Intelligence - Is gender selection a choice?

[annewandering]

transgender issues are very difficult to understand. there are birth defects, obviously. how extensive those birth defects go is the real puzzle. can it be that a person is born into a body that the hormones messed up the sex on?

if so how do we really know the original sex of the person? when there was confusion of sex at birth they used to make physical changes to that the babyso the baby was one obvious sex. unfortunately they didnt always pick the right one. often now, i understand, they wait till the child shows preference in the same way a child picks the right or left hand.

if there can be a birth defect not making the sex obvious then is it possible to totally mess up so the wrong sex is apparent?

i dont understand this issue at all but it makes it hard to be dogmatic on the subject.

one thing for sure life can be a trial and that is a rough trial to endure.

[Elgama]

Exactly, and the world would be worse off for it.

I don't agree the person doing the oppressing is the worse off the person being oppressed can choose to be worse off. But think of the amazing things that come out of oppresion and the growth a person being oppressed or facing a trial can achieve - Martin Luther King, Millicent Fawcett, Boudicca, Mother Maria, Connie Ten Booth, Helen Keller etc do you really think any of them could have reached such great potential without someone attempting to oppress them? Nothing brought the British Spirit and people working together more than World War 2, We have many advance in technology because of war etc Ultimately opression and the amazing people that come out of it are what tend to make the world better off not worse off in the long run

-Charley

[skylercollins]

I don't agree the person doing the oppressing is the worse off the person being oppressed can choose to be worse off. But think of the amazing things that come out of oppresion and the growth a person being oppressed or facing a trial can achieve - Martin Luther King, Millicent Fawcett, Boudicca, Mother Maria, Connie Ten Booth, Helen Keller etc do you really think any of them could have reached such great potential without someone attempting to oppress them? Nothing brought the British Spirit and people working together more than World War 2, We have many advance in technology because of war etc Ultimately opression and the amazing people that come out of it are what tend to make the world better off not worse off in the long run

-Charley

I must disagree. If that were the case, then Hitler, Stalin, and Mao should be praised for the blessings they delivered to their people through "trials", right? This is somewhat synonymous with what's called the Broken Window Fallacy in economics.

That fallacy is about what is seen and what is not seen when a shopkeeper has to replace his window that someone broke. What is seen is the new window and the glazier's profit (much to the joy of the rest of the town), what is not seen is where that money would have been used had it not gone to replacing the window. Perhaps it would have gone to the tailor for a new suit for the shopkeeper. It's an unknown, but too often people believe the window being broken was a good thing because not only did the glazier profit, but the new window was probably made with better technology. If it's such a good thing, then why don't we all go around and destroy things?

How this relates is that trials will come in our lives no matter what we do to try to avoid them. But that doesn't mean that we should look for them and invite them, and even worse, that we should stand back and watch as others face trials that we can and should do something to stop, such as oppression.

[Elgama]

I must disagree. If that were the case, then Hitler, Stalin, and Mao should be praised for the blessings they delivered to their people through "trials", right? This is somewhat synonymous with what's called the Broken Window Fallacy in economics.

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No because the decision to make good from the bad was not theirs, for example I had a sister at church that oppressed me in a very frustrating manner at a very vulnerable time in my life. I went through several years of anxiety attacks, testimony struggles, and a distance from my Heavenly Father, why because I chose to let her oppress me. Once I got rid of the oppression and started to gain in confidence, I received a great understanding I didn't have before, I became closer to Heavenly Father than ever, and I now stand a better chance than before of reaching my full potential. Will she blessed for what she did of course not, if she repents then she will not suffer serious consequences for it either and it may help her progression (so maybe she will be blessed). However I am very greatful for that Sister's negative influence in my life.

Like Connie Ten Boom with the fleas in her tent every night thanking God for them at the end she discovered that although bitten they protected her hut from the guards.

That fallacy is about what is seen and what is not seen when a shopkeeper has to replace his window that someone broke. What is seen is the new window and the glazier's profit (much to the joy of the rest of the town), what is not seen is where that money would have been used had it not gone to replacing the window. Perhaps it would have gone to the tailor for a new suit for the shopkeeper. It's an unknown, but too often people believe the window being broken was a good thing because not only did the glazier profit, but the new window was probably made with better technology. If it's such a good thing, then why don't we all go around and destroy things?

Or maybe the shiny new window gives him new marketing ideas and his business grows and he can buy 10 new suits. One of my favourite quotes is When Life throws You Lemons, Make Lemonade, believe me my life is really good a chucking lemons, my choice is to add sugar and make great lemonade or complain about the bruise. The oppressor has a choice but so does the person being oppressed. Do you know much about Terry Waite and Brian Keenan? When I was growing up in the UK they were big news, they were held hostage in the Lebanon for many years, in difficult conditions, when they came back they chose to inspire many people and make the best of their situation, whilst there they chose not to give up and go mad and found ways to cope. They were a great inspiration to me through many trials and when I was bedbound through illness living in a darkened room, thanks to them sharing their lemonade with us, I am able to grow, if they hadn't been oppressed their inspiration would not have been there. We all have the choice of good and evil - those that choose to oppress choose evil those that choose to grow instead and take advantage of that choose good. Thats why we don't all go around breaking things, but we can choose to make the best of that situation

-Charley

Edited November 28, 2008 by Elgama

[skylercollins]

No because the decision to make good from the bad was not theirs, for example I had a sister at church that oppressed me in a very frustrating manner at a very vulnerable time in my life. I went through several years of anxiety attacks, testimony struggles, and a distance from my Heavenly Father, why because I chose to let her oppress me. Once I got rid of the oppression and started to gain in confidence, I received a great understanding I didn't have before, I became closer to Heavenly Father than ever, and I now stand a better chance than before of reaching my full potential. Will she blessed for what she did of course not, if she repents then she will not suffer serious consequences for it either and it may help her progression (so maybe she will be blessed). However I am very greatful for that Sister's negative influence in my life.

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-Charley

I'm not saying that we shouldn't make the best of and learn from the trials in our life. I'm saying that we shouldn't be looking for them. And when it comes to others oppressing others, we should help them fight back instead of telling them it's really for their own good.

I could always come break your windows for you if you really think it's a good idea.

[Elgama]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't make the best of and learn from the trials in our life. I'm saying that we shouldn't be looking for them. And when it comes to others oppressing others, we should help them fight back instead of telling them it's really for their own good.

I could always come break your windows for you if you really think it's a good idea.

LOl well one of the blessings that came out of my trials is a fantastic council house so they would be fixed by tommorrow at no additional expense to myself In the meantime I'd be put up someplace else so you can if you like.

I am not saying we invite trials or don't help people through trials, but what I am saying is the choice to oppress or being oppressed is a choice people make, and has good or bad consequences depending on what you choose. So if we did choose to be a certain way before this life we may have chosen to accept the oppression that went with it knowing the growth we could gain. I don't know if it is how it happened but life is almost entirely about choice.

-Charley

[TeancumsSword]

From my fourteen year old daughter who I share daily e-mail communications on various topics. Yesterday, as I answered an thread, based on my own experience - Sanctification, I shared that with my daughter. What was unexpected was the following...

What would be your response?

This is what I was taught once...

An intelligence is both male and female, upon being created/born/turned into spirits the male separates from the female and the single intelligence becomes 1 male spirit and 1 female spirit.

Don't ask me to show you where they got the idea, I have no clue.

[Hemidakota]

Now that is interesting to note. Thanks

[Hemidakota]

Everything in nature appears in pairs. (for the most part..)

Particles and anti-particles.. matter and anti-matter. Males and anti-males (females ).

Just my input.

Why is that? Was there a time when there was no pairs but a single identity?

[Hemidakota]

I'd like to open the door here to the topic of transgenders, since we're talking about gender choice.

We have people who are transgendered, and to the extreme, transsexuals who describe their experiences as being trapped in the wrong (gender of) body. Some people undergo the surgery to change themselves, and the others grapple with it for the remainder of their lives because of the taboo of it. This presents quite an interesting notion, given the light of this conversation.

I think it would only make sense that we were sexual (gendered) creatures in the pre-existence, since we are in this mortal life, and continue to be so in our after-lives. After all, we had spirit bodies, not spirit spirits, right? So there are two possibilities here, and it brings very different ways of thinking.

No choice: we are as we were in the pre-existence.

Was a mistake made somewhere between the pre-existent life and this one?

Or the person had the same inner conflict in the previous life (and perhaps the next one as well)

Choice: we get to choose what gender to be.

It would seem someone would choose to be the "opposite" gender because they wanted to be so (while in pre-existence), and so should be satisfied in this life.

Or did those people make a mistake, and are their own source of their misery?

This would also make it morally acceptable, perhaps even rightful? for someone to choose to have sex assignment surgery, as it is one's own choice, and does not defy God's nature.

Same question my daughter asked....thanks for sharing your thought.

[Hemidakota]

I have been rereading theteachings of the early 70s Courses by Elder B.H. Roberts, Seventy's Course Volume 4...again something very interested to glean from this.

What do we learn from all this? First, let it be re-called that according to the express word of God "intelligences" are not created, neither indeed can they be. Now, with the above revelation from the Book of Mormon concerning the spirit-body of Jesus, before us, we are face to face with a something that was begotten, and in that sense a "creation," a spirit, the "first born of many brethren;" the "beginning of the creations of God." The spirit is in human form-for we are told that as Christ's spirit-body looked to Jared's brother, so would the Christ look to men when he came among them in the flesh; the body of flesh conforming to the appearance of the spirit, the earthly to the heavenly. "This body which ye now behold is the body of my spirit"-the house, the tenement of that uncreated intelligence which had been begotten of the Father a spirit, as later that spirit-body with the intelligent, uncreated entity inhabiting it, will be begotten a man. "This body which you now behold is the body of my spirit," or spirit-body. There can be no doubt but what here "spirit" as in the Book of Abraham, and in the passages quoted from the Prophet's King Follet's Sermon, is used interchangeably with "intelligence," and refers to the uncreated entity; as if the passage stood: "This is the body inhabited by an intelligence." The intelligent entity inhabiting a spirit-body make up the spiritual personage. It is this spirit life we have so often thought about, and sang about. In this state of existence occurred the spirit's "primevil childhood;" here spirits were "nurtured" near the side of the heavenly Father, in his "high and glorious place;" thence spirits were sent to earth to unite spirit-elements with earth-elements-in some way essential to a fullness of glory and happiness. "Man is Spirit. The elements are eternal, and Spirit and Element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy; and when separated man cannot receive a fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God; Yea, man is the tabernacle of God even temples." Hence spirits are sent to earth, to take on its elements, and to learn the lessons earth-life has to teach. The half awakened recollections of the human mind may be chiefly engaged with scenes, incidents and impressions of that former spirit life; but that does not argue the non-existence of the uncreated intelligences who preceded the begotten spiritual personages as so plainly set forth in the revelations of God.

The difference, then, between "spirits" and "intelligences," as here used, is this: Spirits are uncreated intelligences inhabiting spiritual bodies; while "intelligences," pure and simple, are intelligent entities, but unembodied in either spirit bodies or bodies of flesh and bone. They are uncreated, self-existent entities; but let it be observed, in passing, that nothing is here said in relation to the form of these intelligent entities, nor anything as to their mode of existence. Indeed, so far as I know, nothing has been revealed in relation to their form or mode of existence; nothing beyond the fact of existence, their eternity and the qualities necessary to them as Intelligences.

[skylercollins]

Just a pondering, but I wonder if our spirits (spirit bodies and conscience) were created from these intelligences as if they are raw material. What I mean is, our physical bodies and brains were created from the raw material in the physical universe. Why not have a similar means of creation of our spirits out of intelligence, which was never created but has existed forever, unorganized?

Hmm...

[Hemidakota]

We are told that matter and intelligence cannot be created....that means, any GOD in our sphere cannot create both. They just use the material to fashion or form in order to create. Does that make since?

[skylercollins]

We are told that matter and intelligence cannot be created....that means, any GOD in our sphere cannot create both. They just use the material to fashion or form in order to create. Does that make since?

Yea exactly. So our spirits were formed out of intelligence just as our bodies were formed out of physical raw material. And that raw material was neither male or female prior to being formed as such, in the womb.

Of course this is all our imaginations at work. (I mean these ideas we're coming up with.)

[Hemidakota]

I believe our spirits and mortal flesh is comprised of many intelligences, minor in awareness or level of knowledge, but someones leads them - the I AM or ME.

[Maya]

This is a question I been thinking a lot, but not really got an answer yet. i think though that someoen I know has in her BP that she was among the daughters of HF before coming to the earth... mine only says I was willing to take the gospel already then...

Anyway I also topught like Teancums sword that what if we been one that has been separated and what is we have to find the other partner that has the other parts so we could be one...

I also been thinking that I think that already in Heaven we were either more interested in what mom did or what Father did... and then there were some that just could not decide and maybe they chose wrong...

I must say I been a bit about not beeing a boy, since they seem to have so much more fun they can do than us girls. They could go aroung playing indians and cowboys and no one told then that they should go and paly with dolls! Besides before the man could decide, the man was the leader.... I am atracted to mecanical things, guy things... but then again ...I could NEVER give away the wonderful possibility to be a mother! I also have learned that I am not a leader... I am much better as an advicor ...

Sometimes I wonder if I did find my other part... my DH likes to make food I preobably would burn it all! Then again we both hate doing the dishes. The fiorst thing we bought as we got married was the dishwasher. About the washingmaskin: He puts the clothes in the maskin and I take them out. He drives I read the map.. or we get lost. In forest he leads I follow ... or we get lost. In town I lead or we get lost...

[richlittell]

Everything in nature appears in pairs. (for the most part..)

Particles and anti-particles.. matter and anti-matter. Males and anti-males (females ).

Just my input.

Hmmm, said in jest but maybe not far off the mark.

I don't know about "pairs" only, as this would put those like Abraham and Brigham Young in a bad spot come the next life. But what if indeed male and female entities are pre-intelligences that come from the same intelligence base? Then neither would one be whole without the other. And just like electrons knocked off of atoms, will not rest till they find another compatible nucleus.

Well, even if not true, it makes an interesting analogy (and might shed light upon the love/hate relationship between the sexes, that we seem to "need" each other even if we can't "understand" each other )

Edited November 30, 2008 by richlittell

[interalia]

transgender issues are very difficult to understand. there are birth defects, obviously. how extensive those birth defects go is the real puzzle. can it be that a person is born into a body that the hormones messed up the sex on?

if so how do we really know the original sex of the person? when there was confusion of sex at birth they used to make physical changes to that the babyso the baby was one obvious sex. unfortunately they didnt always pick the right one. often now, i understand, they wait till the child shows preference in the same way a child picks the right or left hand.

if there can be a birth defect not making the sex obvious then is it possible to totally mess up so the wrong sex is apparent?

i dont understand this issue at all but it makes it hard to be dogmatic on the subject.

one thing for sure life can be a trial and that is a rough trial to endure.

Preach it! I wouldn't trade my problems for anyone else's really, but being transgendered is no walk in the park. Also being a member of a church with such strict expectations of gender it can make things confusing at times. I have faith things will get worked out in the end, but for the time being, I have to take each day one at a time.

[Hemidakota]

There is a grand purpose for the term ZION and why there is a split of gender called by our culture MALE AND FEMALE. Both together as already stated, makes the intelligent whole or as one.

However, there is time when nothing more should be said on this subject.

Interalia, things will work out in the end for you. Keep the faith...

[Hemidakota]

Yea exactly. So our spirits were formed out of intelligence just as our bodies were formed out of physical raw material. And that raw material was neither male or female prior to being formed as such, in the womb.

Of course this is all our imaginations at work. (I mean these ideas we're coming up with.)

I do believe we are collection of intelligences. However, we are the 'I AM' in their midst. As I do believe there is pairing of intelligences prior to this spirit body habitation. Even the Earth is female gender and the Sun is male gender.

[Hemidakota]

This is a question I been thinking a lot, but not really got an answer yet. i think though that someoen I know has in her BP that she was among the daughters of HF before coming to the earth... mine only says I was willing to take the gospel already then...

Anyway I also topught like Teancums sword that what if we been one that has been separated and what is we have to find the other partner that has the other parts so we could be one...

I also been thinking that I think that already in Heaven we were either more interested in what mom did or what Father did... and then there were some that just could not decide and maybe they chose wrong...

I must say I been a bit about not beeing a boy, since they seem to have so much more fun they can do than us girls. They could go aroung playing indians and cowboys and no one told then that they should go and paly with dolls! Besides before the man could decide, the man was the leader.... I am atracted to mecanical things, guy things... but then again ...I could NEVER give away the wonderful possibility to be a mother! I also have learned that I am not a leader... I am much better as an advicor ...

Sometimes I wonder if I did find my other part... my DH likes to make food I preobably would burn it all! Then again we both hate doing the dishes. The fiorst thing we bought as we got married was the dishwasher. About the washingmaskin: He puts the clothes in the maskin and I take them out. He drives I read the map.. or we get lost. In forest he leads I follow ... or we get lost. In town I lead or we get lost...

Would you prefer to be a IT?

[annewandering]

oh my gosh. i would never want to be a male. i had five brothers and that is way too much testosterone in one household. no wonder when there is polygamy its one male and more females.

much of what is so called male is just cultural mores. mechanical is not male. fun is not male and housecleaning is not female.

on the other hand much of the so called male and female traits do seem to be from birth. my sons first words were ball and truck. i was shocked. my daughers first words were always daddy!! there has to be a meaning in there somewhere! and we did try to raise them gender neutral in tasks and play. it made no difference. the girls loved barbies and the boys loved pecking orders. although one boy did get highly offended when he couldnt put nice barrettes in his hair. no he isnt gay or crossdresser! he just liked them. lol. we have six girls THEN 2 boys which may explain a lot.

anyway the point is that they all seemed to be born pretty much with gender identities in working order. it is very difficult to picture there ever being choice in it. in the preexistence or here. its too much a part of who we are.

[interalia]

"oh my gosh. i would never want to be a male. i had five brothers and that is way too much testosterone in one household. no wonder when there is polygamy its one male and more females. "

I think this is a cultural/dominance thing, not that I think poly-anything relationships are healthy. I believe that there are those who would prefer a polyandrous (1 female) relationship as opposed to a polygynous (1 male) in which the idea of "too much testosterone" would not be an issue to them.

[annewandering]

I think this is a cultural/dominance thing, not that I think poly-anything relationships are healthy. I believe that there are those who would prefer a polyandrous (1 female) relationship as opposed to a polygynous (1 male) in which the idea of "too much testosterone" would not be an issue to them.

true although i was really kidding around. there dont seem to have been many polygynous societies common in history although there are a few.

i hadnt read your introduction post before, interalia. since you were so brave and open i am going to tell a few things that have influenced my thoughts on this subject.

my third child was born with birth defects. they were in the abdominal area. one of the obvious problems was that the sex was not clear at all. in fact we didnt know for sure what he was till an autopsy was performed. when they came around to ask information for the birth certificate we didnt even know what sex he was.

it got me to thinking a lot on the subject. since then i have become friends with a person online who is a hermaphrodite and a member of the church. i didnt know this for quite some time so its not why we met.

it is clear that some odd things happen when a baby is created sometimes. there are genetic anomolies all over the place. most cause death before birth. many cause mental defects. others cause physical birth defects.

one is where there are three chromosomes for sex not two. sometimes known as 'super female or super male'. such as xxy xxx xyy. usually it is only by accident that a person is identified with these. they go for a long time never knowing and no doubt most never know. how it effects their gender is not clear if at all.

the point being that things get messed up here sometimes. its not always as clear as you would think.

another point to consider is that in the celestial kingdom there are the couples. and there are the ministering angels. who the ministering angels are is not all that clear that i know of. maybe there is some connection to this subject.

Edited December 1, 2008 by annewandering

[Hemidakota]

Thanks for the personal post. It brings a wealth of experiences and knowledge to the forefront for others to consider.

The Celestial kingdom in itself, has a lower order where those who are not married but inherited to the Celestial Kingdom will fill that roles. Even those less than the Celestial Kingdom, will still serve the Godhead and those who are appointed to that sphere.