priests are also asked to "con-celebrate" or take part in that same mass. As there is usually one leader of the service-that is usually the bishop if present.

-Carol

I would not call them counselors, but yes, God the Father is the Highest and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, while equal in all aspects are subordinant . -- tough concept to explain.Not sure theres an RCC equivilent but let me try (and perhaps fail miserably). If the ArchBishop, the Bishop and the Parish Priest all show up at the Same Church for Mass, who would be presiding (or in charge?) IF the answer is the ArchBishop, does that take anything away from the Bishop and the Parish Priest? is their authority any less because he is there?

Jesus IS the Son of God, that's not a saying, he is a son just like I am my fathers son.

[Islander]

Hi mnn,

How does this jive with LDS teaching If indeed God was once a man like us and became an exalted man.

Your answer:

" Yes, God ( Godhead ) has ALWAYS been made up of the same three people"

Thanks,

Carl

We keep falling into the linguistic trap. Trying to express extremely abstract concepts extracted from the Hebrew using anthropomorphic and three dimensional English language is a practical impossibility.

Infinitive + 1000,000 = infinitive. When did the entity we call God the Father had or existed in humanoid form we have no idea. We can not imagine or describe what does not exist in our universe until we can visualize it somehow. We can not express verbally or mathematically the concept of the very beginning of time because in fact it can not be quantified. It was always there.

In 1940 the term "flaying saucer" was coined. We later developed terms like shuttle, space craft and others to describe a vehicle that travels into space. But before that, we could ONLY express ourselves linguistically in very simple terms like "flying dish" and things of that nature.

I submit that the same way some are willing to attribute the Trinity to a mystery to explain it according to the Nicene Treaty, they should be willing to have faith that prophets have seen Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. In time God will reveal further to them in that area. Miracles, revelation and learning of the things of God are always preceded by faith, not the other way around.

[abqfriend]

I have no problem of Jesus at the right hand of His Father-I just see Them as co-equal in all respects.

I dont think the BoM was in existence at the time of the Nicene Creed-for that matter neither was the King James Bible.

Some Apparitions/Appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary- (Our Lady of Lourdes, Fantima, Medjugorje,etc) with some prophesy of the Blessed Virgin Mary as given at those apparitions- are accepted by many in the Catholic Church-but to believe such prophesies-even attributed to the Blessed Virgin Mary-The Mother of God-in the Catholic understanding of that term-are not a requirement of our faith.

-Carol

We keep falling into the linguistic trap. Trying to express extremely abstract concepts extracted from the Hebrew using anthropomorphic and three dimensional English language is a practical impossibility.

I submit that the same way some are willing to attribute the Trinity to a mystery to explain it according to the Nicene Treaty, they should be willing to have faith that prophets have seen Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. In time God will reveal further to them in that area. Miracles, revelation and learning of the things of God are always preceded by faith, not the other way around.

[Maureen]

I have been searching the internet to see where Jesus says that he is god but can find no direct evidence of him ever refering to himself as "God"...

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

M.

[mnn727]

Hi mnn,

How does this jive with LDS teaching If indeed God was once a man like us and became an exalted man.

While many LDS believe that He was once a man like us, its non-doctrinal. That He is a man yes, but like us? Jesus was a man also, was He like us? I don't think anyone would make that claim.

Can you find quotes from people saying that? yes, very easily. I can think of 3 or 4 quotes right off the top of my head

Can you find doctrine declaring that he was a man like us? No

President Hinckley rightly said, we don't know much about that and we don't teach that.

Edited October 11, 2008 by mnn727
clairity

[AnthonyB]

Why oh why can people not read the bible as it is, as said before, it is not there to confuse us and to say, "this is what it says but i think it means something else".

The Holy Ghost testifies to me that Jesus was not talking to himself when he was praying, but you dont need The spirit for this simple conclusion surely.

Come on lets be logical here folks, why would you think Jesus was talking to himself, what do you see in the scriptures that would make you even think this is so.

jimuk,

I just want to reassure you that trinitarians do believe that Jesus was talking to His Father and not to Himself. (Well all the ones who responded to my questions on the this board would agree with that and that was 100%)

We just take it, that when God revealed that there is one God in the Bible and the Book of Mormon He meant simply that. Not three gods somehow being one God. Is there a single standard works reference to their being three Gods not one?

[mnn727]

Is there a single standard works reference to their being three Gods not one?

Like I said about 15 pages back, its all semantics.

Is the Father God?

Is Jesus God?

Is the Holy Ghost God?

Is that 3 Gods or 1 God? Its all semantics and makes no difference at all to anyones salvation.

[Guest ceeboo]

While many LDS believe that He was once a man like us, its non-doctrinal. That He is a man yes, but like us? Jesus was a man also, was He like us? I don't think anyone would make that claim.

Can you find quotes from people saying that? yes, very easily. I can think of 3 or 4 quotes right off the top of my head

Can you find doctrine declaring that he was a man like us? No

President Hinckley rightly said, we don't know much about that and we don't teach that.

Hi again mnn,

Thanks for the reply :)

I don't know how you can say " pres Hinckley is right " with such confidene when JS seems to certainly contradict this :confused:

At any rate, I do appreciate your perspective :)

God bless,

Carl

[mnn727]

I don't know how you can say " pres Hinckley is right " with such confidene when JS seems to certainly contradict this :confused:

I don;t elieve JS does contradict this, I am assuming you are talking about the King Follet discourse. I see no contradiction at all.

I see people reading into it things that are just not there.

TO assume that God the Father was a sinful man somewhere just like we currently are, is to ignore the fact that Jesus was an exalted man without being sinful like us. No where does JS say the God was a sinful man like us. Perhaps he was, but thats not doctrinal and we know nothing about it, just like President Hinckley said.

[bytor2112]

While many LDS believe that He was once a man like us, its non-doctrinal. That He is a man yes, but like us? Jesus was a man also, was He like us? I don't think anyone would make that claim.

Can you find quotes from people saying that? yes, very easily. I can think of 3 or 4 quotes right off the top of my head

Can you find doctrine declaring that he was a man like us? No

President Hinckley rightly said, we don't know much about that and we don't teach that.

You can find quotes from Teachings of Joseph Smith........but he makes it clear that God was a man like us and dwelt on an Earth....like Jesus Christ. I am with you though...he wasn't a man like me...like Christ, yes.

[AnthonyB]

Like I said about 15 pages back, its all semantics.

Is the Father God?

Is Jesus God?

Is the Holy Ghost God?

Is that 3 Gods or 1 God? Its all semantics and makes no difference at all to anyones salvation.

mnn,

(I could start of with the old line that your not being "anti-semantic" are you.)

God numerous times says He is 1 God, He never says He is 3 gods. What God declares of himself I deem important. I think people can be saved with incorrect ideas about God. However I think those incorrect ideas will effect people's world view considerably, causing them considerable problems over time. The beliefs individuals hold not only effect them but has a flow on effect to the people around them and society as a whole.

[jimuk]

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

M.

Hi there Maureen,

In your first quote, i personally read it that the "I AM" is just that, it is Heavenly father speaking to Moses, nothing more. (heavenly father/God has sent me unto you)

Second quote, Jesus is telling the Jews that "I AM" (being heavenly father/God) was around before Abraham.

Sorry if this sounds to simplistic, i am not a learned person, i can only dictate what the spirit would have me say, and as i have already said, the scriptures are for the learned and the unlearned.

I would like church members if possible to tell me if i am wrong, i will not mind, i have learned so much from members whilst reading posts on these forums.

Thank you

[mnn727]

You can find quotes from Teachings of Joseph Smith........but he makes it clear that God was a man like us and dwelt on an Earth....like Jesus Christ. I am with you though...he wasn't a man like me...like Christ, yes.

I teach from the JS manual, as I said and as you agreed, nowhere does anyone say He was a sinful man like us. Christ was a man, but not sinful, perhaps God was the same. As Pres Hinckley said and I posted, "We just don't know that much about it".

[Hemidakota]

I teach from the JS manual, as I said and as you agreed, nowhere does anyone say He was a sinful man like us. Christ was a man, but not sinful, perhaps God was the same. As Pres Hinckley said and I posted, "We just don't know that much about it".

President Hinckley was addressing as a church but not as individuals who some, may be entitled to receive these truths that are necessary for their own salvation or edification. Though, if received, cannot address this as doctrine for the church since the member is not the mouthpiece of the Savior.

Didn't the Savior stated, He hasn't done anything here that His Father has done already?

[Hemidakota]

Hi there Maureen,

In your first quote, i personally read it that the "I AM" is just that, it is Heavenly father speaking to Moses, nothing more. (heavenly father/God has sent me unto you)

Second quote, Jesus is telling the Jews that "I AM" (being heavenly father/God) was around before Abraham.

Sorry if this sounds to simplistic, i am not a learned person, i can only dictate what the spirit would have me say, and as i have already said, the scriptures are for the learned and the unlearned.

I would like church members if possible to tell me if i am wrong, i will not mind, i have learned so much from members whilst reading posts on these forums.

Thank you

The phrase 'I AM' has great meaning not to be taken lightly. :)

[Maureen]

In your first quote, i personally read it that the I AM; is just that, it is Heavenly father speaking to Moses, nothing more. (heavenly father/God has sent me unto you)Second quote, Jesus is telling the Jews that;I AM; (being heavenly father/God) was around before Abraham.

Hi jimuk, the great I AM term, is very much identified with God. God was telling Moses his name, his identity in a way. God is I AM. The Judeans questioning Jesus were very familiar with the name I AM, they knew it meant God. Jesus is actually telling the Judeans that he is God, by identifying himself as I AM. He is not saying he is the Father because he's not the Father, he is the Son. He is admitting that he is God the Son. Edited October 15, 2008 by Maureen