Abortion

[apple]

I would like to metion the not so small issue of abortion I think the presidents stance on this matter is a clear indicator of who he is compared to pro-choice (pro-death) Kerry.

Would you want your teen-age daughter to have an abortion avalible to her w/o your knowledge?

Or even a woman you don't Know being able to kill her own child for conviance?

I feal I can say these things on an LDS forem because we understand the importance of life and the importance of not making the world we live in be one were a scared woman can commit murder and damage herself eternally.

I will be voting for Bush b/c no matter his flaws, he is not shifty. I feal that we do not know what we will be getting with a man like Kerry who is so wishy-washy it makes me sea-sick. Any time I think Kerry may get my vote he will say something to concradict whatever made me lean his way.

Another question I have is what are your veiws on stem-cell research and is abortion okay to you in some situations?

[Cyra]

Originally posted by apple@Oct 21 2004, 06:20 PM

I would like to metion the not so small issue of abortion I think the presidents stance on this matter is a clear indicator of who he is compared to pro-choice (pro-death) Kerry.

Would you want your teen-age daughter to have an abortion avalible to her w/o your knowledge?

Or even a woman you don't Know being able to kill her own child for conviance?

I feal I can say these things on an LDS forem because we understand the importance of life and the importance of not making the world we live in be one were a scared woman can commit murder and damage herself eternally.

I will be voting for Bush b/c no matter his flaws, he is not shifty. I feal that we do not know what we will be getting with a man like Kerry who is so wishy-washy it makes me sea-sick. Any time I think Kerry may get my vote he will say something to concradict whatever made me lean his way.

Another question I have is what are your veiws on stem-cell research and is abortion okay to you in some situations?

You are a little late on your abortion stance. Your teenage daughter can ALREADY get an abortion without your permission or knowledge and any stranger who wishes can ALREADY get an abortion for convenience. No matter how much we (LDS) and the religious right scream and protest, that is a fact that will not chance. If one really wants to prevent abortion, at this point in history, we much prevent the NEED for an abortion.

IMO- that would be done by educating both our daughters and our sons. We have to get them to see the importance of preventing the pregnancy in the first place. Carrying a sack of flour or a mechanical baby around school for a week will not do it either. The teen needs to see real babies and real teens in real life situations. They also need to know how their bodies actually work, the long run consequences of abortion on a girl's body, emotional and spiritual well being. Scare tactics will not work either. It must be accurate and truthful because kids today are smart enough to know if we are not being truthful.

That's just my opinion and observation after spending years as a girl scout/ boy scout leader and as a mother of 3 (just barely) adult children.

Cyra

[apple]

You are right, but are we all supposed to just accept it b/c it is legal?

And we can teach our kids all the morals in the world but what about the helpless babies concieved by the kids with parents who did not teach them the to make wise choices? Should they die?????

I'm sorry if I seem to be ranting unintelligently this whole issue just makes me so crazy!!!

My ex-best friend has had 2 maybe 3 abortions in the past 2 years. Just because she did not want to have a baby right now or by the father of the child. The first time I was so upset but decided to forgive her because we have been friends for so long. The second murder tore me up because I feal so accountable for not having did moor to let her know how awful what she did is. I only talk to her occasionly now and never see her, but I feal accoutable for the baby.

[Winnie G]

Abortion is a privet matter between the women who shoes we don’t walk in her doctor and her God what ever that might be.

As a women who started out in this road to parenthood at 18 and single I can say in those days people judged you harshly even my own mother forced me to wear a fake wedding ring when in public with her. I was not LDS at the time.

A LDS friend picked me up one night and he saw the ring on my finger, he took it off my finger and tossed in on the kitchen table saying you are not a married women hold your head up and if other people have a problem with that send them to see me, he looked hard at my mother.

If it was not for the sisters in the church I would not have known how to care for my baby, I came home with him and my mother said “you made you bed you lay in it”. I had to read the side of the paper box to learn how to change his dipper. My friend came to my aid along with his bishop and the sisters of his ward. To my mother because I chose to have my baby I could have been somebody.

I late joined the church to me it walked the walk.

Lets face it if the world was more tolerant women would not seek to end a pregnancy. The world would have to love a lot more for that to happen.

Abortion must stay legal in order to stop the horror of the past with illegal abortions and back alley abortions. That’s what Roe Vs Wade (sp) was all about the accesses to safe Abortion’s, the right to choose.

Education is a must just say no does not work and we can see its folly. If Bush has his why shame would rise and people will do desperate things. I remember the days were it was illegal. You don’t want to go there.

[Guest bat]

Winnie,

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[Traveler]

Do we want to force women into dark filthy germ infested alleys to be treated with coat hangers? You know that is what will happen if you out law ------ What did you think would fill in the blank? How about we fill it in with “clean quick sanitary rape and murder in the privacy of your home”.

When the courts ruled Roe vs. Wade the question and the ruling was that there is no scientific or religious proof suitable in a court of law that a fetus is human life during the first trimester of pregnancy. Under the laws of this country a person must be considered innocent until “Proven” guilty, therefore there can be no guilty verdict until proof of human life. What then is provable human life? Is a person on life support, to no longer to be considered human life? If someone is in need of CPR for survival, is it a crime to deny life saving assistance?

The standard used in all other cases is “brain dead” meaning the brain in no longer able to respond to any cognitive stimulus. No such standard in a partial birth abortion. Did you know that currently it is legal and called abortion to kill a child as long as the birth process is not complete? The child can be breathing on it own, eyes open and responding to its environment – but if the birth process is not 100% complete the life of that child can legally be taken. And what is the method? In most cases of what is called partial birth abortion, the skull is crushed. There is no administering of any painkiller to the child – just a brutal act. Often the child screams during the process demonstrating they were NOT brain dead.

And for what reason is such a thing to be allowed? The choice of the mother? It is said that the choice should be left between a doctor and the woman, but a doctor can, by law be denied, license to practice or fired from their employ, in many cases if they refuse to perform the abortion at the request of the woman. It is a lie to say the decision is between a woman and her doctor – an out right lie!

How can we even think to allow the finger to be placed on the nuclear trigger by someone that will willing support without any question the crushing of the skull of a (very brain alive) child breathing on it own? Let alone someone that promises to never appoint any judge to any level of our courts that does not support 100% without question, such action? What justice can we possibly hope for?

The Traveler

[Faerie]

hmmm, I believe what Bush is wanting is FEWER abortions and MORE education..he has specifically said over and over that he does not want to undo RvW...he IS against partial birth abortion which is understandable...

are there circumstances where abortion is acceptable? yes!!!! rape, incest, mother's or baby's health...

i have met a girl online who terminated her pregnancy at 20 weeks...why? because her baby had so many horrible deformities, that he wouldn't live to take a breath outside of his mother's body...his body was so twisted inutero that he did not resemble a human fetus...she chose to end her pregnancy because her child had no chance and she did not want to go through another 20 weeks of knowing that she was just delaying his death and she did not want him to die in an inhumane way...do I think she made the right decision? yes, as I know it was not made lightly and it was made after hours of prayer and reflection (no she's not LDS)...

i wish there was another "class" on this issue..instead of "pro choice" or "pro life"..i consider myself somewhere in the middle...

a: i think abortion is used too often, and too easily.

b: i think there should be strict limits placed on abortion, so that it's not used as a

means of "birth control"

- including age restrictions, parental consent, and mandatory counseling.

c: i think there needs to be FAR MORE education on the ramifications of abortion

- ala:

* women who have had abortions may develop scar tissue and adhesions

* scar tissue and adhesions interfere with fertility

* a decision made out of fear or uneducation can turn into a struggle to

conceive later in life.

- ala:

* women who have had their cervix forced open in the abortion process are

at a much higher risk of incompetent cervix and miscarriage

* incompetent cervix leads to premature delivery which leads to either fetal

death or lifelong disabilities including retardation, blindness, and other

neurological complications

: the choice is made to offically start a family, only to find that one is

unable to carry a child to term

: the consequences include long term bed rest, expensive hospital bills,

undescribeable emotional and financial turmoil

- ala:

* losing a pregnancy not only puts a woman's body through a rollercoaster

of hormones, it can wreak havock on one's emotional state.

* it's not just a matter of "ho hum, i lost some tissue." many women who

have elected to have abortions struggle with their decision for the rest of

their adult life, especially when they purposefully start their families.

d: there needs to be better support and progress made with adoption in this country.

there are thousands upon thousands of families who spend thousands and

thousands to adopt children from both this country and foreign countries. just

because one doesn't want a child with a certain man, or cannot afford to have a

child doesn't mean there's no hope or chance in life for that child. more support

and less "social stigma" would fulfill a double barrel: giving a child to a family

who desperately wants one, not having to deal with the ramifications of abortion

later in life.

Do I think abortion is "murder"?? I guess it also depends on WHEN an abortion is performed. I fully believe partial birth abortion to be murder, giving the fact that most fetuses that are killed by pba can survive outside of the womb with medical care. To me that's the deciding factor: if this fetus were to be delivered would it survive? A 6 week embryo would not, therefore I think it is a tragic act that may very well have lasting consequences and impact. I lost an embryo at 8 weeks due to ectopic pregnancy and the physical ramifications of the procedure i went through delayed my current pregnancy by over a year. A 21-24 week fetus can survive with medical care and in these days of modern medicine: can grow up to be a healthy and productive person.

Do I support stem cell research? Yes.

Do I support the purposeful creation of embryos for stem cell research? Absolutely not.

There are thousands of frozen embryos in this country. They are "leftovers" from Invitro Fertilization cycles that will never be used, that will be destroyed after a certain amount of time has passed. These embryos could and should be used in stem cell research, there's an unending supply. Do I think this is "murder"?? No. Most women will miscarry an embryo of the same "age" and never know it. The average woman will have experienced 10-15 "early miscarriages" in her life and would never be able to tell you one detail other than "wow, my period sure was harsh this month."

Abortion is not a black or white issue. There are many gray areas that can easily be handled by both sides.

[Winnie G]

In Canada there are no abortion clinics you have ask your doctor to take your case to a hospital board, two doctors have to approve. It is not a walk in kind of atmosphere.

There is a trained staff to walk you through so at any moment you have someone helping make sure this is what you want to go, its not so Oh its like having a tooth pulled.

We as women must protect the rights of all women so good old men’s club is not given the right back to decide what happens to our bodies.

It’s a hard to walk that thin line.

Just before my fourth child was born I chose to have my tubes cut and tied, before then my husband had to sign off on the surgery. When the nurse came in my ex asked were do I sign? She looked up at him and said, “You don’t”

He was miffed, well you know what weenie boy its my body!

I know it’s a tuff decision but going back it is not a option.

I visited friends who’s 2nd child was born at 6 months and I cant see anyone aborting any child that can live out side the womb, under three months is the law in Canada in less the heath of the mother is high risk.

[Cyra]

Originally posted by apple@Oct 21 2004, 09:04 PM

You are right, but are we all supposed to just accept it b/c it is legal?

And we can teach our kids all the morals in the world but what about the helpless babies concieved by the kids with parents who did not teach them the to make wise choices? Should they die?????

I'm sorry if I seem to be ranting unintelligently this whole issue just makes me so crazy!!!

My ex-best friend has had 2 maybe 3 abortions in the past 2 years. Just because she did not want to have a baby right now or by the father of the child. The first time I was so upset but decided to forgive her because we have been friends for so long. The second murder tore me up because I feal so accountable for not having did moor to let her know how awful what she did is. I only talk to her occasionly now and never see her, but I feal accoutable for the baby.

I'll probably get royally flamed for saying this, but here goes.

What makes you think that by making abortion illegal that it will stop? You are obviously too young to remember what it was like before abortion became legal. It was equally ugly back then, maybe more so. Why is it worse to murder an unborn baby than it is to murder a teenager or an adult. My first husband was murdered for less than $200. during a robbery. Yes, it was illegal, but did that prevent it from happening.

You can get yourself all bent out of shape over something that you an not change, or you can work constructively to make the small changes in your own little part of the world. The choice is yours.

Cyra

[Guest Unorthodox]

Deleted

[Larry Kozlowski]

Oh come on, we all know that when we legislated pot in this country it immediately stopped. These bans work, people! I say ban abortion and then, God willing, make sure we do away with Iceland and then maybe reruns of Becker.

[Winnie G]

(pro-death) Kerry

No he is pro choice what women do with it is there choice.

I would not use it but its fare to women that it is theirs to chose.

Pro-life uses in your face violence to take away your choice.

Provision of UN wanted pregnancy to the key!

Education Education Education Education Education Education

Society needs to change so women will not be labeled as a Un-wed mother, what kind of label is that! Crap like that has gone on for years! The government keeps track. They drag out the numbers every year, I don’t see any one dragging out the labels of unwed fathers!

I know why but do it in a loving manner.

We should look up to our government on this I cant.

My daughter is expecting a new blessing even all though all of us know they cant afford another baby that’s were family comes in.

The news was grated with joy and not condemnation,

what’s wrong with you two you cant afford another baby, there’s a drug store on every corner, cant you control your self’s

Women would not have the need for that choice.

Even with worries over the news, I rejoiced with my daughter.

My daughter and son in law would never choose to end a pregnancy.

Because they know they have a support system. Not even a 2nd thought but that come from years of talking to my children about family and what a support system a family is, we did the what if when taking to our children as they grow up. They know were as a family we stand. All that talking in stead of condemnation gave us a family that supports each other.

Think about it would more women choose life if they know society changed.

[Faerie]

i have to disagree w/ your "pro life" description...sure, there are hard core nuts in the "pro life" category, just as there are nuts in the "left wing" category and the "right wing" category...

the majority of "pro life" people i've spoken with share my similar views...that it needs to be controlled, available only in certain circumstances, yadda yadda yadda..

and i agree w/ you winnie on family support...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Larry Kozlowski@Oct 22 2004, 10:42 AM

Oh come on, we all know that when we legislated pot in this country it immediately stopped. These bans work, people! I say ban abortion and then, God willing, make sure we do away with Iceland and then maybe reruns of Becker.

You can spit in my face and step on my blue suede shoes, but don't mess with my Iceland, heimskinki!

Putting aside your patented sarcasm (not really a substantive argument style, by the way, but a weak sneering substitute for one), have you considered that no ban on anything is 100% effective?

We ban racial discrimination in hiring. We obviously don't prevent all of it. Part of the reason for the ban is to prevent what we can, and another important part is to express society's disapproval of it.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Winnie,

Let's imagine you were dictator for a day and got the final say on all laws governing abortion. How would you set things up?

[Larry Kozlowski]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Oct 22 2004, 12:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Oct 22 2004, 12:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Larry Kozlowski@Oct 22 2004, 10:42 AM

Oh come on, we all know that when we legislated pot in this country it immediately stopped. These bans work, people! I say ban abortion and then, God willing, make sure we do away with Iceland and then maybe reruns of Becker.

You can spit in my face and step on my blue suede shoes, but don't mess with my Iceland, heimskinki!

Putting aside your patented sarcasm (not really a substantive argument style, by the way, but a weak sneering substitute for one), have you considered that no ban on anything is 100% effective?

We ban racial discrimination in hiring. We obviously don't prevent all of it. Part of the reason for the ban is to prevent what we can, and another important part is to express society's disapproval of it.

Save your breath, my friend... you are preaching to the choir! La la la laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Oh yeah, and we should also ban anything that's periwinkle as I just don't like the color. Waxed floss is also the devil, FYI.

[Winnie G]

Let's imagine you were dictator for a day and got the final say on all laws governing abortion. How would you set things up?

I would use Canada’s approach and I ding the fathers and familys for support, makes it a level playing field.

I would legislate change in how the government treats the women who find them self’s in a tight corner.

The term un-wed would be abolished as a term to describe the stats.

Canada does not do late term abortions in less it is in the case of pending catastrophic illness or death on the mothers part.

None can truly understand in less you have walked in those shoes, being called a un-wed mother and being treated with condemnation by doctors and even my own family hurt beyond you could imagine.

Society must change in order to end abortion all together. It has to come from with in not because other impose it.

It’s a nice idea but it will never happen

[Guest curvette]

People have been practicing abortion and infanticide since the beginning of, well, people. I like to think that we've progressed morally since then but I'm not so sure... I would vote to ban all third trimester abortions (except in life threatening situations), all partial birth abortions (barbaric!), most second semester abortions, and no first trimester abortions. Once a fetus is viable--I just don't see how anyone can justify terminating it. I'm basically opposed to all abortions, but I definitely see a difference between very early abortion and abortion in advanced stages of pregnancy.

I'm completely in favor of stem cell research.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Deleted

[apple]

I agree that in some situations like if the mother's life is a risk abortion is an option. What gets me is how easy it is for any one else to do this to herself.

And the fact that it would be done wether it is legal or not does not justify it being legal.

There is rape and theives and child molesters and there probably will be untill the second coming but does that mean we should legaliz these things?

Are we so desensitized as a contry that we cannot see how wrong this whole situation is?

And as far as women being judged for having children out of wed lock, I don't know about the rest of the country but were I live it seems to be the norm.

In fact I felt like the odd one out for being married.

[DisRuptive1]

Originally posted by Faerie@Oct 22 2004, 07:01 AM

are there circumstances where abortion is acceptable? yes!!!! rape, incest, mother's or baby's health...

That includes partial birth abortion, right?

Are we also failing to realize about the outer appearences of mothers? It's obvious that a woman who goes through a pregnancy will no longer be as attractive as she could have been had she not had the child. Since men are visual creatures and attracted to attractive women, having children hurts a woman's chance of finding a suitor. Therefore, having an abortion can help a woman's future, by not diminishing her opportunity to find a mate. And she might not even want to have a child. She might have just wanted sexual release in the first place. I know men that will fail to use protection because of the desire for sexual release outweighs their sense of logic.

And I do agree that education will help out. We all know that abstinence isn't going to help any sixth year old. We need to teach about protection instead. And at the very least, alternative things to do besides sex. Let the churches teach their children about abstinence. Schools need to teach children how to protect themselves. I think about 85% of all children will have sex before they graduate. Or some high number like that. I got the information from "The Guy Game." (video game)

[Faerie]

no that does not include partial birth abortion...there is NO acceptable reason for a partial birth...

rape? 1st trimester

incest? 1st trimester

mother's health? deliver the baby immediately, no need to crush its skull and suck its brain out

baby's health? same as above

and i'm sorry, "looks" is THE most selfish reason to want an abortion and any woman who has an abortion because she doesn't want to lose her girlish figure..well..i'll save that thought for myself...

[DisRuptive1]

Well it is true, ya know. A woman will never, ever be as attractive as she could be if she had any children. Some girls already have poor self-esteem and don't want their looks to go down hill. So they have an abortion. And do you really want a child to be raised by someone with poor self esteem?

And what about mother's who have children without fathers. I think those women are selfish to not have an abortion or at least put the child up for adoption. Living in a one parent household can screw up a child. Some women understand this so is it wrong if they have an abortion if their boyfriend/spouse says that they don't want a child and will leave them if they have it? If they have it, their child will have no father or a father who doesn't help them out in any way (if the father is smart). If she has the abortion she can maintain her life with her boyfriend/spouse. Abortion isn't always about the right to life of a child. There is more behind it in most circumstances. And some people just are not fit to be parents. Either they're bad or ignorant parents, or they just don't have the money to support a child. So what is more wrong? Killing a child by abortion (I do agree PBA is barbaric and should be outlawed), or bringing a child into the world in which it has no or very little support, terrible parents or lack of one, or parents which don't have enough money to support it, and therefore have to get another job and so then can't spend as much time with the kid which can be bad if it's a single mom or dad (although single dads are very uncommon).

[apple]

One word ADOPTION.

If these women are unfit parents, there are thousands of good people waiting for a baby to love and raise. Why kill it? Because a girl may loose her figer? One child will not ruin a womans figer if she works a little to keep it. But one abortion can do so much damage to a womans personality, self-image, and uterus.

[Faerie]

sorry, still not buying the "attractiveness" crap...i've met WAY too many women who were not just AS attractive, they were more attractive after having their children...

and i'd rather see single parents than unneccesary abortions...and like i said :ADOPTION