Works are NOT required for Salvation

[Snow]

And I'm refering to Grace as traditional Christianity defines it, NOT how the LDS church defines it. If you say to a traditional Christian that you believe works are a part of Salvation, they'll like look at you like you sprouted a second head and wonder what the heck kind of "Christian" are you to be putting conditions on Christ's FREE GIFT of Grace.

LDS and traditional Christians see being Saved differently. I know that. Which is why we need to sometimes speak to them in *there* terms first, before expounding on what additional teachings we have in regards to being Saved, because otherwise they would probably quickly dismiss us as being heretical for believing that works has ANY roll in being Saved from Hell.

1. The majority of Christianity - traditional Christianity as you term it - believes that works are required for salvation by grace so no, most won't look at you like you've sprouted a second head. Most would nod their one head in agreement. It is the "faith-only" Christians who would disagree and they are a minority.

2. You are not speaking to them in "there terms" first. What you posted is in conflict with their terms. They do not view salvation as being saved from death through the resurrection for all mankind - as you do. They view salvation as pertaining to the select who go on to live with God, in His presence. You do not believe that all mankind will go on live in the presence of God. You believe only the elect will and for those elect, works and obedience are required.

...and btw, though they might try and disagree, most faith-only types do not really believe that grace is a "free" gift. They believe that there is a price, namely putting their faith in Christ, and usually repenting. It's only the Calvinists who really believe in a truly free gift.

[Snow]

I'm a bit concerned that the "salvation," being offered here--a "universal salvation based on the atonement of Christ"--does not even require faith in Christ or repentence of sins?

Perhaps you should be grateful instead that a just God does not condemn you to hell because of the sins of someone you never met, Adam.

[Jenamarie]

Well apparently I'm surrounded in real-life by the "faith only" Christians then, because listening to them explain their belief in what being Saved means is what largely lead me to making this post, after I tried to compare our thinking on the subject to theirs. I've never met, personally, a Christian who wasn't of the "faith only" variety.

[Snow]

Well apparently I'm surrounded in real-life by the "faith only" Christians then, because listening to them explain their belief in what being Saved means is what largely lead me to making this post, after I tried to compare our thinking on the subject to theirs. I've never met, personally, a Christian who wasn't of the "faith only" variety.

You've never met a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian?

Those two denominations alone comprise well over 50% of all Christians and Catholics are the single largest denomination in the U.S.

[Snow]

... and by the way, if your faith-only acquaintances give you a hard time about believing in faith and works... by their own definition of salvation (faith only) you are saved since you have faith in Christ.

If they deny it, they don't believe their own doctrines. Many will dishonestly claim that you believe in a different Christ but the dishonest ones aren't worth bothering with.

[AnthonyB]

PC,

I was attempting to define LDS beliefs into traditional christian terms not definining your or my beliefs.

Jenamarie,

The reason why you probably seem to meet more "faith only" Christians is that firstly the US has a larger percentage of them than just about anywhere else in the world. Secondly evangelism is a very big concern of theirs, so they will make more noise then other Christians. Thirdly having generally had to make a conscious decision to follow Christ and usually be baptized as an adult, there is probably a lower rate of nominalism.

Calvinism

Jesus only atoned for some people and only those will be saved.

(Reformed/Presbyterain)

Arminianism

Jesus atoned for everyone but it is only effective for some. (Usually requiring faith or repentance but in some groups baptism as well.)

(Most Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Methodists)

Universalism

Jesus atoned for everyone and it is effective for everyone.

(Much more common 100-200 years ago but less so now, Unitarian Universlist Church is the only one I can think of.)

From what I've read LDS believe a type of universalism with limited exceptions to its effectiveness.

[jimuk]

Grace alone = walking around like a zombie, not getting involved with other peoples problems, no need for companionship, no need to show others the love and kindness of Christ, keeping ones self to ones self, no need for fellowship towards others. (just truly believe in heavenly father and Jesus)

Works alone = Being a good member of society, showing kindness towards others less fortunate than ones self, getting yourself involved with others problems, showing them kindness, love, and companionship. ( sorry not good enough in the eyes of heavenly father)

Grace and works = Now we have a good combination of what heavenly father and Jesus would have us commit to, We are now showing them just how commited to them we really are. you cannot be like Jesus Christ by only believing that he is the only begotten son of God.

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who " DOES" the will of My Father in heaven.

faith without works is dead.

OOp's sorry

Edited October 29, 2008 by jimuk
needed to change grace for faith

[bytor2112]

I'm a bit concerned that the "salvation," being offered here--a "universal salvation based on the atonement of Christ"--does not even require faith in Christ or repentence of sins?

Those who don't repent will have to pay for their own sins........all will stand before the judgement bar of Christ and every one will kneel and confess that Jesus is the Christ.

From D & C Section 19

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

[bytor2112]

1. The majority of Christianity - traditional Christianity as you term it - believes that works are required for salvation by grace so no, most won't look at you like you've sprouted a second head. Most would nod their one head in agreement. It is the "faith-only" Christians who would disagree and they are a minority.

When they refer to LDS and works they are implying that we believe that we have to do good works in order to gain salvation. Rather, they believe that their is nothing that man can do to earn salvation. True, accepting Christ is a work , as is repentance...IMO. Southern Baptists, which are the second largest US denomination, believe that once your saved...your always saved.....that salvation can't be lost through disobedience and trangression. Their beef with us is that they see us as never having our salvation secured...never knowing we are forgiven....or that we can lose our salvation.

[Justice]

grace without works is dead

I tried this on one of my "Bible-believing Christian" friends one time...

*Faith* without works is dead.

They said their preacher taught them that James wasn't an inspired work and therefore is secondary, and if anything contradicts it then you put it before James.

I had no response.

In fact, I was rather speechless.

[Hemidakota]

PC is correct. There is no such universal salvation until every knee will bow and confess that the Son of GOD is the very Christ. It will require faith to do so. Even the lesser kingdom will demand it. Even as those who enter into the lesser degree of glory. all of those sins will be repented.

[Hemidakota]

Those who don't repent will have to pay for their own sins........all will stand before the judgement bar of Christ and every one will kneel and confess that Jesus is the Christ.

From D & C Section 19

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Exactly...however, will it be necessary to stand in front of GOD if you are rewarded with the Telestial Kingdom?

[jimuk]

I tried this on one of my "Bible-believing Christian" friends one time...

*Faith* without works is dead.

They said their preacher taught them that James wasn't an inspired work and therefore is secondary, and if anything contradicts it then you put it before James.

I had no response.

In fact, I was rather speechless.

Sorry Justice, that should have read "faith", i have edited it now.

[Snow]

PC is correct. There is no such universal salvation until every knee will bow and confess that the Son of GOD is the very Christ. It will require faith to do so. Even the lesser kingdom will demand it. Even as those who enter into the lesser degree of glory. all of those sins will be repented.

Of course Brigham Young would disagree:

"Chapter 40: Salvation through Jesus Christ,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 291

President Brigham Young asked, “Are there none going to be lost? Are there none going to suffer the wrath of the Almighty? I can say, in the first place, as I have said all my life, where I have been preaching, I never had the spirit to preach hell and damnation to the people. I have tried a great many times—I tried last Sabbath, and I have tried today to come to that point—the sufferings of the wicked. They will suffer, it seems; but I cannot get my heart upon anything else, only salvation for the people” (DBY, 388). President Young taught that “all will be resurrected” (DBY, 391). He spoke of a salvation that would “reach the whole human family” (DBY, 389). And he spoke of eternal life for those who strictly “obey the requirements of the [laws] of God, and continue in faithfulness” (DBY, 387).

Teachings of Brigham Young

The salvation that Jesus Christ offers reaches the whole human family.

Behold the goodness, the long-suffering, the kindness, and the strong parental feeling of our Father and God in preparing the way and providing the means to save the children of men—not alone the Latter-day Saints—not alone those who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial law, but to save all. It is a universal salvation—a universal redemption (DBY, 388).

How many shall be preserved? All who do not deny and defy the power and character of the Son of God—all who do not sin against the Holy Ghost (DBY, 387)."

[Old Tex]

Nope you're not missing anything. If person goes through life doing nothing they will still end up in heaven. The Tellestial Kingdom part of heaven but still Heaven,

Well, yes, they may end up in that far dim corner of "Heaven", but not until after someone pays for their sins. And since they made no "arrangements" for Christ to pay for them, they will have to do that themseves before their resurrection.

These are those who are resurrected last, probably because it takes a loooong time in "hell" for one to atone for their own sins before they can receive their resurrection.

[Maureen]

Well, yes, they may end up in that far dim corner of "Heaven", but not until after someone pays for their sins. And since they made no "arrangements" for Christ to pay for them, they will have to do that themseves before their resurrection.

These are those who are resurrected last, probably because it takes a loooong time in "hell" for one to atone for their own sins before they can receive their resurrection.

Can you provide scripture to back up your statements?

M.

[bytor2112]

Can you provide scripture to back up your statements?

M.

Hi Maureen,

Doctrine and Covenants Section 19, verses 15-18. I posted them earlier.....

[Hemidakota]

Of course Brigham Young would disagree:

"Chapter 40: Salvation through Jesus Christ,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 291

President Brigham Young asked, “Are there none going to be lost? Are there none going to suffer the wrath of the Almighty? I can say, in the first place, as I have said all my life, where I have been preaching, I never had the spirit to preach hell and damnation to the people. I have tried a great many times—I tried last Sabbath, and I have tried today to come to that point—the sufferings of the wicked. They will suffer, it seems; but I cannot get my heart upon anything else, only salvation for the people” (DBY, 388). President Young taught that “all will be resurrected” (DBY, 391). He spoke of a salvation that would “reach the whole human family” (DBY, 389). And he spoke of eternal life for those who strictly “obey the requirements of the [laws] of God, and continue in faithfulness” (DBY, 387).

Teachings of Brigham Young

The salvation that Jesus Christ offers reaches the whole human family.

Behold the goodness, the long-suffering, the kindness, and the strong parental feeling of our Father and God in preparing the way and providing the means to save the children of men—not alone the Latter-day Saints—not alone those who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial law, but to save all. It is a universal salvation—a universal redemption (DBY, 388).

How many shall be preserved? All who do not deny and defy the power and character of the Son of God—all who do not sin against the Holy Ghost (DBY, 387)."

Again, there is nothing in his writings that I wrote is not in harmony with President Young. Salvation is still offered to humanity but there is a requirement that is needed to enter any glory state given. You still need to repent and confess that Jesus is that very Christ. Now, if you think that a murderer can inherit the Telestial by walking through the gate, without repentance and not confessing He is the Savior, please explain to me, how it is done.

[Maureen]

These are those who are resurrected last, probably because it takes a loooong time in "hell" for one to atone for their own sins before they can receive their resurrection.

Hi Maureen,

Doctrine and Covenants Section 19, verses 15-18. I posted them earlier.....

I don't see where that scripture says that a person will be able to atone for their own sin.

M.

[bytor2112]

I don't see where that scripture says that a person will be able to atone for their own sin.

M.

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

He probably should have phrased it.....pay for their own sins, rather than atone. The scripture makes clear that now is the time to repent.....that Christ's atonement paid the price for all who come unto him with a broken heart and contrite spirit. If not we will have to suffer as Christ suffered for our own sins

[Hemidakota]

I don't see where that scripture says that a person will be able to atone for their own sin.

M.

It is for those who received the Second Comforter in this life and failed to repent prior to mortal death. They fear and tremble over their salvation.

And as a matter of fact, the added blessing of having one's calling and election made sure is itself an encouragement to avoid sin and a hedge against its further commission. By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness. Thus the Lord said: "I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you." (D. & C. 124:124.)

But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.

As we have already seen, making one's calling and election sure comes after and grows out of celestial marriage. Eternal life does not and cannot exist for a man or a woman alone, because in its very nature it consists of the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Thus the revelation on marriage speaks both of celestial marriage (in which the conditional promises of eternal life are given) and of making one's calling and election sure (in which the unconditional promise of eternal life are given) in one and the same sentence—which sentence also says that those who commit sins (except "murder whereby to shed innocent blood") after being sealed up unto eternal life shall still gain exaltation. This is the language: "Then"—that is, after their calling and election has been made sure—"shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods," because they have eternal life. (D. & C. 132:19-20.)

[Old Tex]

PC is correct. There is no such universal salvation until every knee will bow and confess that the Son of GOD is the very Christ. It will require faith to do so. Even the lesser kingdom will demand it. Even as those who enter into the lesser degree of glory. all of those sins will be repented.

I have been giving that verse about "every knee shall bow" some thought for several months now. Some seem to look at it as, "all shall be convinced by faith", and "confess" that Christ is the Savior.

I have been seeing it as all will "acknowledge" that Christ is the Savior, but acknowledgement does not always imply "conversion". The scriptures also state that the devils believe that Christ is the Savior, and they tremble. It seems to me that many of those who "confess" will actually only be "acknowledging". (And I suspect will be trembling at the same time).

[Hemidakota]

Knee bowing or confessing, He is the Christ, is one and the same. Trembling...no different for those of the Church of the First Born, in mortality, they will 'fear and tremble' over their Salvation.