Priorities

[Misshalfway]

Well, perhaps that is because you don't see what I see. The church very much directs us in terms of these big moral issues. Abortion is one. The church is against abortion except in the case of rape and incest and if the life of the mother is threatened.

The church may not come out like they did with Prop 8. But make no mistake the church is a leader and a loud voice with regards to these issues.

[Misshalfway]

PS. Ceeboo, are you sure everyone that you read is active LDS?

[hordak]

Hi Hordak,

NEVER, in any way shape or form, make excuses or rationalize a practice that whatever way you spin it, is simply put, destroying the creation of the VERY CREATOR. Legal or not, the stance of the Catholic Church is clear on it.

God bless,

Carl

I'm not rationalizing the destruction of a fetus.(I'm Pro life) I am saying make use of the already destroyed fetus.

For lack of a better analogy think of hunting. Thousands of people hunt legally every season.If I was against hunting (like i am abortion) i would rather have people use the animals that they have already killed, then take the antlers and toss the rest in the trash.

You wouldn't outlaw eating game to keep people from hunting.How would keeping fetal Stem cell research reduce abortion?

[Guest ceeboo]

Misshalfway,

A short reply as to not go on a ceeboo rant.:)

I am very happy to hear that you do have strong LDS stances on this from your leadership.

I will pass on the " except for cases " part, other than simply saying I ( Catholic ) am not allowed to have that negotiation.

Why, if the LDS have this guidance and strong stance, do these boards look as they do ??

Short enough ??:):) from your non contentious Catholic friend.

Carl

[Hemidakota]

I am so glad that President-elect Obama is going to immediately tackle such important issues as funding abortion with taxpayer dollars outside of the US. Bravo. Just what we need so that other nations will love and respect us......money to terminate unwanted children. Surprised? I'm not.

many pitfalls this man will fall-into as he will appease those who put him there.

[candyprpl]

Many years ago when I felt it was a woman's choice I worked in a Doctor's office (3 doctors) and they performed abortions. At first it didn't bother me. Then when I started noticing how many were using it as a form of birth control or just out of plain ignorance it started me thinking a lot about it. My position in the office was to sometimes schedule these abortions -- it didn't take long for me to tell the Office Manager I didn't feel comfortable doing that any longer. The OM then did all the scheduling.

There is one case that stands out in my mind as I think about this now. She was 16 and had been raped by a person of not her race. She carried that baby to term and gave it up for adoption. She's my hero!!!!!!!!!

[candyprpl]

P.S. President Elect Obama will do many things that I don't agree with, he will be my President none the less. Right now I'm more upset with my state's Senators and Congress persons who are to represent ME to the President. They are who I bombard with letters of protest.

[Guest Godless]

Yeah, I can't go here either. Abortion is the last of all effective solutions! Getting pregnant is under most circumstances something that people can control. And for those who find themselves in unwanted pregnancies, there are far better ways to solve such problems. And I think if you were to profile those who got abortions, I think your would find a world of hurt and inner anguish over the decision. And if they didn't feel that way, well, that would be a sad sad day.

In my opinion, abortion is the most selfish choice a person could make! ( I do not speak to circumstances of incest and rape)

It wasn't my intention to try to downplay the difficulty of such a decision, and I apologize if it seemed that way. I myself know that it's a very excruciating choice to make. My mother gave birth to my youngest brother knowing full well that it could have killed her, and it very nearly did. Her choice to continue the pregnancy could not have been an easy one, just as the choice to terminate it would have been incredibly difficult and painful.

[Guest ceeboo]

.How would keeping fetal Stem cell research reduce abortion?

My friend hordak,

Another short answer as to answer fully would take about 9 pages of this thread and I am not sure how far apart we ( Catholic/LDS ) are on these issues.

There are several layers to this but I will try and connect the dots as to your contribution.

To use the embrionic cells ( I am assuming you are speaking of the ones that ar frozen, although this topic goes MUCH MUCH further ) you must destroy ( kill ) the embryo, or it has no use in the lab. To destroy the embryo ( from the Catholic perspective ) is playing with the very POTENTIAL of the creation process that the Creator made. Many have said ( like you ) that why not, those will just get thrown away anyway. No, I am sorry but the Catholic stance is that we can NEVER justify the killing or destroying of that potential creation.

It is simply put, NOT AN OPTION NOR IS IT UP TO EACH CATHOLIC TO DEVELOP A SIDE ON IT. IT IS A NON NEGOTIABLE GOD FEARING STAND that I and many other Catholics will take to our graves.

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway,

A short reply as to not go on a ceeboo rant.:)

I am very happy to hear that you do have strong LDS stances on this from your leadership.

I will pass on the " except for cases " part, other than simply saying I ( Catholic ) am not allowed to have that negotiation.

Why, if the LDS have this guidance and strong stance, do these boards look as they do ??

Short enough ??:):) from your non contentious Catholic friend.

Carl

Well, I think for one major reason. The church allows everyone to think and speak and vote for themselves. While we are emphatically encouraged to follow our prophet and his counsel and the counsel of the twelve, the church does not control its people and how they think. They teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.

To most LDS people, the very idea of abortion is abhorrent to the senses. I live in Mormon Central, Utah. So, I rub shoulders with lots of them. I don't think you will find many LDS people having abortions or supporting legislation that supports abortion or Row v. Wade. Abortion alone is one of the reasons Utah is a red state. Our values for life and children and chastity are very strong. And it is often that we catch heat in the neighborhood for our strong stance on moral issues. California is the case in point.

But I do think you will find variance in opinion about how we deal with abortion and under what circumstances it should be legislated. I don't think it is a question of whether we oppose it or not. Perhaps just an issue of how. The church doesn't legislate such practice. They speak only by way of invitation to the individual to live right and stand up for right wherever we find ourselves.

With regards to this board, you are going to have to show me specific quotes that alarm you for me to truly see what you are seeing. Godless, for example, is not an active LDS member. So it doesn't surprise me that his view is different and I gave my opposing opinion to his comments.

[Misshalfway]

It wasn't my intention to try to downplay the difficulty of such a decision, and I apologize if it seemed that way. I myself know that it's a very excruciating choice to make. My mother gave birth to my youngest brother knowing full well that it could have killed her, and it very nearly did. Her choice to continue the pregnancy could not have been an easy one, just as the choice to terminate it would have been incredibly difficult and painful.

I think I know that about you, Godless. I feel you as a compassionate human. :)

It was the words "healing" and abortion in the same sentence that caused me pause. I don't think there is anything healing at all about such an act. Even for those who are victims of some violent crime. I think you are forever changed after such an action.

[hordak]

My friend hordak,

Another short answer as to answer fully would take about 9 pages of this thread and I am not sure how far apart we ( Catholic/LDS ) are on these issues.

There are several layers to this but I will try and connect the dots as to your contribution.

To use the embrionic cells ( I am assuming you are speaking of the ones that ar frozen, although this topic goes MUCH MUCH further ) you must destroy ( kill ) the embryo, or it has no use in the lab. To destroy the embryo ( from the Catholic perspective ) is playing with the very POTENTIAL of the creation process that the Creator made. Many have said ( like you ) that why not, those will just get thrown away anyway. No, I am sorry but the Catholic stance is that we can NEVER justify the killing or destroying of that potential creation.

It is simply put, NOT AN OPTION NOR IS IT UP TO EACH CATHOLIC TO DEVELOP A SIDE ON IT. IT IS A NON NEGOTIABLE GOD FEARING STAND that I and many other Catholics will take to our graves.

God bless,

Carl

I guess i don't see the difference. To me tossing it in the trash is killing it just as much killing it then using the cells.

We will have to agree to disagree.

For the record my opinion on this is my own and does not reflect the opinions of the TCoJCoLS

[candyprpl]

I guess i don't see the difference. To me tossing it in the trash is killing it just as much killing it then using the cells.

We will have to agree to disagree.

For the record my opinion on this is my own and does not reflect the opinions of the TCoJCoLS

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. My mom always told me that -- I think this is one of those cases. Killing it the first time is wrong choice number one.

[Guest ceeboo]

Well, I think for one major reason. The church allows everyone to think and speak and vote for themselves. While we are emphatically encouraged to follow our prophet and his counsel and the counsel of the twelve, the church does not control its people and how they think. They teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

Man I wish my Church would let me think and speak and vote for myself!!!!:)

God bless,

Carl your controlled, robotic, former zygote that is a product of one of your exceptions :)

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

Man I wish my Church would let me think and speak and vote for myself!!!!:)

God bless,

Carl your controlled, robotic, former zygote that is a product of one of your exceptions :)

Oh gosh! You don't think that is what I was inferring do you?

I can see I am going to have to beat you with a wet noodle!

Edited November 13, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

I was going to say also, you should go and attend a priesthood session of conference sometime and see what our men, for example, are counseled to correct in themselves on moral issues. Trust me when I say that we are commanded to fly right. :)

[Guest ceeboo]

Oh gosh! You don't think that is what I was inferring do you?

NO NO MISSHALFWAY,

Ceeboo ( obviously ) doesn't come across as he intends to at times.

I was simply trying to lighten up a very deep and personal topic to many.

Sorry for my failure to communicate that in a much clearer and warmer way :):)

I REALLY did appreciate your comments and I think many of your points were right on the mark. ( especially the ps one )

Your very appreciative friend

Carl:)

[bytor2112]

My post was not intended to start another abortion debate.....just wanted to point out that not only are our tax dollars being wasted....but will continue to be and for very unrighteous purposes. I HOPE he will CHANGE his mind....not likely.

[hordak]

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. My mom always told me that -- I think this is one of those cases. Killing it the first time is wrong choice number one.

? How is it two wrongs?

Of course abortion is wrong. But it is done, the first wrong is done. Now you have this fetus that will not live and you can toss it in the trash or use it to try heal someone.

[bytor2112]

? How is it two wrongs?

Of course abortion is wrong. But it is done, the first wrong is done. Now you have this fetus that will not live and you can toss it in the trash or use it to try heal someone.

This fetus would have been someone's son or daughter..... a beloved son or daughter of God......until someone ruthlessly, violently suctioned the life from out of the mother's womb......and statistically it was likely done because the would be mother didn't want to be inconvenienced by her poor decisions.

Edited November 13, 2008 by bytor2112

[MarginOfError]

Mexico City Policy

Even after Clinton rescinded this 'gag order', also known as the 'Mexico City Policy,' (MCP) the use of USAID for performing abortions was prohibited. The NGO's that received the USAID, if they paid for abortions at all, were required to do so with other, non-governmental funding. GW Bush reinstated the MCP when he took office. The result was that NGO's who presented abortion as a means of family planning were denied USAID. While this was a noble gesture, it seems to have backfired.

The NGO's that were denied the USAID after Bush reinstated the MCP were primarily concerned with contraception, family planning, and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS. Having been denied their funding, many of them had to cut back services, programs, staff, etc. This has led to reduced distribution of contraception, a greater number of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies, and more rapid spread of HIV/AIDS. The increase in unwanted pregnancies may also be increasing the number of abortions in the Carribean and Africa--remember, the NGO's weren't directly paying for these to begin with.

It's important to remember that the NGO's that took the hit of the MCP aren't concerned solely with abortion, but teach very strongly the use of contraception. It's much easier and cheaper to prevent a pregnancy than it is to abort it.

What's more, many African communities still hold a hierarchal system with roots in the old tribal systems. In the tribal systems, it wasn't uncommon for a man to have more than one wife. In the modern equivalent, often times, men aren't considered real men unless they have multiple sexual partners.

Then we get to complicate the issue with beliefs surrounding HIV/AIDS. One such belief is that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. This leads to a higher rate of rape and incest--including, if I remember correctly, two LDS sister missionaries in South Africa. The NGO's that were battling these myths and problems are the same NGO's that were denied funding by the MCP.

Are we really sure we did anyone any favors by instating it? Or is this another case of trying to impose our own morals on a societal system that has very little in common with our own? Quite simply, the Mexico City Policy has probably ended more lives than it has saved.

Mexico City Policy (religioustolerance.org--This is the most unbiased description of the policy I've found)

THE “MEXICO CITY POLICY” AND ITS EFFECTS ON HIV/AIDS SERVICES IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA Allegra A. Jones, Editor Boston College Third World Law Journal (2003–2004).

Embryonic Stem Cell Research

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken no stance either for or against embryonic stem cell research. I quote from the Church Website

The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not taken a position regarding the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes. The absence of a position should not be interpreted as support for or opposition to any other statement made by Church members, whether they are for or against embryonic stem cell research.

I interpret form your post, bytor, that you personally are opposed to embryonic stem cell research. To this I have no objection. But the tone of your post is such that I have the impression that you think all members of the Church should share your opinion. Let's just be clear that such is not the case, and under current revelations, we can not declare that embryonic stem cell research is or is not immoral.

Conclusion

These are murky issues. Surely, we don't want to open dialogue's that promote abortion, but denying USAID to the organizations that do this leads to more abortions. And that doesn't take into consideration the lives affected by HIV/AIDS care. Either way you gain some good and you gain some evil.

Perhaps when we come across these controversial issues, we might be well served to try to listen to the other side and attempt to understand why they think and feel the way they do--regardless of whether or not you agree with the conclusion. This kind of knee-jerk politics only serves to ignite more ignorance from the "dumb panicky animals*" that human beings are as a collective. We're better than that, and it's time to rise above the nonsense.

* - You've got to watch Men In Black :)

[Guest ceeboo]

bytor,

May I suggest a conversion to Catholic :):):)

It seems you would fit in very nicely!!!

[abqfriend]

I am a Catholic-and my Church does encourage me to vote in a certain way on moral issues, but I have a choice in how I vote-it is called democracy.

My church does not kick me out if I vote in the way I choose.

My vote is between me and my God.

-Carol

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi MOE, :)

If I may, How can the first Presidency of the LDS ( I think that is the very top as far as us mortals go, no?) have NO STANCE on something like this :confused:

I was told by another LDS member that the LDS leadership did indeed have strong stances and offered direction and teachings to their members. I guess that is not the case??:confused:

[Guest ceeboo]

I am a Catholic-and my Church does encourage me to vote in a certain way on moral issues, but I have a choice in how I vote-it is called democracy.

My church does not kick me out if I vote in the way I choose.

My vote is between me and my God.

-Carol

I agree 100 % with you Carol.

The difference, as I am seeing, is that the Catholic leadership does not waver and indeed takes a VERY STRONG stance, regardless of the consequences or the popularity it may or may not cause. In regards to moral issues, the Catholic Church is, has been, and boldly, clearly takes its stance.

Edited November 13, 2008 by ceeboo