Planned Parenthood and Christianity ?????

[MarginOfError]

More insults huh...

what a surprise.

Post something that isn't worthy of insult and I won't insult it. Meanwhile, I'm anxiously awaiting your big long post.

[threepercent]

wingnut, get a grip.

1. in the "Hypothetical scenario" I presented no rape took place.

2. in the "Hypothetical scenarios" you presented only rape took place.

I stated that IF you made abortion illegal (aint happening) and kept the 3 "exception rules" you would have many women stuck with either accusing their partner of rape or carrying the child. that is a fact.

another problem with the 3 exception rule is the "health of the mother rule", in that its easy to show that pregnancy in general is hard on a woman body. now we are back to abortions of convenience. how do you argue that the mental health of the woman would not suffer if she was required to carry full term?

the standard 3 exception rule is for a moral society. we don't have that.

I didn't say I think there should be no exceptions. I don't support making abortion illegal unless it is returned to a states rights issue.

there is no such thing as medical proof of rape, there is only medical proof that a sexual act took place.

had you bothered to read my posts, you would know I have already argued that if the woman did not make the choice to get pregnant (rape) then she should have the option.

if you wanna get all huffy, I also think that an abortion should not be granted if the father is known and wants the child, but this couldn't happen either because there would have to be a rape exception here as well.

what I am saying is don't make a law that requires a woman to claim rape as the only avenue to get an abortion.

[PeterVenkman]

Post something that isn't worthy of insult and I won't insult it. Meanwhile, I'm anxiously awaiting your big long post.

Um, why should I offer you my perspective on an issue you request when you have met me with nothing but contempt? You've called me names and insulted my form of communication. I don't owe you anything, and I never agreed to write anything out for you.

[zookeeper]

Here is the official statement on abortion from LDS.org...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.

The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:

• Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or

• A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or

• A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct.

The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion.

~So that says it for me!...Remember that annoying song in primary? "Follow the prophet, don't go astray!...":angel:

[threepercent]

you are 100% correct zoo.

note who the 3 exceptions are directed at. It is not legislative in nature.

[Guest ceeboo]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

Exceptions, hypotheticals, enviornment, what if's, WOW!!!!!

Disecting this and looking at every possible angle as if it were discussing the best way to bake apple pie. WOW!!!!!

WOW!!!! This thread is seriously very upsetting to ceeboo ( I think the OP might need a break from this thread )

To ALL MY FELLOW CHRISTIANS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROMOTES, ENCOURAGES, AND FINANCIALLY PROFITS HUGE DOLLARS BY THE CONTINUED PRACTICE OF ABORTION TO THE TUNE OF OVER 280,000 CREATIONS PER YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

I AM SORRY TO SAY, I AM VERY DISCOURAGED, AS WELL AS CONFUSED BY OTHER CHRISTIAN POSTERS HERE AS WELL AS THE LACK OF A STANCE AGAINST THIS EVIL

CULTURE OF DEATH ACT.

SORRY AGAIN,

Carl

[PeterVenkman]

Notice that the official statement from the church also uses the term "fetuses." How dare I use such a term to dehumanize babies.

And Carl, I have already answered this. Planned Parenthood's abortions only account for 3% of its activities. It is not bad to provide people with sexual education, resources and support. It's not bad to provide free STD testing for poor people or to refer adoptions. It's not bad to inform people about their options.

You are seeing this very black and white...it is an either/or proposition for you, and, in my opinion, that is rarely how the world works.

Edited November 18, 2008 by PeterVenkman

[KristofferUmfrey]

Bytor, my opinions are my opinions after all. I am part of the church so it is silly to say that I value my opinions on this issue more than the church's opinions on this issue. We are part of the same organization.

And yes, I just want to defend what some people consider so disgusting. The alternative absolutely would be worse. Abortion is inevitably going to happen. People are going to do it no matter what. You are so quick to say "disgusting" and "evil" when it comes to abortion, but what about some of the alternatives for people who are going to get one anyway? I'm really sorry if this offends you, but I would rather a woman have a safe, clean partial birth abortion than to have a back alley abortion with a coat hanger, or for a teen mother to toss her newborn infant into the trash can. These things happen, and they can be avoided with the right to an abortion. I consider those things disgusting and evil.

Sure, I agree that adoption is a better choice and I would not choose to abort a child, but the decision must be available.

That women who use abortion as birth control (the 93%) might have to suffer infection from back-alley abortions doesn't make me lose one wink at night.

[Misshalfway]

~So that says it for me!...Remember that annoying song in primary? "Follow the prophet, don't go astray!...":angel:

( with both hands on my hips and with some profound hair flipping) I am highly offended that you would insinuate that this song is annoying! I mean, I never!!!

( the above post is completely and totally tongue and check. Any similarity to seriousness is purely coincidental.) :p:p

[PeterVenkman]

Kristoffer I thought I was simply too disgusting and evil for you to carry on a conversation with. Why are you still here getting in the last word?

[bytor2112]

Peter....you really have to stop saying ONLY 3%......that equates to a whole lot of abortions. and that is so misleading. Three percent of all services performed....that is hardly a fair comparison when you are comparing it to HIV testing or breast cancer screening....apples and orange trees.

During the year of 2005-06, besides reporting that 264,943 children were killed by medical and surgical abortions performed by its clinics, it also reported a record income, including a record amount of taxpayer funding. Planned Parenthood’s total income for the year was $902.8 million, with a $55.8 million profit.

“The final category of Planned Parenthood revenue sources is you and me — the American taxpayer,” Sedlak continues. “I am sorry to report to you that Planned Parenthood reported receiving taxpayer funds totaling $305.3 million — a whopping $32.6 million (12 percent) more than last year. This means that taxpayer money now accounts for 34 percent of Planned Parenthood's income.”

[Moksha]

I have read some disturbing things on this forum ( to me ) regarding the " support " and " good " that this organization does.

God bless,

Carl

Hey, the More Good Foundation does the best that it can!

[Guest SisterofJared]

Ceeboo,

Unfortunately there are always some who seem to represent the opposite point of view. The vast majority of latter day saints are fiercely against abortion and do not support Planned Parenthood.... or should we call it Planned Murderhood? That's a perfect name for it.

Peter, here is a video for you. If it doesn't touch you, then I'm afraid you are beyond reach.

YouTube - The Pro Life ad that can change your mind.

Sister of Jared

[MarginOfError]

Ceeboo,

Unfortunately there are always some who seem to represent the opposite point of view. The vast majority of latter day saints are fiercely against abortion and do not support Planned Parenthood.... or should we call it Planned Murderhood? That's a perfect name for it.

Peter, here is a video for you. If it doesn't touch you, then I'm afraid you are beyond reach.

YouTube - The Pro Life ad that can change your mind.

Sister of Jared

I wasn't aware that seeing the other side of the argument was a bad thing. That statement really makes me wonder what you would consider an informed decision.

[Misshalfway]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

Exceptions, hypotheticals, enviornment, what if's, WOW!!!!!

Disecting this and looking at every possible angle as if it were discussing the best way to bake apple pie. WOW!!!!!

WOW!!!! This thread is seriously very upsetting to ceeboo ( I think the OP might need a break from this thread )

To ALL MY FELLOW CHRISTIANS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROMOTES, ENCOURAGES, AND FINANCIALLY PROFITS HUGE DOLLARS BY THE CONTINUED PRACTICE OF ABORTION TO THE TUNE OF OVER 280,000 CREATIONS PER YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

I AM SORRY TO SAY, I AM VERY DISCOURAGED, AS WELL AS CONFUSED BY OTHER CHRISTIAN POSTERS HERE AS WELL AS THE LACK OF A STANCE AGAINST THIS EVIL

CULTURE OF DEATH ACT.

SORRY AGAIN,

Carl

I am just wondering if all Catholics follow the Vatican to the letter. Any Catholics ever had an abortion or considered one? Are there Catholics that perhaps vary in their political views on the subject and still call themselves Christian? Are there any Catholics that perhaps choose a pro-choice stance? And do you take the same hard line with them?

I appreciate your opinion and give you every right to your observative view, but I wonder sometimes if your judgments are a little too black and white.

I think also that you fail to see that the church views such actions as sinful....absolutely sinful and any member of the LDS faith who involved themselves in this would face disciplinary action. And to my knowledge, most if not all Latter-day Saints who find themselves in an unwanted pregnancy use the churches LDS Family Services and place their babies thru adoption. I have seen the process work over and over. And the rest of us married folks who find ourselves pregnant celebrate the new addition to our families in gratitude, even when the rest of the world balks at us having large families.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Misshalfway

[BenRaines]

Mine too are black and white. In my opinion abortion is wrong. An earlier poster said that he doesn't consider it a life until it takes a breath of air on its own without being connected to the mother. By his definition could abort up until moment of delivery. So wrong.

Ben Raines

[Misshalfway]

I don't disagree with your black and white stance or anyone's on the issue of abortion as an institution. In that sense, I stand firmly in the black and white with you.

What I disagree with the view that no one is taking a stance and that the fact that some on this thread are exploring different sides of the issue somehow makes them less Christian. I think it is an unfair characterization of the Church to say that no one is taking a stand and an unfair representation of Latter-day saints who in their everyday walk stand firm against such evil......even if they do explore the issue in order to understand it.

[Misshalfway]

Mine too are black and white. In my opinion abortion is wrong. An earlier poster said that he doesn't consider it a life until it takes a breath of air on its own without being connected to the mother. By his definition could abort up until moment of delivery. So wrong.

Ben Raines

I didn't read what that earlier poster has said. Sorry I missed that. It is an outrageous statement and made clearly by someone who hasn't been pregnant.

I hope that you can see what I was characterizing as black and white thinking and what I wasn't.

Let me be clear about my own position. I am absolutely against the practice of abortion. I stand firmly with the church on its position because I do think there is room for exceptions.....extremely rare exceptions. And I am against the practices and ideology of planned parenthood. I still remember my father teaching me concerning it. I understand this is one of the main reasons the church couldn't endorse the girl scouts like they do the boy scouts of America.

I still think that there ARE many of us even on this thread how are standing up against it..... including both you and me.

[Guest ceeboo]

I am just wondering if all Catholics follow the Vatican to the letter. Any Catholics ever had an abortion or considered one? Are there Catholics that perhaps vary in their political views on the subject and still call themselves Christian? Are there any Catholics that perhaps choose a pro-choice stance? And do you take the same hard line with them?

I appreciate your opinion and give you every right to your observative view, but I wonder sometimes if your judgments are a little too black and white.

I think also that you fail to see that the church views such actions as sinful....absolutely sinful and any member of the LDS faith who involved themselves in this would face disciplinary action. And to my knowledge, most if not all Latter-day Saints who find themselves in an unwanted pregnancy use the churches LDS Family Services and place their babies thru adoption. I have seen the process work over and over. And the rest of us married folks who find ourselves pregnant celebrate the new addition to our families in gratitude, even when the rest of the world balks at us having large families.

Hello Misshalfway,

As I wanted to ( needed to ) take a break from this thread, I thought I would answer your questions, so as I would not look like I was running away from them.

I do not know what your point is to compare Catholic to LDS and further think we continue to miss the 850 lb. gorilla in the room, but I will give you your answers so we can continue to move further away from the enormous moral issue faced by ALL Christians.

No, all Catholics do not follow the Vatican to the letter.

Yes, I know Catholics who have had an abortion.

Yes, there are varied political views and they do call themselves Christian.

Yes, I do ( and have ) taken the same hard line with them regarding the issue of abortion and or Planned Parenthood.

I hope those answers help in your comparison. ( But see no point in them )

My discouragement continues and I remain firm in my opinion that ALL Christians should stand as one as the Body of Christ for all the world to see.

Black and white??? Yes indeed, there is nothing on the planet that is more black and white to me ( Christian ) than to stand for life. I would suggest that it should be for you as well.

BTW, I consider myself a Christian first, A Catholic a distant second. ( Just a thought for you to consider )

God bless,

Carl

Edited November 19, 2008 by ceeboo

[Wingnut]

And I am against the practices and ideology of planned parenthood. I still remember my father teaching me concerning it. I understand this is one of the main reasons the church couldn't endorse the girl scouts like they do the boy scouts of America.

What does the Girl Scout program have to do with Planned Parenthood?

[Misshalfway]

What does the Girl Scout program have to do with Planned Parenthood?

They support planned parenthood.

[Misshalfway]

Black and white??? Yes indeed, there is nothing on the planet that is more black and white to me ( Christian ) than to stand for life. I would suggest that it should be for you as well.

I think there is a difference between condemning practices vs. condemning people. This is my only point. I am not advocating abortion or planned parenthood. If you have any questions on that score, perhaps you should read me again. I suppose I get tired on these heated threads when our discussions and intelligent arguments deteriorate into name calling and the characterization of the church as bad or wrong or un-Christian because one or two have an opposing view.

Anyway, I appreciate your view and your belief on the stance of abortion. Again, I stand with you. I just don't like it when we start in with the name calling when we can't see eye to eye or when someone disagrees with us.

Condemning practice.... not people.

[Wingnut]

They support planned parenthood.

Some 20% of councils nationwide choose to affiliate with Planned Parenthood. It is not an official affiliation sanctioned by the national GSUSA organization. I was a Girl Scout for 13 years, and I turned out fine. Never even heard of Planned Parenthood until I was 23.

I was always under the impression that the Church didn't align with the Girl Scouts because they already had the Girl's Camp program in place.

[Misshalfway]

Girls camp came later as did the YW's program..... a program that has changed over the years. The church aligned with the Boy scouts of America as a way to establish an activity arm of the church for the boys. It didn't make the same choice with regards to the girl scouts. I have asked this question a lot among my local church leaders as I was trying to understand such a choice. This is what I have been told.

I am not condemning the girl scouts. I am sure you had a wonderful experience. My nieces are girl scouts. Please understand what I am saying and what I am not......I only use this as an example of how strongly the church feels about abortion and how careful they are about who they endorse.

My position is that I defend the church and its position and secondly to defend the vast majority of the church who stand on the same moral platform against abortion as well. And it is clear to me that the church won't support any organization that goes against its values. They even said that if the Boy Scouts of America changed their position on certain issues, that the church would severe ties with them.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Misshalfway

[bytor2112]

Girls camp came later as did the YW's program..... a program that has changed over the years. The church aligned with the Boy scouts of America as a way to establish an activity arm of the church for the boys. It didn't make the same choice with regards to the girl scouts. I have asked this question a lot among my local church leaders as I was trying to understand such a choice. This is what I have been told.

I am not condemning the girl scouts. I am sure you had a wonderful experience. My nieces are girl scouts. Please understand what I am saying and what I am not......I only use this as an example of how strongly the church feels about abortion and how careful they are about who they endorse.

My position is that I defend the church and its position and secondly to defend the vast majority of the church who stand on the same moral platform against abortion as well. And it is clear to me that the church won't support any organization that goes against its values. They even said that if the Boy Scouts of America changed their position on certain issues, that the church would severe ties with them.

That's exactly right.....the church has a 93 year history with the Boy SCouts and if the "agenda" would have made it's way into the program....the church would have went strictly to Duty to God. Too bad that adults can't leave children alone, ya know. If we want to muck up the world as adults, is it really necessary to ruin things for kids......just to try and prove a point?