One Global Faith -- Is It Possible?

[Misshalfway]

I have read all the sections talking about faith (as directed by missionaries) and I have also read many parables in the Book of Mormon about the virtue of faith, but so far it does not agree with my experiences in life.

Not yet maybe. :) There is also hope that is a close sister to faith. And I have hope. :) If I can feel what I feel, I have to believe that others can too.

Faith, hope, obedience, desire. They all work together. We have talked about this before, but the skeptics hat......have you been able even for a time to take that out of your thinking yet?

[DigitalShadow]

Not yet maybe. :) There is also hope that is a close sister to faith. And I have hope. :) If I can feel what I feel, I have to believe that others can too.

Faith, hope, obedience, desire. They all work together. We have talked about this before, but the skeptics hat......have you been able even for a time to take that out of your thinking yet?

Remaining skeptical and critically analyzing everything is as much a part of me as feeling the spirit is a part of you :)

[Misshalfway]

Remaining skeptical and critically analyzing everything is as much a part of me as feeling the spirit is a part of you :)

Yes, I imagine it is. :)

But, I would argue that keep the spirit with me takes work! My natural impulse would probably be to take the easy way round everything. :)

[DigitalShadow]

I don't believe that I can't be fooled. That is a whole other side to this story. There are opposites in all things, but that is another subject.

I don't know if I can accurately explain all of human perception, but the scriptures do a pretty good job at describing what happens.

I just know that I have tested the process and that I have discovered that it works. I can know so many different things thru the Spirit. I have been obedient, and by george the Spirit is with me and I have been disobedient, and dang, talk about the closing of the heavens! I can feel that difference in my life and know which course I should follow if I do want to experience the spirit of the Lord. These are observable and measurable occurrences.

But it is more than just believing and always staying in the dark hoping you got it right. Faith without works is dead. There are proofs along the way. There is fruit that comes from what you plant and that is something that can be logically evaluated. In fact, the whole process is very logical and repeatable and provable if you get the vision of it. And a lot of it comes by the doing of it. You can't know China unless you go there. I can tell you all about it, but if you won't get on the boat or you won't accept that boats float and that you will arrive safely , then well.......you get my point. You can even talk about China all day and look at pictures and think it exists but until you get in the boat and go in that direction, you can't know. I think this is why you hear LDS people say stuff like " I know that is true....etc" because they got on the boat.....

Please understand that I believe that many churches have truth. Truth is truth wherever you live and whatever the circumstance. Truth is universal that way. And the spirit will testify of truth point by point.

Another scripture of importance here......

D&C 130: 20-21

"There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated --

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

And my experiments and life experience have led me to the opposite conclusion. I am incredibly happy in life and have been given more than most, yet I have no faith.

[DigitalShadow]

Yes, I imagine it is. :)

But, I would argue that keep the spirit with me takes work! My natural impulse would probably be to take the easy way round everything. :)

My natural impulse is to take the hard way. I guess I'm just stubborn like that.

[Starfish]

So far my experiment yields no results. I do not feel the spirit no matter how much I try. (still trying as urged by my wife and members of the forum)

I also feel there are many good things in my life, however I have never had faith in any religion, so I don't think it comes from any particular church.

Thanks for your honest response. Back to Alma 32, it says it starts with desire. The desire to believe.

Also, I've learned (recently) that God doesn't give us anything we're not ready for. So if you feel you are not receiving anything from Him, maybe it's because you're not ready.

An answer from God demands change. If he gave you an answer, for example, on the truthfulness of the Gospel, you'd be required to start living it. If He sees that you are not ready to change in this way, He won't send you the answer. I think this is part of His mercy.

He'll wait till you are ready, and have a true and sincere desire, then the answers will come. This is the great value of adversity. It tends to humble us, making us more receptive to God and open to what He has for us.

[Hemidakota]

In President Packer writings I just posted [his latest book] on another thread, there is a chapter that primary deals with revelation and how the Spirit works. Here is a sample of that chapter that talks about the inner workings of the Spirit means of communications.

the voice of the Spirit is generally felt rather than heard. We do not have the words (even the scriptures do not have words) which perfectly describe the Spirit. The scriptures generally use the word voice, which does not exactly fit. These delicate, refined spiritual communications are not seen with our eyes, nor heard with our ears. And even though it is described as a voice, it is a voice that one feels, more than one hears.9 (82–04, p. 52)

The depth of personal revelation comes as a feeling. If you listen with your mortal ears for the revelations of the Almighty, you will receive part of it because of the patterns of preaching. But that depth of personal revelation comes to you when you feel. You don't hear the words of an angel, you feel the words of an angel, because “angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.” (94–04)

Inspiration comes as thoughts, feelings, and impressions. The Holy Ghost communicates with the spirit through the mind more than through the physical senses. This guidance comes as thoughts, as feelings, through impressions and promptings.

[Misshalfway]

I think it is awesome that you are as happy as you are, DS. Perhaps faith will come too.

Until then, I wonder often if you don't have some mission that you must fulfill in the interim. Perhaps there is some purpose to your experience thus far.

The more I learn about God and the plan of salvation......I think that enjoying an experience in the flesh might be more important (slightly :) ) than learning of redemption. I mean God can fill us in after we leave this life and has a plan in place to cover all those bases.

I suppose if you have learned to find happiness in your journey's you have learned at least one the valuable lessons of life.

Perhaps it is life that will teach you about faith. Perhaps it will be suffering......how could I possibly know? I don't. But I wonder........ In my experience with life, it seems what happens to me usually is coupled with some lesson I need to learn or some truth I need to add to my view.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks for your honest response. Back to Alma 32, it says it starts with desire. The desire to believe.

Also, I've learned (recently) that God doesn't give us anything we're not ready for. So if you feel you are not receiving anything from Him, maybe it's because you're not ready.

An answer from God demands change. If he gave you an answer, for example, on the truthfulness of the Gospel, you'd be required to start living it. If He sees that you are not ready to change in this way, He won't send you the answer. I think this is part of His mercy.

He'll wait till you are ready, and have a true and sincere desire, then the answers will come. This is the great value of adversity. It tends to humble us, making us more receptive to God and open to what He has for us.

Having that desire, eventually it is answered by means that we can understand it perfectly.

[Hemidakota]

My natural impulse is to take the hard way. I guess I'm just stubborn like that.

So was I until I learned the valuable lesson on the Atonement.

[DigitalShadow]

Thanks for your honest response. Back to Alma 32, it says it starts with desire. The desire to believe.

Also, I've learned (recently) that God doesn't give us anything we're not ready for. So if you feel you are not receiving anything from Him, maybe it's because you're not ready.

An answer from God demands change. If he gave you an answer, for example, on the truthfulness of the Gospel, you'd be required to start living it. If He sees that you are not ready to change in this way, He won't send you the answer. I think this is part of His mercy.

He'll wait till you are ready, and have a true and sincere desire, then the answers will come. This is the great value of adversity. It tends to humble us, making us more receptive to God and open to what He has for us.

For the most part I am already living the rules put forth by your religion. Most of it is already common sense to me and the rest of it is done out of respect to my wife's beliefs. The only thing that keeps me from getting baptized is that I honestly don't think or feel that the church is true yet despite how much I investigate.

I would also like to note that the strong desire to believe often leads to belief whether it is true or not. If you really want to believe that UFO's (of extra terrestrial origin) exist you will look for evidence and probably find it and not look for any evidence to the contrary, maybe even flat out ignore evidence to the contrary. See confirmation bias.

[DigitalShadow]

So was I until I learned the valuable lesson on the Atonement.

I haven't really done anything that needs atoning... I simply prefer more difficult problems to easy ones and live to be challenged.

[Hemidakota]

"He granteth unto men according to their desire." This phrase has given me more insight to truths that is not yet taught. I suspect it is due to the ability of those in not being spiritual mature enough to receive it.

I for one would not join the church either DS, without seeing and hearing it from the sole source Himself. Eventually, my stubborness paid off but it does come with a price if not lived properly.

[Hemidakota]

I haven't really done anything that needs atoning... I simply prefer more difficult problems to easy ones and live to be challenged.

As presented in President Packer statement above, it didn’t come by words but from an overwhelming feeling of the Spirit that I question its veracity - "..what is this my Lord? These feelings I am receiving…" I wanted to know about the Atonement that cannot be denied. We receive those revelations when we best can understand them fully without any deniability.

[DigitalShadow]

"He granteth unto men according to their desire." This phrase has given me more insight to truths that is not yet taught. I suspect it is due to the ability of those in not being spiritual mature enough to receive it.

I for one would not join the church either DS, without seeing and hearing it from the sole source Himself. Eventually, my stubborness paid off but it does come with a price if not lived properly.

I live my life according to what I think is the right thing to do. Unfortunately it is not possible to be a good and moral person according to the doctrine of every religion in case one of them is right, but any God who would fault me for treating others how I would want to be treated is not one that I would willingly follow even if I knew they existed.

Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?

[Hemidakota]

“Pascal's Wager” is the name given to an argument due to Blaise Pascal for believing, or for at least taking steps to believe, in God. The name is somewhat misleading, for in a single paragraph of his Pensées, Pascal apparently presents at least three such arguments, each of which might be called a ‘wager’ — it is only the final of these that is traditionally referred to as "Pascal's Wager". We find in it the extraordinary confluence of several important strands of thought: the justification of theism; probability theory and decision theory, used here for almost the first time in history; pragmatism; voluntarism (the thesis that belief is a matter of the will); and the use of the concept of infinity. Yes?

[DigitalShadow]

“Pascal's Wager” is the name given to an argument due to Blaise Pascal for believing, or for at least taking steps to believe, in God. The name is somewhat misleading, for in a single paragraph of his Pensées, Pascal apparently presents at least three such arguments, each of which might be called a ‘wager’ — it is only the final of these that is traditionally referred to as "Pascal's Wager". We find in it the extraordinary confluence of several important strands of thought: the justification of theism; probability theory and decision theory, used here for almost the first time in history; pragmatism; voluntarism (the thesis that belief is a matter of the will); and the use of the concept of infinity. Yes?

Technically yes, but to simplify what it means when people usually refer to it, it is basically that if you live as if God exists, you would get a possible reward if he does exist and there would be nothing to lose if he does not exist. However if you live as God does not exist there is possible punishment if he does exist and no effect if he does not exist. The end result being that it is safer to "bet" that God does exist.

I disagree with that analysis though. With the multitude of religions that exist now and have existed throughout history it is impossible to live as if all of them are true since some require the opposite actions. Putting faith in any religion could just as easily lead to eternal suffering from another religion.

I guess that's going off on a bit of a tangent though. I brought it up because the last part of your statement somewhat reminded me of that line of thinking:

Eventually, my stubborness paid off but it does come with a price if not lived properly.

My thought is that every action could come with a price depending on what religion (if any) turns out to be true.

[Starfish]

I've known four non-LDS men who married LDS women, allowed her to raise their children in the Church, and eventually were baptized after the children were grown. One man was baptized and went to the temple within a year of his death. We all rejoiced when they joined the Church, especially their families. However, due to the long example of their dad, some of the children of these homes are inactive/non-members today. Would they be active if their dad had been LDS when he raised them? Don't know. However, these men probably deal with self-blame and regret, whether justified or not, because of the situation of these children, their children, and an entire line of posterity.

[DigitalShadow]

I've known four non-LDS men who married LDS women, allowed her to raise their children in the Church, and eventually were baptized after the children were grown. One man was baptized and went to the temple within a year of his death. We all rejoiced when they joined the Church, especially their families. However, due to the long example of their dad, some of the children of these homes are inactive/non-members today. Would they be active if their dad had been LDS when he raised them? Don't know. However, these men probably deal with self-blame and regret, whether justified or not, because of the situation of these children, their children, and an entire line of posterity.

I don't have any children yet and I'm not planning on it for a long while, but when I do have children I would have no self-blame or regret if they grew up to be members or non-members. It is their own personal choice and I don't think that either me or my wife would be disappointed as long as they turn out to be decent human beings.

[Starfish]

I don't have any children yet and I'm not planning on it for a long while, but when I do have children I would have no self-blame or regret if they grew up to be members or non-members. It is their own personal choice and I don't think that either me or my wife would be disappointed as long as they turn out to be decent human beings.

That says that neither you nor your wife really understands the Gospel.

[DigitalShadow]

That says that neither you nor your wife really understands the Gospel.

I understand completely that you believe in order to live happily ever after in the next kingdom you all have to be good little LDS church goers, but I also respect that children are their own individuals capable of making their own choices (see free agency if in doubt) and will love them no matter what. I've seen the family strife that can be caused by the attitude that your children WILL be LDS members no matter what. Whatever you want to force on your kids is your business, but I don't appreciate your condescending attitude.

Edited October 20, 2008 by DigitalShadow
typo

[Islander]

For those who require absolutely unequivocal, undeniable and empirically verifiable information in order to believe; I would suggest to stick with Chemistry, Botany, Electronics or any other discipline that deals primarily with the tangible physical world. They should leave religion alone since ALL religions rely on a belief in divinity that can not be seen or touched and historical events that, by far, can not be verified.

Beyond that, it takes humility and faith to receive a witness of the reality of the Atonement and the hand of God in all things.

[DigitalShadow]

For those who require absolutely unequivocal, undeniable and empirically verifiable information in order to believe; I would suggest to stick with Chemistry, Botany, Electronics or any other discipline that deals primarily with the tangible physical world. They should leave religion alone since ALL religions rely on a belief in divinity that can not be seen or touched and historical events that, by far, can not be verified.

Beyond that, it takes humility and faith to receive a witness of the reality of the Atonement and the hand of God in all things.

I thought God wanted all his children to know him, including those with a distinctly skeptical and scientific nature?

Keep in mind that it also takes humility to consider that your own religious beliefs may be wrong. Your statement reads like: "It takes humility to realize that my views are absolutely right." Can you not see the irony in that?

[Traveler]

I agree that there is an event horizon, beyond which we can know nothing about the universe or even speculate how those initial conditions came to be. Simply assuming it was some creator does not make sense to me though. From what I've seen intelligence itself is a fluke. We cannot recreate it so I see no reason to assume that it takes some other intelligence to create intelligence since we've never seen an instance of that either.

I think you missed the point - if logic is not a part of the order in the universe then the use of logic to understand the universe is counter productive. Therefore, if you do not believe in order by logic - why use logic to try to understand an assumed order - this plays to an event horizon or what follows.

Even Chaos Theory implies that the introduction of logic to a system that is not order by logic will skew the results. As I said before - I am not willing to abandon logic. Why would you employ ordered logic to a system you believe is not ordered by logic? I just do not see the logic in that.

The Traveler

[Starfish]

I understand completely that you believe in order to live happily ever after in the next kingdom you all have to be good little LDS church goers, but I also respect that children are their own individuals capable of making their own choices (see free agency if in doubt) and will love them no matter what. I've seen the family strife that can be caused by the attitude that your children WILL be LDS members no matter what. Whatever you want to force on your kids is your business, but I don't appreciate your condescending attitude.

I really didn't mean to be condescending and I worried you'd take it that way. Not really understanding the Gospel is not an insult. Most of us don't fully understand it. I've spend many years increasing my understanding and have a long way to go.

Forcing anyone to be LDS is pointless. But we are responsible to teach our children truth after which they do have agency to accept or reject it.

No you don't really understand it. How could you? You've never been a member--or maybe you have--I don't know. You've never been to the temple? Have you read and reread the scriptures and prayed for understanding? Have you listened to every word in General Conference and applied it to your life? I'm not judging you, just pointing out that you can't expect to really understand the Gospel/Plan of Salvation without a lifetime of study.

I've been studying the Gospel for decades and continue to learn new things. And I continue to learn how much I DON'T know. We learn bit by bit. But I have learned enough that I know we are better with the Gospel than without. I've seen how it changes people for the better. I've experienced the blessings.

So to say it doesn't matter if your children embrace the Gospel or not, says you don't really know what life is like with it, very well.

Oh, btw, the statement "good little LDS members" is a bit condescending.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Starfish