Works are NOT required for Salvation

[prisonchaplain]

Hi there PC.

1. No conversion alone does not = salvation, how can it,

Depends on what salvation means. If it means not being damned, avoiding hell, entering in the heavenly kingdom--then I'd say IT HAS TO. True conversion is salvation. Now, if I told you I believed that a person, once converted, could lose their salvation, might we then be in agreement on this point?

one must strive/try his utmost to honor this conversion and to follow the footsteps of Jesus christ which would = WORKS.

100% AMEN to this!

This struggling to do our best would bring salvation which is same as above, but and yes there is a but.

Gods house is a house of order, things must be done in accordance to the kingdom of heaven who do you think Jesus was talking about when he said the things below, to me he is saying you must follow me and do as " I DO" in my ways and not in the ways of man.

So far, no arguments. To obey is better than sacrifice. Just ask Cain.

So even though those attributed to below "THOUGHT" they were doing gods will, they were not.

There is a right way and there is a wrong way, It is Quoted by jesus himself. And i am honored to be able to say that " The church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints" are doing it the right way.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me'"

Who are these who did in Jesus' name but never knew him? Is this cause for pause??? They had a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof. What was their error? How did they operate within Christian spirituality, and yet not know Jesus? Was it doctrinal error? Failure to discern spirits? Belonging to the wrong church? Any combination of the above? IMHO, every Christian needs to pause and pray David's prayer, "Search my heart, O God, and see if their be any unclean way..."

Does the above quote sound like we are saved by Grace alone, of course it doesent.

I don't believe the quote addresses grace vs. works. But, it could be argued that if I'm hoping my good works will save me, then I don't know Jesus, even if I do good works in his name.

[jadams_4040]

Grace is given for free to us, but we are not saved by grace when we do terrible things in this life and refuse to repent or use repentance as a "means" to do wrong and be forgiven.:)

[hankpac]

I once decided that I had heard enough about "Works" from a so called "Christian". I asked him: If works won't save you, then how can works condemn you?

Can't have one without the other. Bad works (sin) would be non-existent if there were no good works.

[prisonchaplain]

Grace is given for free to us, but we are not saved by grace when we do terrible things in this life and refuse to repent or use repentance as a "means" to do wrong and be forgiven.:)

Grace is freely offered...but we can't get it unless we take it. If we take it, the result will be good works...a product, not a prerequisite.

[prisonchaplain]

I once decided that I had heard enough about "Works" from a so called "Christian". I asked him: If works won't save you, then how can works condemn you?

Can't have one without the other. Bad works (sin) would be non-existent if there were no good works.

Your argument is with Paul, who said that it is not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us. Works are the product and fruit of our gratitude for the grace we choose to embrace. That mercy and grace grow good works in our lives. If they don't, then the grace was never received.

[Justice]

Your argument is with Paul, who said that it is not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy he has saved us. Works are the product and fruit of our gratitude for the grace we choose to embrace. That mercy and grace grow good works in our lives. If they don't, then the grace was never received.

Ahhhhh, but Paul was referring to the law of works, or the law of Moses. It was fulfilled in Christ, so one does not need to obey that law to exercise faith in Christ, repent, and be baptized. Christ never said we don't have to keep "His" commandments, but that we don't have to keep the law of works, or the law of Moses.

This is the cause of the greatest confusion in the Bible about works. Too many people don't see that "works" is in reference to the law of Moses, and "grace" or "fatih" is in reference to the law of Christ.

It was a big stumbling block for many Jews who converted to Christianity after Christ's resurrection and ascension. They believe all must walk the path they walked, through circumcision and the whole law, in order to be a follower of Christ. The Apostles were trying to not offend either group, knowing as long as they all accepted Christ and kept His law of Faith or Grace, then they were all Christians.

If you read those tough scriptures, that seem to contradict each other, in this light it all becomes clear.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Justice

[Justice]

Christ said:

Matt. 5: 16

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Was He speaking about good works of the law of Moses?

No.

Matt. 16:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Works in the law of Moses?

No.

Here is the basis of the teaching, and what they tried to get across to ALL the converts, no matter their background:

Romans 3:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law [law of Moses] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith [law of Jesus Christ] of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith [law of Christ] without the deeds of the law [law of Moses].

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision [law of Moses] by faith [law of Christ], and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law [law of Moses] through faith [law of Christ]? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Law of Works (or "the law") = Law of Moses

Law of Faith (or "faith") = Law of Christ

Circumcision = Jews

Uncircumcision = Gentiles

Prayerfully read this scripture a dozen or so times, understanding the above definitions, and the whole "works" issue in the Bible will become clear.

Confusion solved.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Justice

[Justice]

A very profound comparison:

Romans 7:

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

(for I speak to them that know the law,) or those that know Jewish law or the law of Moses.

It doesn't say they don't have to keep a law, it says they are bound to another law, and that law is Christ's.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Justice

[applepansy]

Two things:

First, Everyone will be resurrected.

Second, there is a difference between salvationa and exaltation.

Maybe a definition of terms would help this thread.

applepansy

[Old Tex]

I'm saved...but I must tend to my salvation.

I have the promise of being "saved" from temporal death because of Christ's resurrection, although it has not come to pass for me yet. It will come purely by the grace of God with no effort on my part. I had no responsibility for the action of Adam which resulted in my death, and I take no credit for my salvation (resurrection) from death.

I also know that a way has been provided for me to achieve glory above and beyond my resurrection, depending in a good measure on my following the teachings of Christ. One will not be admitted into any degree of glory if they cannot live by the principles of that degree of glory. Striving to be obedient to those principles in this life helps to incorporate them into one's "character" and becomes part of them.

I think that some who wrongly accuse LDS of "works" when they are, in fact, only following the council of Christ, are seriously short changing themselves.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Here is a quick response I wrote when confronted by Christians with this argument...

"Grace and Works (all Book of Mormon references taken from the 1990 Temple Lot Edition and Bible references from the NKJV by Thomas Nelson, Inc.)

I’m excited to be able to address the objection to 2 Nephi 11:44. Shall we read the offending verse to begin?

“For we know it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 11:44)

or in the words of another Book of Mormon prophet…

“And remember that after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 7:42)

Now let’s be blunt here… Unless they are followers of Carlton Pearson’s false theology, Christians, if pressed, must admit they believe this also; they just differ on what exactly “after all we can do” entails. Most Christians will tell you that you must “confess the name of Jesus Christ to be saved.” Is that not a work? We as believers in the Bible and Book of Mormon believe that Christ’s admonition to Nicodemus applies to all that learn the gospel… that we must be “born of water and the Spirit.”(John 3:5) These are the “works” we must perform, in faith, as believers to be saved. Of what use is it to learn the gospel but not follow it’s commandments? It is good for nothing.

But for the sake of argument let’s explore the concept of judgment and works…

First the Book of Mormon is clear that our works without faith or the atonement of Jesus Christ avail us nothing, as we would never, of ourselves, be worthy to receive salvation. Let us read the words of a wise old king named Benjamin…

“I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole souls hath power to possess, to that God who hath created you, and hath kept and preserved you, and hath caused that ye should rejoice, and hath granted that ye should live in peace one with another;

I say unto you, that if ye should serve him who hath created you from the beginning, and art preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move, and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another;

I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole soul, yet ye would be unprofitable servants.” (Mosiah 1:52-54)

Now the Book of Mormon is clear we are judged and rewarded, or condemned, according to our works. But the Bible is just as plain! We shall forgo the Book of Mormon passages in favor of the Biblical ones to prove this point…

“…And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books…

…And they were judged, each one according to his works.” (Revelation 20:12-13)

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each one according to his works.” (Matthew 16:27)

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

who will render to each one according to his deeds.”(Romans 2:5-6)

“Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy;

For You render to each one according to his work.”(Psalm 62:12)

“…And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?” (Proverbs 24:12)

“For He repays man according to his work,

And makes man to find a reward according to his way.” (Job 34:11)

“You are great in counsel and mighty in work, for your eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doing.” (Jeremiah 32:19)

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the LORD is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.” (Ezekiel 33:20)

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)

These Biblical verses should be sufficient to show that those who fight the Book of Mormon on this principle are ignorant of their own Bible at best, or are purposely wresting the scriptures and selectively quoting verses that are pleasing to the fleshly man at worst.

In the matter of grace and works, the Two Sticks (Ezekiel 37) are in complete harmony. Cease to fight against the word of God."

[prisonchaplain]

Christ said:

Matt. 5: 16

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Was He speaking about good works of the law of Moses?

No.

Was he speaking primarily to his disciples seeking instruction on how to live out their salvation, or to the crowds who were wondering how to buy their ticket into the heavenly kingdom? I'd suggest the former.

Here is the basis of the teaching, and what they tried to get across to ALL the converts, no matter their background:

Romans 3:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law [law of Moses] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith [law of Jesus Christ] of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith [law of Christ] without the deeds of the law [law of Moses].

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision [law of Moses] by faith [law of Christ], and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law [law of Moses] through faith [law of Christ]? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Law of Works (or "the law") = Law of Moses

Law of Faith (or "faith") = Law of Christ

Circumcision = Jews

Uncircumcision = Gentiles

Prayerfully read this scripture a dozen or so times, understanding the above definitions, and the whole "works" issue in the Bible will become clear.

Confusion solved.

Ah that it were that easy. Jesus did not, would not replace the leaven of the Pharisees with a new leaven of the ecclesia (church), based upon a new set of works.

We are converted by our faith in Jesus to redeem us from our sins and the punishment for them, and we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to righteousness, and we are released to perform those good works that will indeed cause men to glorify our Heavenly Father.

Ironically, we all agree on the necessity of good works--of godly works. We differ on which came first, those good works or our salvation.

[Vanhin]

We are saved by grace, which simply put, is the "enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments."(Guide to the Scriptures: Grace). The grace of Christ, is the enabling power of the Atonement.

Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our faith, repentance, and best efforts would be in vain. But because of it, we can repent and make the necessary changes in our lives required for salvation. Simple as that.

The ordinances of the Gospel, and our faithfulness to the associated covenants, are absolutely necessary for salvation. The ordinances are established by Jesus Christ himself, and administered by the power of the His holy priesthood. Which priesthood is the "...authority and power that God gives to man to act in all things for the salvation of man." (Guide to the Scriptures: Priesthood). So, whether it be by faith or works, we are saved by the grace (or power) of God.

Though there are various degrees of salvation, I submit that only those who are exalted are truly saved, and everyone else will have to live forever with the knowledge of what could have been, which recollection will be like "lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment. " (Jacob 6)

No wonder our Articles of Faith state:

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. (AoF 1:3-5)

That's why our message to all the world is to come unto Christ, and be perfected in him. This is our message in a nutshell...

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Jenamarie]

LDS and mainstream Christians see "Salvation" differently. To most non-LDS Christians, Salvation simply means "Saved from Hell" or saved from the grasp of the devil. There's no mention of Eternal Families, or Exaltation, or Everlasting Priesthood in the non-LDS Christian view of Salvation. It's much more black and white. Either Eternity with the Devil (damned), or Eternity with God (saved).

It is *that* definition of Salvation that I am addressing, and I think it would make our communications with non-LDS Christians more accurate if we went into the convesation with that difference in mind. If we start saying that our "works" (Temple Ordinances, etc.) play a roll in Salvation, then, in the minds of the non-LDS Christians I've encountered, we come across as being a "saved by works" church, which undermines the free gift of Grace. If we were saved by works, then we'd be living in a constant state of fear of damnation, which I don't believe any LDS person is. We know we're going to Heaven, it's just a matter of which one. His Grace has saved us from the Devil's grasp, and therefore we are Saved. Now of course, Grace doesn't end there, and hopefully we don't accept "saved from Hell" as being all we need to have a hunky-dory after-life. We're hopefully tapping into that Grace to start building up our Treasures in Heaven. But that first step is accepting it, and being "Saved".

[prisonchaplain]

I'd only add, that while Protestants and Catholics do not look forward to Eternal Families and Exaltation (although I'd suggest my view that we will indeed receive glorified bodies, judge angels, and rule with Christ comes close), we definitely do believe in an eternal priesthood. In fact, we call your priesthood and double-down, since, at least in my fellowship, the gals are considered part of the "priesthood of all believers."

[Vanhin]

Clearly other Christians are missing some vital information to add to their idea of salvation, but it is obvious to me that when they talk about salvation, it represents the highest or best salvation that God has to offer to mankind. So in that sense, whether they call it that or not, it is exaltation.

Our doctrine of exaltation is supported by the very same scriptures in the Bible that other Christians use to support their idea of salvation, and when the scriptures speak about salvation, they are speaking about the highest possible reward in heaven. So, we are talking about the same thing. We just differ on what it will be like and how it is achieved.

Salvation from the dead, which is also accomplished by the enabling power of the atonement (grace), is a free gift to all who have been born into mortality. This includes those being resurrected unto exaltation and also those being resurrected unto outer darkness (and the lesser glories in between).

Salvation from sin is not a free gift. It has been paid for, but we must do the things necessary to repent, in order for it to be "sufficient for us", or else we must pay for it like the Savior did. It is not our doctrine that grace is a free gift, as far as salvation from sin is concerned. It is freely available to all, but there is a price. That price is faith, repentance, and making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord. We must suffer for our sins like the Savior did if we do not properly take advantage of his atonement.

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— (D&C 19:16-18)

There is not forgiveness without repentance. We must suffer for our sins if we do not repent.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Over43]

We are all saved by grace. But, we also all need to put forth and effort. That's where the works and repentance come in.

As Hugh Nibley used to teach, "We can't save ourselves."

O43

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Okay peoples, I'm reading what most people here think is a debate, but really all I'm seeing is one side reaffirming the other. I'm actually coming to the conclusion that this isn't a really a 'grace or works or both' debate, but a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' debate.

As PC put it, Grace before works? Or works before grace?

Just to mix things up I believe that the two come at the same time, and both continue synonymously.

[prisonchaplain]

YMR, you are close to the kingdom, my son. But, thou failest to see the import of this inquiry. For, if works comes before or at the same time as grace, then it becomes a condition of the conversion. If so, Christ's atonement does not purchase my salvation, but merely offers me a discounted price. Grace must come BEFORE works, and it must be the only price of conversion. THEN it is fair to say that the conversion never took hold unless works are an outgrowth.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Or could we say that works may come before grace, but that they have no meaning? It is only with Grace, and through the atonement of the Christ that we gain salvation, and it is only when we gain said Grace that our works become meaninful?

May I further point out that I should not be talking about this at almost 1 in the morning...my mind is laughing at my inability to discern some of these posts and how to put my thoughts into writing.

[Dale]

Does one need to put forth the effort to be saved from the lake of fire? Degrees of celestial reward can be by grace coupled with gospel obedience. But i doubt only putting terrestrial effort into it will mean you don't get saved status after all you can do.

[Justice]

It's not about timing, PC.

All the "works" required for our salvation, or to answer the law of justice, were performed by Jesus Christ. The works we do are for a different purpose.

Since Christ is the great Mediator now between man and justice, or between us and a just punishment, He can answer for us and extend mercy.

What He will not/cannot do is extend this kind of mercy to those who cannot live the laws of any particular kingdom. In other words, it would not be "merciful" to extend mercy to one who enjoys being angry at others and allow that person to dwell with God. Once this person became angry at others, or at God, he would no longer have a place in God's Kingdom and would be cast out forever with no hope of restoration, just as Satan was.

So, out of love, Christ will extend what mercy He can to each and every person based on where they would be the happiest... based on how they live their life. The mercy He will extend, therefore, is based on what law we choose to live.

So, our "works" do not save us from death and hell... only Christ's do. Our works are performed out of love for Christ and His word, and He will/can extend a greater kingdom to those who love Him enough to keep His commandments.

[Guest tomk]

Another aspect of "why we do the works" is because of our agency. Our choosing to live as God does ... and doing that willingly ... is a crucial aspect of our progression. God cannot impose His will upon us. We must seek it and ask for it and "qualify" for it. That is where our obedience comes in. When we become obedient to the law, and do so willingly, then this is the signal fire that tells God He can change our actual heart and nature without violating our agency. He's not violating our agency because we WANT Him to change us, as evidenced by our token obedience. But it is still a gift in the end. We do not earn it or deserve it, really. We just qualify for it, and because God is our Father and is anxious to bless us, He extends His grace, for the conditions have been met.

God became God through the same process.

[Guest DeborahC]

"Faith without works is dead" says James 2:20.

For me, that pretty much covers it.

[Old Tex]

Right. :) But we don't live in fear of not "doing enough" and ending up in Hell because we failed to do enough Works, like I've heard some Christians say is the way we must feel.

Salvation is being Saved from Hell. Exaltation is the greatest Heavenly Reward. Our Works move us along the path to that reward. But they don't save us from Hell.

In the long run everyone (except a few sons of perdition) will be released from "Hell". It just depends of how long it takes them to provide their own atonement.

Eventially the "gates of hell" will be opened, and all will receive a resurrection, and as a result Christ will proclaim that He has put "death and hell" under His feet and has gained victory over them.

I can't help but wonder how many future eons it will take for all this to happen and for the human family to get sorted out and settled in at a degree of glory they qualify for.