The Nation of Deseret

[FunkyTown]

Do you mean the James Strang who claimed to have succeeded Joseph Smith, set up his church on an island, and proclaimed himself king?

James Strang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hahah. Beat me to it. I was gonna bring up the Strangites, too.

[TeancumsSword]

Do you mean the James Strang who claimed to have succeeded Joseph Smith, set up his church on an island, and proclaimed himself king?

James Strang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes.

The Book of the Law of the Lord is a good read for any person interested in ideas about the Kingdom of God and it's organization and offices.

[gabelpa]

Yes.

The Book of the Law of the Lord is a good read for any person interested in ideas about the Kingdom of God and it's organization and offices.

Even if the source is an "Apostate" one?

[deseretgov]

Even if the source is an "Apostate" one?

Good question.

[Guest DeborahC]

When the Church Authorities set up the Nation of Desert, then I'll join.

[TeancumsSword]

Even if the source is an "Apostate" one?

I believe the word "Apostate" is a word used a little to freeely. Why not never examine any book by any non-LDS? Why not have Deseret Book throw out any book by non-LDS writers?

If you don't mind I'll follow this counsel...

"13 aWe believe in being bhonest, true, cchaste, dbenevolent, virtuous, and in doing egood to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything hvirtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

[Hemidakota]

"I do disagree that the church will be the governing body during the millenium."

I do believe it will be the government of the millenium and controlling factor for a thousand years since the Savior will reign.

Now, there will factions and groups throughout the earth that is left but two nations in the end that will resembled the this government will have two capitols: New Jerusalem and the old Jerusalem

[gabelpa]

I believe the word "Apostate" is a word used a little to freeely. Why not never examine any book by any non-LDS? Why not have Deseret Book throw out any book by non-LDS writers?

If you don't mind I'll follow this counsel...

"13 aWe believe in being bhonest, true, cchaste, dbenevolent, virtuous, and in doing egood to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything hvirtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

One little niggle,I don't live in America right now,and have no access to a brick-and-mortar Deseret Book store, As a business, they can do whatever they like,as they cater to a specific demographic,and AFAIK are not affiliated with the LDS Church, they just sell stuff that the Mormons would want to buy. On my shelves at home,I have the Bhagavad Ghita, Qur'an, etc.

You can do whatever you like, but bear in mind that this "book of the laws of the Lord" was given in "revelation" to someone who,afterJS's death splintered from the Mormons, along with the RLDS to form their own groups while Brigham Young took his lot out of the country.

As far as I am concerned, James Strang apostacized from the Church, and as such was outside the realms of the Priesthood governance of God's kingdom.

[TeancumsSword]

One little niggle,I don't live in America right now,and have no access to a brick-and-mortar Deseret Book store, As a business, they can do whatever they like,as they cater to a specific demographic,and AFAIK are not affiliated with the LDS Church, they just sell stuff that the Mormons would want to buy. On my shelves at home,I have the Bhagavad Ghita, Qur'an, etc.

You can do whatever you like, but bear in mind that this "book of the laws of the Lord" was given in "revelation" to someone who,afterJS's death splintered from the Mormons, along with the RLDS to form their own groups while Brigham Young took his lot out of the country.

As far as I am concerned, James Strang apostacized from the Church, and as such was outside the realms of the Priesthood governance of God's kingdom.

Let's clear at least one thing up... Deseret Book is owned by the LDS Church, so ,yes, they are affiliated with the LDS church.

Please refrain from telling me to "bear in mind", as if I am unaware of the circumstances surrounding James Strang or the history of the LDS church.

You can apply the "apostate" label to anyone you please, but I generally find that for myself judgment before investigation to be rather unbecoming, which is why I recommended it for someone researching ideas about the Kingdom of God. I didn't say I believed it, just that it was interesting. Why are folks like you so easy to cry "Apostacy" and plug your ears?

[deseretgov]

Well sorry I;'ve been abesnt from the thread. We've gotten a little off topic. I've been busy with making updates for the website. Also there's been talk of reorganizing the NoD.

[The_Seeker]

Reorganized? How so?

[deseretgov]

Well from the meetings I've been in on. A new constitution would be put in place. It would be more strutrually similiar to the US Consitution. Council of Fifty would take on a legislative only role in a tricameral legislature. The Standing Chairman would no longer be the leader of the Nation of Deseret.

This was brought up because of concerns that the Nation of Deseret would be seen as a religious entity. Another concern is that the current Council of Fifty and Natino of Deseret could potentially draw negative attention to the Church. Nothing is set yet. But from the meetings I've been invited to it looks like a real possibility.

[The_Seeker]

This new "nation" sounds interesting, but I'm still leery of the idea. Could becoming a member of the Nation of Deseret be seen as treason (or something along those lines) by the US government?

[deseretgov]

We allow citizen to retain their American(or whatever their current citizenship).

The legal definition of treason in the US Constitution is:

Section 3 - Treason

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Nation of Deseret is not an enemy to the United States. It is our goal to maintain peaceful and friendly relations with the United States of America.

Now if we told everyone to hoard their guns and ammo and move to a small compound in the Maontains, then you should probably worry. :)

[The_Seeker]

I'm sure you are not encouraging anyone to hoard guns, stock up on ammo, and flee to the mountains. :) I'm just trying to think of how this might play out.

It seems to me that any nation needs a physical space to claim (land). How do the leaders of the Nation of Deseret intend to acquire this land? What will it do if the current owners of the land are not willing to give it up?

If citizenship is open to anyone in the world, what happens to whatever members do not live within the physical boundaries of the Nation of Deseret when the nation does acquire land? Are they expected to immigrate to Deseret, or stay at home as citizens-in-exile?

What kinds of laws would a member of this nation be expected to follow? It seems from what you've posted thus far that all citizens of Deseret would hold dual citizenship with whatever other country they live in currently. What would happen if the laws of Deseret and the laws of the other country conflict? What if the the citizen's parent country declares war on Deseret? (I could also ask how Deseret expects to enforce any laws it does make, but it doesn't look like you even have that kind of infrastructure set up yet.)

I hope you don't feel I'm trying to pick on you and your organization, but these are just some of the thoughts that make me uncomfortable about this idea.

[deseretgov]

I'm sure you are not encouraging anyone to hoard guns, stock up on ammo, and flee to the mountains. :) I'm just trying to think of how this might play out.

It seems to me that any nation needs a physical space to claim (land). How do the leaders of the Nation of Deseret intend to acquire this land? What will it do if the current owners of the land are not willing to give it up?

The NoD already has land claimed. It includes Idaho, Utah, Eastern part of Nevada, A few southern counties of California, Arizona, western part of New Mexico, western part of Colorado, and the western part of Wyoming. The acqisition of this land would be accomplished through citizenship, dual control, and dominant control.

Citizenship means that anyone who becomes a citizen would allow their land to be claimed as part of the NoD.

Dual Control means that we would set up a parrallel system of control to the US one. For example a NoD version of the BLM would be set up.

Dominant Control means that when the NoD becomes accepted as the legitimate government of the territory then we would be accepted as legal authority of the claimed land.

These would probably happen in the order listed. Each has it's own problems and benefits.

If citizenship is open to anyone in the world, what happens to whatever members do not live within the physical boundaries of the Nation of Deseret when the nation does acquire land? Are they expected to immigrate to Deseret, or stay at home as citizens-in-exile?

Well statehood is also open to any place wishing to become a state. So if a population wishes to gain statehood they may. But if a individual or family wishes to gain citizenship then they may. If the NoD has control over it's territory then they may immirgate through NoD channels. They also have the choice to stay where they are.

What kinds of laws would a member of this nation be expected to follow?

Whatever laws woud be enacted by the NoD. Of course the NoD may not enact any laws that contradict it's Constitution.

Also the goal of the NoD currently is not to enact laws but to gain recognition. There's no point in making up a bunch of laws if they don't help anybody.

It seems from what you've posted thus far that all citizens of Deseret would hold dual citizenship with whatever other country they live in currently. What would happen if the laws of Deseret and the laws of the other country conflict?

They would be expected to follow te laws of the dominant nation.

What if the the citizen's parent country declares war on Deseret?

It depends on what state the NoD is in. If they declare war on us right now they're wasting their time.

If they declare war on us when we actually are making progress, then it just proves how anti-freedom the United States has become.

If we are full nation and they declare war on us then all peaceable means would be used to resolve the situation. If that methood fails. I would imagine that the people through elected representatives would be asked their input.

Keep in mind that the NoD will not force it's laws on anyone who doesn't want it. Only those who want to be a citizen will be. In this way the NoD will be elected by the people. If the USA declares war on the NoD then they do not care about the freedom and sovreignity of it's citizens.

(I could also ask how Deseret expects to enforce any laws it does make, but it doesn't look like you even have that kind of infrastructure set up yet.)

You are correct there is very little infrastructure up right now. It is one of the things that will naturally grow as the NoD progresses.

I hope you don't feel I'm trying to pick on you and your organization, but these are just some of the thoughts that make me uncomfortable about this idea.

No I don't feel like you are picking on it. These are very valid concerns. I hope I was able to give you some helpful answers.

[The_Seeker]

The NoD already has land claimed. It includes Idaho, Utah, Eastern part of Nevada, A few southern counties of California, Arizona, western part of New Mexico, western part of Colorado, and the western part of Wyoming. The acqisition of this land would be accomplished through citizenship, dual control, and dominant control.

Citizenship means that anyone who becomes a citizen would allow their land to be claimed as part of the NoD.

Dual Control means that we would set up a parrallel system of control to the US one. For example a NoD version of the BLM would be set up.

Dominant Control means that when the NoD becomes accepted as the legitimate government of the territory then we would be accepted as legal authority of the claimed land.

These would probably happen in the order listed. Each has it's own problems and benefits.

I still don't see how this would work out well. Why do you think the US government is going to willingly surrender claim to part of it's own land, no matter how many of the inhabitants of it say they want to form a new nation? It didn't work for the Confederate States of America, what makes you think things would be different today?

It depends on what state the NoD is in. If they declare war on us right now they're wasting their time.

Yes, at this point there is not much reason for any country to declare war on the NoD. :) I wouldn't be surprised if your website is being monitored on a few watchlists, however.

If they declare war on us when we actually are making progress, then it just proves how anti-freedom the United States has become.

If we are full nation and they declare war on us then all peaceable means would be used to resolve the situation. If that methood fails. I would imagine that the people through elected representatives would be asked their input.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I think your view of how things will turn out is overly optimistic. I think that if you continue on this course and your movement gains momentum, it will only be a matter of time until the US will try to crush you. Thus, war would be pretty much inevitable IMO. You said that you are not encouraging anyone to head to a compound in the mountains with plenty of guns and ammo, but isn't that what would be needed eventually if this effort is going to succeed? Personally I don't see any way around it.

Keep in mind that the NoD will not force it's laws on anyone who doesn't want it. Only those who want to be a citizen will be. In this way the NoD will be elected by the people. If the USA declares war on the NoD then they do not care about the freedom and sovreignity of it's citizens.

Looping back to the land issue: you said that at first the NoD will only claim land that is given it by it's citizens. Eventually you hope to gain enough critical mass so that you can claim an entire region. (Please correct me if I have this wrong.)

I would think that the first stage would net you a rather patchy claim to a bunch of land that may or may not be physically connected. If you do reach the next stage, wouldn't you be left with a scattered group of people who do not want to be part of your nation, who refuse to give up their land to the NoD or recognize it's sovereignty over them? What will you do with these people? Will they become refugees if they don't want to be citizens of Deseret?

No I don't feel like you are picking on it. These are very valid concerns. I hope I was able to give you some helpful answers.

I do appreciate your answers to my questions. I am certainly no expert on the topic of creating nations (far from it!), so perhaps there are things that I am missing that makes this idea seem feasible to you and the leaders of this organization. Personally, I can't see this effort turning out well if it gains strength.

[Hemidakota]

When the nation falls within, I don't expect much from the govenment if others seek land grab.

[The_Seeker]

^^You have a point there, Hemi. :) Perhaps the NoD is not expecting to kick this into full force until something like that occurs?

[rayhale]

deseretgov, on the NoD website in the Why Choose Deseret section, I feel it is written unprofessionally. Mainly the statements on Economy and Finances. In addition, your comparison to the Presidential Candidates is written unprofessionally. It just brings up hot button topics, like CEOs that destroy a company, yet get a bonus, while a schoolteacher that has students that become doctors, lawyers, and other major jobs, get barely over minimum wage. You don’t make any solutions, just state problems.

[Just_A_Guy]

Not wishing to be rude, deseretgov, but I looked at the Nation of Deseret's store and noticed the "flag" on the merchandise that you're selling. Does Mike Jensen know that the "Nation of Deseret" is using his copyrighted flag design (or a pretty obvious derivative thereof) for its own commercial profit?

Edited December 30, 2008 by Just_A_Guy

[deseretgov]

Well the NoD is kind of going back to the drawing board for now. But the NoD flag does have some similarities to the Mormon Heritage Flag but there are some distinct differences. The central portion of the NoD flag is centered while the central portion of the MH flag is offset to the left. The MH flag has two thin blue cricles that surround the star. the NoD flag has one thick blue circle with fifty embattlements along the inside edge of the circle. Both Flags contain a twelve pointed star in the center of the circle. However the star of the MH flag has hollow rays with a blue line down the center of each ray. The NoD flag has solid rays and also has the white outline of the Star of David in the center of the larger star.

It is obvious that the two flags are similar but they are clearly NOT the same flag.

[deseretgov]

rayhale, I am currently rewriting the NoD website. The result, while using the same template, will be vastely different than the current website.

[Justice]

I think it's unfortunate that this thread seems to be misleading some newer members of the Church into thinking this is something they can join and still be a part of God's kingdom.

I think it should be removed.

[gabelpa]

I have felt from the start that this NoD is a hairbrained scheme, with little planning and no legal consultation. The flag must have review by a copyright lawyer or two to make sure it is not infringing. Land appropriation needs a legal review, as Imminent Domain doesn't work the other way.

It seems like there are very many pie in the sky ideas with little forethought as to how things will proceed. There is definately no Church backing as the Prophet has not even been formally approached concerning your efforts. If he were, I am fairly certain those wishing to organise and join the NoD would be warned away from such actions.