Is race really an issue right now?

[pam]

Yes thank you that cleared it up. Again my extreme sensitivity to the subject.

[countrygirl66]

I have to admit mixed kids can be some of most beautiful children around. You have a point there. But I still think the different races were created for a reason.

Yes probably so. But with most things that are created for a purpose, when that purpose is fulfilled, they are given a new purpose.:)

[Wingnut]

SoJ, perhaps this is the quote your are looking for?

"We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question." ("Marriage and Divorce," in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144)

There's another one I've read that expands a little more. I'm still looking for it.

[Guest SisterofJared]

Actually it was Franklin D Richards that answered the question. I was in Germany at an LDS retreat for military families. Brother Richards was answering questions. The full blessings of the Priesthood had just been given to all worthy men, regardless of race. It was a very exciting time, and I remember feeling the spirit so strongly. I was already quite married, but was interested in what the church would have to say about interracial marriage. Earlier we had been advised to not marry outside our race or religion simply because we wouldn't have the Priesthood in our home.

So I asked brother Richards how that reccomendation might have changed and he answered that of course we should never marry outside our religion, and that it was wisest not to marry outside our race, because marriage was difficult already, and that it wasn't best to deliberately choose to face the extra difficulties that would come when we marry outside our race. I do recognize some validity of that, but also feel that it is a disappearing issue. Few people are going to have big problems with it today. Any frankly, anyone who has a problem with it is an idiot. (LOL I hope none of you have problems with it!)

SoJ

[Wingnut]

This is the other one I was looking for (note the year in which this was given).

Here's what President Spencer W. Kimball said:

"Now, the brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation. We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs."

(Brigham Young University Devotional on 5 January 1965)

[Guest SisterofJared]

I don't think any GAs would say that today.

We have a new world!

SoJ

[TeancumsSword]

We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians

The origin of the following quote is up for debate, but I would like to share it in light of the above statement...

"Verily, verily, saith the Lord your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world, ye can not discerne [discern] with your natural eyes, the design and the purpose of your Lord and your God, in bringing you thus far into the wilderness for a trial of your faith, and to be especial witnesses, to bear testimony of this land, upon which the zion of God shall be built up in the last days, when it is redeemed.

Verily, inasmuch as ye are united in calling upon my name to know my will concerning who shall preach to the inhabitants that shall assemble this day to learn what new doctrine you have to teach them, you have done wisely, for so did the prophets anciently, even Enoch, and Abraham, and others: and therefore, it is my will that my servant Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting with prayer; that my servant W. W. Phelps should preach the discourse; and that my servants Joseph Coe and Ziba Peterson should bear testimony as they shall be moved by the Holy Spirit. This will be pleasing in the sight of your Lord.

Verily I say unto you, ye are laying the foundation of a great work for the salvation of as many as will believe and repent, and obey the ordinances of the gospel, and continue faithful to the end: For, as I live, saith the Lord, so shall they live.

Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.

Gird up your loins and be prepared for the mighty work of the Lord to prepare the world for my second coming to meet the tribes of Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the beginning; For the final desolation, and decrees upon Babylon: For, as the everlasting gospel is carried from this land, in love for peace, to gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, for Zion,— even so shall rebellion follow after speedily, with hatred for war until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all the kingdoms and nations that strive to govern themselves by the laws and precepts, and force and powers of men under the curse of sin, in all the world.

Verily I say unto you, that the day of vexation and vengeance is nigh at the doors of this nation, when wicked, ungodly and daring men will rise up in wrath and might, and go forth in anger, like as the dust is driven by [a] terrible wind; and they will be the means of the destruction of the government, and cause the death and misery of man[y] souls, but the faithful among my people shall be preserved in holy places, during all these tribulations.

Be patient, therefore, possessing your souls in peace and love, and keep the faith that is now delivered unto you for the gathering of scattered Israel, and lo, I am with you, though ye cannot see me, till I come: even so. Amen.

Reported by W.W.P. [William W. Phelps]"

[TeancumsSword]

I don't think any GAs would say that today.

We have a new world!

SoJ

Wasn't David B. Haight's wife Japanese?

I will answer my own question... no she was not. I thought one of them had a Japanese wife?

Edited November 22, 2008 by TeancumsSword

[pam]

I agree SOJ. Notice that was said in 1965. Totally different world now but I suppose there is still some truth to it. I just see it differently is all.

[Wingnut]

I don't think any GAs would say that today.

We have a new world!

SoJ

Yep. That's why I emphasized noting the year. Right in the middle of the civil rights movement. I believe that inter-racial marriage was still legally prohibited in many states at that time (not that it was probably a popular idea anyway)

The origin of the following quote is up for debate, but I would like to share it in light of the above statement...

"Verily, verily, saith the Lord your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world, ye can not discerne [discern] with your natural eyes, the design and the purpose of your Lord and your God, in bringing you thus far into the wilderness for a trial of your faith, and to be especial witnesses, to bear testimony of this land, upon which the zion of God shall be built up in the last days, when it is redeemed.

Verily, inasmuch as ye are united in calling upon my name to know my will concerning who shall preach to the inhabitants that shall assemble this day to learn what new doctrine you have to teach them, you have done wisely, for so did the prophets anciently, even Enoch, and Abraham, and others: and therefore, it is my will that my servant Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting with prayer; that my servant W. W. Phelps should preach the discourse; and that my servants Joseph Coe and Ziba Peterson should bear testimony as they shall be moved by the Holy Spirit. This will be pleasing in the sight of your Lord.

Verily I say unto you, ye are laying the foundation of a great work for the salvation of as many as will believe and repent, and obey the ordinances of the gospel, and continue faithful to the end: For, as I live, saith the Lord, so shall they live.

Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.

Gird up your loins and be prepared for the mighty work of the Lord to prepare the world for my second coming to meet the tribes of Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the beginning; For the final desolation, and decrees upon Babylon: For, as the everlasting gospel is carried from this land, in love for peace, to gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, for Zion,— even so shall rebellion follow after speedily, with hatred for war until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all the kingdoms and nations that strive to govern themselves by the laws and precepts, and force and powers of men under the curse of sin, in all the world.

Verily I say unto you, that the day of vexation and vengeance is nigh at the doors of this nation, when wicked, ungodly and daring men will rise up in wrath and might, and go forth in anger, like as the dust is driven by [a] terrible wind; and they will be the means of the destruction of the government, and cause the death and misery of man[y] souls, but the faithful among my people shall be preserved in holy places, during all these tribulations.

Be patient, therefore, possessing your souls in peace and love, and keep the faith that is now delivered unto you for the gathering of scattered Israel, and lo, I am with you, though ye cannot see me, till I come: even so. Amen.

Reported by W.W.P. [William W. Phelps]"

W.W. Phelps was never even a General Authority. That combined with your admitted questionability about the verification of this quote make me hesitant to give it any credence. He was also excommunicated twice, the second time for entering into an unauthorized polygamous marriage, which discredits him further. He was re-baptized two days after that, however.

[countrygirl66]

The origin of the following quote is up for debate, but I would like to share it in light of the above statement...

"Verily, verily, saith the Lord your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world, ye can not discerne [discern] with your natural eyes, the design and the purpose of your Lord and your God, in bringing you thus far into the wilderness for a trial of your faith, and to be especial witnesses, to bear testimony of this land, upon which the zion of God shall be built up in the last days, when it is redeemed.

Verily, inasmuch as ye are united in calling upon my name to know my will concerning who shall preach to the inhabitants that shall assemble this day to learn what new doctrine you have to teach them, you have done wisely, for so did the prophets anciently, even Enoch, and Abraham, and others: and therefore, it is my will that my servant Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting with prayer; that my servant W. W. Phelps should preach the discourse; and that my servants Joseph Coe and Ziba Peterson should bear testimony as they shall be moved by the Holy Spirit. This will be pleasing in the sight of your Lord.

Verily I say unto you, ye are laying the foundation of a great work for the salvation of as many as will believe and repent, and obey the ordinances of the gospel, and continue faithful to the end: For, as I live, saith the Lord, so shall they live.

Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.

Gird up your loins and be prepared for the mighty work of the Lord to prepare the world for my second coming to meet the tribes of Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the beginning; For the final desolation, and decrees upon Babylon: For, as the everlasting gospel is carried from this land, in love for peace, to gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, for Zion,— even so shall rebellion follow after speedily, with hatred for war until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all the kingdoms and nations that strive to govern themselves by the laws and precepts, and force and powers of men under the curse of sin, in all the world.

Verily I say unto you, that the day of vexation and vengeance is nigh at the doors of this nation, when wicked, ungodly and daring men will rise up in wrath and might, and go forth in anger, like as the dust is driven by [a] terrible wind; and they will be the means of the destruction of the government, and cause the death and misery of man[y] souls, but the faithful among my people shall be preserved in holy places, during all these tribulations.

Be patient, therefore, possessing your souls in peace and love, and keep the faith that is now delivered unto you for the gathering of scattered Israel, and lo, I am with you, though ye cannot see me, till I come: even so. Amen.

Reported by W.W.P. [William W. Phelps]"

So if I get your meaning? My family and extended family who are (black, white, korean, mexican, danish, indian, tia, scottish, german, slovak, and ???) We are going to be the rebellion that will be a means of destroying the government and cause the death and misery of man. We won't be delightsom and white. Sounds about right, better watch out, were comming for ya!:D:D:D

[TeancumsSword]

Yep. That's why I emphasized noting the year. Right in the middle of the civil rights movement. I believe that inter-racial marriage was still legally prohibited in many states at that time (not that it was probably a popular idea anyway)

W.W. Phelps was never even a General Authority. That combined with your admitted questionability about the verification of this quote make me hesitant to give it any credence. He was also excommunicated twice, the second time for entering into an unauthorized polygamous marriage, which discredits him further. He was re-baptized two days after that, however.

Oops! I left off the lead paragraph:rolleyes:....

In July 1831 after the arrival of Joseph Smith, Jr., and others in Jackson County, Missouri, plans were made to preach to the Native Americans. Smith received a directive on intermarriage with the Indians. At a later date William W. Phelps wrote, evidently from memory, what he claimed was part or the substance of this revelation:

Part — of a revelation by Joseph Smith Jun. given over the boundary, west of Jackson Co. Missouri, on Sunday morning, July 17, 1831, when Seven Elders, viz: Joseph Smith Jun. Oliver Cowdery, W.W. Phelps, Martin Harris, Joseph Coe, Ziba Peterson and Joshua Lewis united their hearts in prayer, in a private place, to inquire of the Lord who should preach the first sermon to the remnants of the Lamanites and Nephites, and the people of that Section, that should assemble that day in the Indian country, to hear the gospel, and the revelations according to the Book of Mormon.

Among the company, there being neither pen, ink or paper, Joseph [smith, Jr.] remarked that the Lord could preserve his words as he had ever done, till the time appointed, and proceeded:

Apparently, it was Joseph who gave this supposed revelation. But I can see your point on the Phelps-Polygamy thing. Could you post a source for the information you posted about Phelps?

BTW, did you mean to sound hostile?

[Guest SisterofJared]

what is TIA?

By the war, that BoM scripture that talked about being white and delightsome was an error. Earlier editions of the BoM said, "pure and delightsome." In the 80s, the Ensign had a big write up about the fact that it was one of several printing errors that had been found. Back in the days when letters were put in one by one by typesetters, mistakes could and did happen.

So we know that actually the lamanites will become a PURE and delightsome people, not a white and delightsome people.

SoJ

[TeancumsSword]

So if I get your meaning? My family and extended family who are (black, white, korean, mexican, danish, indian, tia, scottish, german, slovak, and ???) We are going to be the rebellion that will be a means of destroying the government and cause the death and misery of man. We won't be delightsom and white. Sounds about right, better watch out, were comming for ya!:D:D:D

Oh dear, how did you ever draw that out of that quote or my posts?

My point was that if this revelation is true, Joseph actually wanted us to intermarry with the Lamanites and few Nephites found amoung them.

[countrygirl66]

what is TIA?SoJ

From thialand. My spelling is terrible. sorry:o

[Jenamarie]

their post.

And I replied that the only problem I have with that is that in order to get to that point.... well, if I was just having babies today, and married a different race, I would be sad to see that none of my children would look like me. Cacasians genes aren't that strong... so when you marry someone with brown eyes and you have blue eyes, usually the baby will have brown eyes. Usually olive skin genes are stronger than light skin genes, etc. So when a white person marries a black person, generally you have a black baby. And there is nothing wrong with that.... but if in your heart you want to have a baby that looks like you, you won't have.

There is nothing WRONG with that.... but there is also nothing wrong with wanting to have a child that looks like you. It's great fun seeing yourself in your children. Recently at my sisters house, my granddaughter and her granddaughter sat side by side. Both babies are 1 year old, born within days of each other. It was fun to see that both were the spitting image of their grandmas!

We look at family pictures and see whose ears someone has, whose nose or whose eyes. It's a normal part of being part of a family. And if we became one race... the chance to have our child look like us would be lost to many.

If you loved someone of a different race, it probably wouldn't matter at all. In fact, you would be happy to see that your child looked like their father/mother.

I dunno, I'm a white person married to another white person, and I sometimes really question whether I'm actually my children's mother. Niether of my already-born children looks ANYTHING like me! Infact, my daughter is the spitting image of her grandmother, and my son's newborn pictures looked *exactly* like my DH's (so much so that it freaked my MIL out a little ) So marrying within my race didn't give me that benefit. :)

On the other hand, we had a bi-racial family in our ward a few years ago (dad was white, mom was black from Trinidad. beautiful accent!) and the oldest son looked like the spitting image of his dad, if dad were to get a deep tan.

[TeancumsSword]

Oh dear, how did you ever draw that out of that quote or my posts?

My point was that if this revelation is true, Joseph actually wanted us to intermarry with the Lamanites and few Nephites found amoung them.

Also I have an adopted aunt who is half Philipino half Black, and my sister's two girls are mixed, one is Black/Latina the other is Puerto Rican/Latina.

[Jenamarie]

And an interesting example from our own soon-to-be-President (who is bi-racial). Here he is as a child with his maternal (white) grandfather:

He may not have the same eye or hair color, but I'd still say there's an extremely strong family resemblance!

(and I'm not meaning to pick on you SoJ, just pointing out that it IS possible to have kids that "look like you" even if they have different racial make-up :) )

[Wingnut]

Oops! I left off the lead paragraph:rolleyes:....

Apparently, it was Joseph who gave this supposed revelation. But I can see your point on the Phelps-Polygamy thing. Could you post a source for the information you posted about Phelps?

BTW, did you mean to sound hostile?

Okay, I'll admit I pulled that info from Wiki (article here), which for this particular article doesn't actually cite sources, interestingly. Aside from having looked it up here, I did previously already know that he had been excommunicated, though I did not know why nor that it had happened twice.

Did I intend to sound hostile? No. I intended to sound superior.

what is TIA?

By the war, that BoM scripture that talked about being white and delightsome was an error. Earlier editions of the BoM said, "pure and delightsome." In the 80s, the Ensign had a big write up about the fact that it was one of several printing errors that had been found. Back in the days when letters were put in one by one by typesetters, mistakes could and did happen.

So we know that actually the lamanites will become a PURE and delightsome people, not a white and delightsome people.

SoJ

I never knew that. I've only ever heard "pure."

I dunno, I'm a white person married to another white person, and I sometimes really question whether I'm actually my children's mother. Niether of my already-born children looks ANYTHING like me! Infact, my daughter is the spitting image of her grandmother, and my son's newborn pictures looked *exactly* like my DH's (so much so that it freaked my MIL out a little ) So marrying within my race didn't give me that benefit. :)

On the other hand, we had a bi-racial family in our ward a few years ago (dad was white, mom was black from Trinidad. beautiful accent!) and the oldest son looked like the spitting image of his dad, if dad were to get a deep tan.

I have two funny stories that I thought of as I read your post. One is about a man I used to work with. Occasionally his wife and two children would come to the office to have lunch with him. Every time they did, after they left, we (he was the only man in the office full of women) would rave about how cute his kids were. Inevitably, his response was "Yep. Good thing my wife cheats on me!"

The other story is about a high school friend of mine who is now married and has one child. My friend is a platinum blond (natural towhead) and her husband has sandy brown hair. Their son has flaming red hair. She likes to tell people "It was the UPS guy." Incidentally, her husband works for UPS.

[Wingnut]

My point was that if this revelation is true, Joseph actually wanted us to intermarry with the Lamanites and few Nephites found amoung them.

I would be surprised if he did teach that, but I wouldn't doubt it at all. Surprised because of the times in which he lived. But I wouldn't be skeptical. However, until I can see actual documentation for the quote (I know, I'm one to talk...darned Wiki not citing its sources), I'll remain skeptical of it. :)

[WANDERER]

It's just there...I'm a mutt : ) and appropriate light social small talk seems to consist of what country does your surname come from *rolls eyes*. Now this brings either of two reactions

a) face checking (I'm a mutt, do I look like like where my surname hails from? Nope, didn't think so).

or

b) assurances from various ethnic groups that the surname is also there...therefore I must be of that particular group or related (a more educated guess based on facial structure that I hail from further origins in terms of genetic ancestry.... but quite obtuse really).

So yeah I'm pretty happy about having the mutt tag legitimised..now I can put all discussion to rest on association to any one culture/ancestry in particular and just get by with citizenship and place of birth...well perhaps. Race is just another issue in a big bundle. Hey but I'm blue eyed, blonde haired and freckled and fair-skinned....with a few additionals. Yep, look nothing like my family...but a lot like my great-grandmother. All good fun : )