Doping kids -- it's time to question the practice.

[Fiannan]

No it is not well documented. Hey, people still debate on disorders that are more easily classified (like if borderline personality disorder may actually be Asperger's but expressed differently in women as opposed to men. Then there are debates on what constitutes a psychopath -- even that may overlap at times with Aspergers.

But now we have ADHD (and as the Frontline documentary indicates a rush to diagnose bi-polar in kids too young for kindergarten). The diagnosis for ADHD has skyrocketed yet there is serious debate over the validity of diagnostic measures, whether there is an organic basis for it, or if it does exist, the number of kids given false diagnosis for it. Then we have the debate as to how to treat it.

[Gwen]

Brain Scans Reveal ADHD Differences

ADHD/ADD | Amen Clinics

[Fiannan]

Brain Scans Reveal ADHD Differences

ADHD/ADD | Amen Clinics

First, the article on brain scans said that the research was preliminary and they could not really extrapolate anything from what this particular study showed. Second, other studies on things like blood flow, while getting attention on the Dr. Phil show, are likewise not proven to show anything useful.

Other points that have to be considered is that the brain is an ever-changing organ. Start learning a different language and it changes shap and weight distribution. Go into a stressful situation and chemical and structural changes occur. Heck, start a relationship with someone and/or start having sex with someone and the brain changes dramatically. Get pregnant and huge changes occur.

Point is, the brain is like your absomin in a way. Start out with a flat abdomin and then stop exercising or start eating more (or be deprived of sleep) and you will get beer gut in time. Resume healthy living and you can go back to the original look. We don't usually think of the brain as ever-changing because the fleshy part is covered by a cranium. So there are other variables that may be involved here. And even if there wre differences that still does not warrent classifying people as different based on some behavioral characteristics that in one environment may lead to stress but in another environment may be highly beneficial for survival.

[MarginOfError]

No it is not well documented. Hey, people still debate on disorders that are more easily classified (like if borderline personality disorder may actually be Asperger's but expressed differently in women as opposed to men. Then there are debates on what constitutes a psychopath -- even that may overlap at times with Aspergers.

But now we have ADHD (and as the Frontline documentary indicates a rush to diagnose bi-polar in kids too young for kindergarten). The diagnosis for ADHD has skyrocketed yet there is serious debate over the validity of diagnostic measures, whether there is an organic basis for it, or if it does exist, the number of kids given false diagnosis for it. Then we have the debate as to how to treat it.

• Giedd JN, Blumenthal J, Molloy E, Castellanos FX: Brain Imaging

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• Himelstein J, Newcorn, JH, Halperin JM: The neurobiology of

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  5: D461–478

• Stefanatos GA, Wasserstein J: Attention deficit/hyperactivity

  disorder as a right hemisphere syndrome. Ann N Y Acad Sci,

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• Barkley RA, Grodzinsky G, DuPaul GJ: Frontal lobe functions in

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Then there are the 7,217 references given in Pubmed for "ADHD", 2,074 for "Effects of ADHD", 3,551 for "Treatment of ADHD", and 4,102 for "Diagnosis of ADHD".

As for diagnostic measures, there is very little consistent support for a pathological diagnosis. But as mentioned before, diagnoses can be made using behavioral cues. In fact, there are well established similarities in behavior in people exhibiting ADHD. As I mentioned before, if ADHD is not present, treating with stimulants should cause a spike in hyperactive behavior. If the stimulant curbs they hyperactive behavior, then it's a good chance ADHD is present.

The difference between behavioral diagnosis and pathological diagnosis is merely the difference between inductive and deductive logic. But then, what did logic ever have to do with this?

[applepansy]

Reading through this thread has left me concerned and saddened. After listening the the Frontline program I'm even more convinced that individuals and parents need education and less judgement.

We are all individuals having individualized experiences in this life. What works for one person doesn't always work for another in standardized or alternative medicine. The key is to find what works for you or for your child. Finding that key requires education. Doctors do not have the time to do all the education necessary and nobody knows you better than you do, except maybe your Mom. :)

Looking back. . . . my oldest son was diagnosed by his teachers with ADHD. I took him to the pediatrician who was convinced that teachers diagnosing was out of their scope of practice. He refused to medicate my son based on a teachers observations. On one hand I'm glad the doctor didn't medicate my son. On the other hand I might still have my son here with me if we had medicated him, but then I question "would I have really had my son?".

The ideal solution in our case would have been for me to have home schooled our children. At the time we didn't see that as an option. If I could do things over. . . I probably would.

I worked for a year in Psych as an Intake Coordinator. I saw a child psychiatrist prescribe adult antidepressants for a 2 yo. That child did not need medication, he needed to be loved in a stable home enviroment. I often saw children medicated because Mom or Dad had a mental illness that was being untreated because they saw the child as a problem, but the psychiatrist couldn't get mom/dad to accept that the issue may have been them. I also saw children who were in distress and not only needed but wanted the help that medications offer.

If a child is having behaviorial issues, I believe the first course of action should be prayer. Only God can tell you which course of action is right for you and/or your child.

I believe there is a place for modern medications. I believe there is a place of alternative medicine. I believe that there is an agenda to make money on these modern medications and I believe there are people working hard to make money on the alternatives. We are in a tough world.

Studies are showing that our thought patterns can control the brain chemistry. And just last Sunday our Gospel Doctrine teacher (Professor of Biology) read us an article that said science has now proven that genetics is changeable based on our experiences. (I have asked him for a copy of this article.)

I KNOW that our Spirits can control the physical. That's what we are here on this earth to learn. How this fits in with teaching a child with behavioral issues is something I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on. We all have to learn how to let our Spriits be in control and parents are required to not only learn that but teach their children how too.

I pray that somehow we can learn and teach our children. I pray that the suffering happening in families because of these issue can be navigated without destroying those families.

applepansy

[Fiannan]

Reading through this thread has left me concerned and saddened. After listening the the Frontline program I'm even more convinced that individuals and parents need education and less judgement.

We are all individuals having individualized experiences in this life. What works for one person doesn't always work for another in standardized or alternative medicine. The key is to find what works for you or for your child. Finding that key requires education. Doctors do not have the time to do all the education necessary and nobody knows you better than you do, except maybe your Mom. :)

Looking back. . . . my oldest son was diagnosed by his teachers with ADHD. I took him to the pediatrician who was convinced that teachers diagnosing was out of their scope of practice. He refused to medicate my son based on a teachers observations. On one hand I'm glad the doctor didn't medicate my son. On the other hand I might still have my son here with me if we had medicated him, but then I question "would I have really had my son?".

The ideal solution in our case would have been for me to have home schooled our children. At the time we didn't see that as an option. If I could do things over. . . I probably would.

I worked for a year in Psych as an Intake Coordinator. I saw a child psychiatrist prescribe adult antidepressants for a 2 yo. That child did not need medication, he needed to be loved in a stable home enviroment. I often saw children medicated because Mom or Dad had a mental illness that was being untreated because they saw the child as a problem, but the psychiatrist couldn't get mom/dad to accept that the issue may have been them. I also saw children who were in distress and not only needed but wanted the help that medications offer.

If a child is having behaviorial issues, I believe the first course of action should be prayer. Only God can tell you which course of action is right for you and/or your child.

I believe there is a place for modern medications. I believe there is a place of alternative medicine. I believe that there is an agenda to make money on these modern medications and I believe there are people working hard to make money on the alternatives. We are in a tough world.

Studies are showing that our thought patterns can control the brain chemistry. And just last Sunday our Gospel Doctrine teacher (Professor of Biology) read us an article that said science has now proven that genetics is changeable based on our experiences. (I have asked him for a copy of this article.)

I KNOW that our Spirits can control the physical. That's what we are here on this earth to learn. How this fits in with teaching a child with behavioral issues is something I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on. We all have to learn how to let our Spriits be in control and parents are required to not only learn that but teach their children how too.

I pray that somehow we can learn and teach our children. I pray that the suffering happening in families because of these issue can be navigated without destroying those families.

applepansy

No reply necessary here. Just wanted to emphasize how well thought out and insightful applepansy's post is.

And thanks for the reference to your watching the Frontline special that I originally posted. It's rare in American media to find truly thought-provoking news media and investigative reporting (Frontline is pretty good as is anything produced by John Stossel) but the specials Frontline has done on this issue are fantastic.

[Guest DeborahC]

DAng Fiannan.. I never thought we'd agree on so much, but we're right in the ZONE on this topic!

::applause:::

[MarginOfError]

Wow, Fiannan, that was a quick about face. How is it you can argue with so many of us on this topic, and then commend applepansy for a well-thought out post that says exactly what we've been saying the whole time (I too commend you, apples, for having intelligent thoughts on the subject). Throughout this thread, several of us have been advocating the position that judicious use of medication is a valid option, and one that ought not be categorically denied. We've advocated healthy lifestyles, diets, exercise, education, exploration of options, and said that it is not our place to judge when these things are not enough for anyone else. We've also condemned the use of medication as a fail-safe, and condemned the use of medications as a way of suppressing one's adversities instead of managing them. Since you clearly haven't been reading, I've taken the time to post the highlights of the thread within apples's post. I hope you'll notice this time that we don't like medical dependency, but judicious use of medication in some cases can bring about positive results much more efficiently then holistic (or ruler based) approaches.

Reading through this thread has left me concerned and saddened. After listening the the Frontline program I'm even more convinced that individuals and parents need education and less judgement.

Not that I think anyone should take medicine blindly...there are side effects to medicines and yep, there are side effects to most things you do. They need to be weighed up carefully. There are good reasons for not taking certain medications and exploring other options. I avoid medication whenever possible...but it's not about heaven or hell....just a health consideration. At the same time I'm not going to consider that *getting better* from something is in any way morally wrong.

It's bad enough being sick and needing medicine without having the added pressure that taking medicine is going to limit your salvation. Picking on sick people is not cool.

While doctors and scientists should not be followed blindly and without question, I am skeptical of what I term medical paranoia. For every prescription that is too quickly issued, there are likely several people who should take their medicine and don't. "He who doctors himself has a fool for a patient."

We are all individuals having individualized experiences in this life. What works for one person doesn't always work for another in standardized or alternative medicine. The key is to find what works for you or for your child. Finding that key requires education. Doctors do not have the time to do all the education necessary and nobody knows you better than you do, except maybe your Mom. :)

It may be that these drugs are over-prescribed. However, for some, they are a lifeline.

While I took Wellbutrin, I felt my emotions were restricted. I wasn't as depressed as when I wasn't on the medication, but I also was never as happy as when I was off of it. I still had a spectrum of emotion, but it just wasn't as big. I had two of the strongest spiritual experiences of my life while I was taking these medications. I started off with the intention to use the medication to help me while I figured out to best way(s) to do it on my own. I also had (and continue to have) a good support system. I recognize my shortcomings, but I try not to use them as a crutch, which was really easy to do at first....

For me, medication was a godsend. It wasn't enough, but I never intended for it to be.

Looking back. . . . my oldest son was diagnosed by his teachers with ADHD. I took him to the pediatrician who was convinced that teachers diagnosing was out of their scope of practice. He refused to medicate my son based on a teachers observations. On one hand I'm glad the doctor didn't medicate my son. On the other hand I might still have my son here with me if we had medicated him, but then I question "would I have really had my son?".

The ideal solution in our case would have been for me to have home schooled our children. At the time we didn't see that as an option. If I could do things over. . . I probably would.

I worked for a year in Psych as an Intake Coordinator. I saw a child psychiatrist prescribe adult antidepressants for a 2 yo. That child did not need medication, he needed to be loved in a stable home enviroment. I often saw children medicated because Mom or Dad had a mental illness that was being untreated because they saw the child as a problem, but the psychiatrist couldn't get mom/dad to accept that the issue may have been them. I also saw children who were in distress and not only needed but wanted the help that medications offer.

If a child is having behaviorial issues, I believe the first course of action should be prayer. Only God can tell you which course of action is right for you and/or your child.

This is not, however, to say that medications are a fail-safe for our problems. Pam has given the perfect example of how medications should be used. They are a tool to help us cope with problems and struggles that could otherwise be overwhelming. We might start an individual on a medication, but when we do, we should have the intent of getting off of medication. Using ADHD as an example, we might put an individual on a medication to help him or her manage the symptoms. As the coping mechanisms become more proficient, the dosage is lowered until medication is no longer necessary. This may take weeks, months, or years, depending on the individual or the severity of the case.

The problem we see with medication--and this is really the problem that some are railing against--is that people are lazy. It's easier to be on medication than to learn to cope with the adversity of a condition. This is the practice a practice we should discourage. But at the same time we need to understand that people who suffer from such conditions require a great deal of compassion, without judgment, in order for them to perfect themselves. Some of the statements given in this thread could easily make a medicated person self-conscious, which can make it difficult to feel the Spirit as well. Let's avoid making universal statements that can cause such feelings, lest we receive our own chastisement.

I believe there is a place for modern medications. I believe there is a place of alternative medicine. I believe that there is an agenda to make money on these modern medications and I believe there are people working hard to make money on the alternatives. We are in a tough world.

I hate prescription drugs, thought I do agree that they have their place in our lives and can be good. I had very bad post partum depression after having my second daughter and went on Zoloft for 5 months. I've realized recently that my depression is getting really bad again, so I'm planning on seeing the dr. this week to help get it under control. But as soon as it's under control I'm going to try to manage it with diet and herbs instead.

How about, "not solely prescription diet pills." Some individuals bodies many not produce enough of the necessary hormones and chemicals required to metabolize what they eat. In such cases, diet pills would be a necessary aid to their health. No one here is implying that diet pills should entirely replace diet and exercise. That implication is a creation of your own fantastical mind.

did you read any of my posts before this one? did you miss the example about the ruler discipline? no i'm not saying ALL what i am saying is the picture you paint of what is going on with our society and medication is inaccurate... do i think it needs an overhaul? yes, do ppl need better education and coping methods? yes are meds bad? no i don't think we have a dope based society and from what i've seen those that have been given meds appropriately and have used them as a tool are better for it. it reduces the amt of drug abuse not increases it.

Is this line of argumentation meant to be provocative? Fun? Now, if your argument is, "In borderline cases, avoid medicine," I could see your arguments.

Studies are showing that our thought patterns can control the brain chemistry. And just last Sunday our Gospel Doctrine teacher (Professor of Biology) read us an article that said science has now proven that genetics is changeable based on our experiences. (I have asked him for a copy of this article.)

I KNOW that our Spirits can control the physical. That's what we are here on this earth to learn. How this fits in with teaching a child with behavioral issues is something I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on. We all have to learn how to let our Spriits be in control and parents are required to not only learn that but teach their children how too.

I pray that somehow we can learn and teach our children. I pray that the suffering happening in families because of these issue can be navigated without destroying those families.

applepansy

[Fiannan]

Margin, perhaps you have assigned me into the category of being totally against using medication which is not my position at all. My position is that we are doping kids today at an alarming rate. Why? Kid's physiology is no different than it was 10 or 20 years ago. What is occuring is that we have created criteria that encourages (insures) that a large segment of our population is going to be listed as having some sort of disorder. Since we have also become a drug dependent society we assume then that taking drugs will solve problems. So now we have everyone trying to explain behavior that is perfectly natural in human expression as falling into a "disorder" category and then medicating it. ADHD is not only too broad in it's criteria, it's also culturally dependent -- if you are a set of quiet parents and you have a loud and active kid you are more likely to think your kid has something wrong with it than if you and your spouce are loud and active and give birth to children with the same pattern. If you live in a society that promotes quietness (even soem people mistakingly thinking quietness is a form of reverence .. pure hogwash) then if your kids don't share the same view then maybe it's easier to think something is wrong with them. Then you get 'em tested and just going to the doctor with a "problem" pre-disposes the doctor to feel something must be wrong -- just like when many doctors give patients antibiotics when they have viral infections...I mean, the patient is here and maybe the antibiotics won't hurt or anything. Remember, doctors have been criticized for this practice for quite some time now.

So when I read of some school districts where 20% or more of the boys in 1st. grade are on ritalin I have to question what we are doing. As the post illustrates that I praised from applepansy what in the world is a doctor thinking when giving a 2 year old anti-depressants?

So if I saw the judicious use of mind-altering medications as we see in most of Europe, where evaluation of any and all disorders is much more strict, then I would see no problem. Of course, in those countries you have government regulation of major drug companies so they are kept under check. In the USA you have a profit-driven drug industry that makes money if more and more doctors are prescribing their drugs -- and representatives from drug companies that make used car salesmen seem shy and restrained visiting doctors constantly praising the virtues of their medications.

Not a good situation.

[MarginOfError]

Margin, perhaps you have assigned me into the category of being totally against using medication which is not my position at all.

Also, one wonders the cost effectiveness between a Catholic nun with a ruler teaching 50 boys in the 2nd. grade or the cost of having to keep up drug company sales people, doctors and multi-billion dollar prescription drug industry.

I'd rather have the nun.

[Gwen]

fiannan, i'm not sure moe is the only one that was under the impression you are compleatly against medicating a child. if you are not totally against the use of medication then maybe you should stop using the phrase "doping our kids" whenever you talk about someone on medication.

it would also be helpful for me to understand your position if instead of countering everything everyone says for medication to say something positive. even if you have to put long and specific boundries to it. ie.... "i agree with using medication appropriately, well monitored, after a compleat diagnosis process with 3 different oppinions, with educated parents, after they have tried every other natural methods that have been proven to be helpful (ie diet, exercise, herbal suplements, etc)." .... notice i didn't throw ruler dicipline in there but that's just me.

the continual insistance that things like ADD (which many here seem to have personal experiance with and know first hand it is real) are not fully proven and suggesting that it doesn't really exist at all doen't help anyone to hear that you some how really agree with anything they say.

but i could be wrong.

[Maya]

How often you experience the nature? We used to live out of town, by a lake... every time I drowe home a special peace fell upon me by the lake. I believe that kids should be able to experience nature and animals a lot more than they do today.

Maria Montessori ( a very famous Italin doctor/pedagogist) says that IF people take better in count each childs tender times... those times when it is easied to the child to learn something (like reading) there will not be any learning difficulties.

Beeing a dyslexic and dysgraphic myself I decided to test that. As soon as my kids asked for letters I tought them letters... that means the older was 3... the younger just wanted to be with and looked at what I we were doing... just a few letters at the time like 3.... and in my sons speed... then easy wrods... when my younger was 4 he red a VERY long word and theya sked me in the montessorikindergarten if he could read... I said ... I dont know... looks like he does:eek:

Both of my sons could read as they entered the school. The older started school at 7. He does have somekind of problems with reading, but they cant find out what and he is doing pretty good in school.

My younger started school at 6 as they lowered the school age here... the thing he learned before christmas was that he dont need to be able to read YET! Later he developed also some kind of problems one of the things that cayused problems may be that his teacher made him errase 30 pages of mat as they had NOT come so far yet... stil the big brother had just got a new book when he finnished the earlier...

I am pretty sure that because they were tought to read when they wanted to learn themselves and were interested... they have not so much problems as tjhey might ahve without beeing thought at the right time. Anyway the school did NOT help with the problems it seamed that it made it worse.

My daughter was best in mathematics on her class as long as I had energy to teach her with montessori method... same with my boys

If the teachingsystem does not notice every individuals needs it is no good. They try to do it here by making fex homeworks with 3 levels... but that is not right.. the lazy ones take the easiest and the ones who like to work take the longer ones, nothing to do with who is good who is not.

Teacher should all the time know where the child is in his learning and feed the child accordingly. Not too difficult not too easy but just suitable for him.

We dont have the homeschooling possibility in this country other ways I had taken my kids out of school a long time ago.

I also believe that MANY problems could be delt with nature and a personal contact with the teacher who sees the level the child is in.

in Finland they have some interesting schools where the kids go 2 years in one class, half of the class going to the next class every year. You can also pass the class in one year or three too. They have noticed that some may go a few years in one year, but later it will smoot out same with it if someone takes 3 years a level they may take the next class in a year.

When the basics are well on place the kids learn faster and when the learning is made interesting they learn without knowing they are beeing taught!

[Fiannan]

I would liken my stance on using drugs to change behavior in kids with the morality of forcing your kid to drink beer. Let's say you and your 6 year old are lost in the desert. It's your third day out and you are fearing for your survival. Then you meet up with a group of people having a keger. The only liquid they have is beer and nobody plans on driving home (thus giving you a ride) until at least 8 hours later.

Is it moral to have your child drink a couple bottles of beer? I'd say yes.

Then let's say you are at the beach and run out of soda or water. You and your child are both thirsty and your friend offers your child a beer. Is that morally justifiable to use in that case? I would say not.

That's how I feel about using drugs. If I had a child suffering from cancer I'd be the first to find him some marijuana if it helped them. Now we have a push-pull situation involving a "disease" (ADHD) that is diagnoses with pensil and paper questionaires and observations. Both are highly subjective tests and thank goodness that's not the way we diagnose other diseases.

Pretend we have a 6 year old in a traditional classroom. The teacher asks a question about deserts and the child raises their hand and starts asking what kinds of lichen from arid areas could grow on Mars. If the teacher has received information that the kid is talented and gifted she will respond to the question positively. If not, she may feel he has trouble staying on task.

Let's say the kid is not listed in TAG and continues to make these sorts of associations. He raises his hand every time the teacher asks a question and eventually sees that she no longer calls on him. He then gets distracted and goes into his own little projects at his desk. This is frustrating for him and eventually the teacher gets cross with him and demands he stays more focused. He responds in an angry tone that he'll do as he pleases.

Guess the kid is on his way to be tested, isn't he?

[Wingnut]

That's how I feel about using drugs. If I had a child suffering from cancer I'd be the first to find him some marijuana if it helped them. Now we have a push-pull situation involving a "disease" (ADHD) that is diagnoses with pensil and paper questionaires and observations. Both are highly subjective tests and thank goodness that's not the way we diagnose other diseases.

I can tell that you practically shudder every time you type the acronym. You have such unwarranted disdain for it. To clarify, ADHD is not a "disease" and I'm not sure anyone has tried to call it that, other than you. In case you weren't aware, the acronym stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It is a disorder, not a disease. The difference, though subtle, is there.

Pretend we have a 6 year old in a traditional classroom. The teacher asks a question about deserts and the child raises their hand and starts asking what kinds of lichen from arid areas could grow on Mars. If the teacher has received information that the kid is talented and gifted she will respond to the question positively. If not, she may feel he has trouble staying on task.

Why do gifted and talented children have to be mutually exclusive from children with ADD/ADHD?

[MarginOfError]

I would liken my stance on using drugs to change behavior in kids with the morality of forcing your kid to drink beer. Let's say you and your 6 year old are lost in the desert. It's your third day out and you are fearing for your survival. Then you meet up with a group of people having a keger. The only liquid they have is beer and nobody plans on driving home (thus giving you a ride) until at least 8 hours later.

Is it moral to have your child drink a couple bottles of beer? I'd say yes.

You'd also have just killed your kid. Alcohol is a diuretic--it requires more fluid be used to process it than is taken in by drinking it.

Then let's say you are at the beach and run out of soda or water. You and your child are both thirsty and your friend offers your child a beer. Is that morally justifiable to use in that case? I would say not.

But your point is well taken. Sometimes a less than ideal choice is required as a stepping stone to the right outcome. However, in your comparison, you managed to call medicating a child with ADHD an immoral decision.

That's how I feel about using drugs. If I had a child suffering from cancer I'd be the first to find him some marijuana if it helped them. Now we have a push-pull situation involving a "disease" (ADHD) that is diagnoses with pensil and paper questionaires and observations. Both are highly subjective tests and thank goodness that's not the way we diagnose other diseases.

As we've already discussed, one of the ways to confirm the diagnosis of ADHD is to give the patient stimulants. If the patient has ADHD, he or she becomes less hyper and more able to focus. In patients without the disorder, the stimulant increases their hyperactivity. Isn't it great to have a deductive, objective, and harmless way to test the diagnosis?

Pretend we have a 6 year old in a traditional classroom. The teacher asks a question about deserts and the child raises their hand and starts asking what kinds of lichen from arid areas could grow on Mars. If the teacher has received information that the kid is talented and gifted she will respond to the question positively. If not, she may feel he has trouble staying on task.

Let's say the kid is not listed in TAG and continues to make these sorts of associations. He raises his hand every time the teacher asks a question and eventually sees that she no longer calls on him. He then gets distracted and goes into his own little projects at his desk. This is frustrating for him and eventually the teacher gets cross with him and demands he stays more focused. He responds in an angry tone that he'll do as he pleases.

Guess the kid is on his way to be tested, isn't he?

I actually was that kid. I was always clowning around in school, never taking assignments seriously, and barely finishing class work in time. My teachers thought I might have some kind of learning disability or behavioral disorder. And you're right, if that was all they had to go on, they never would have noticed that my problem wasn't behavioral. However, they did have an additional measure that often gets used in determining an ADHD diagnosis--test scores. When my fourth grade standardized test scores came back, I was in the high percentiles.

My teachers were floored...how could this obnoxious kid be scoring so high. So for the next several weeks, my teachers watched me more closely They noticed that when I was assigned class work, I would do most of it, leave a little bit of it undone, and then goof off until I was warned that time was almost up, at which point I would finish the assignment. My problem wasn't that I couldn't focus, but that I was so focused I was almost finished with my work well ahead of time.

Kids with ADHD, however, often don't score well in their testing. They are often just as smart and intelligent as their peers but don't have the skills to focus long enough to get the expected marks in the traditional classroom.

When you stop looking for a single criterion that makes a diagnosis and begin to look at the whole picture, you will find that trends exist that give a pretty clear picture of what the diagnosis should or shouldn't be.

Edited December 4, 2008 by MarginOfError
political correctness.

[Wingnut]

Kids with ADHD, however, don't score well in their testing. They are often just as smart and intelligent as their peers but don't have the skills to focus long enough to get the expected marks.

Kids with ADHD often don't score as well in testing. I scored fine, for example. Quite well, in fact.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Wingnut
toot my horn a little louder

[MarginOfError]

Kids with ADHD often don't score as well in testing. I scored fine, for example.

you sure didn't have any problem focusing on my post long enough to catch that fault. I'll make a correction.

[Gwen]

for those who would like to understand learning disabilities and ADD a bit better (if you have them or not)..... and those that don't believe it's real but haven't become 100% closed minded..... i suggest you call your local library and see if they have this video.

How Difficult Can This Be: The F.A.T. City Workshop

[pam]

Kids with ADHD often don't score as well in testing. I scored fine, for example. Quite well, in fact.

Brag brag brag

[Maya]

Heh... kids with learning disabilities score usually not so high either.... well I did score very high (all too high I think, 2-3m points to genious club. Like I said they probably made a mistake ) and she told me, that maybe that is why I have made it as well as I have in school, most with my disability standard get barely through high school. After all I am educated through University... in a x exam, with no writting, I even scored Excellent In School I got only some exellents: One in a paper and reading it to the class about Japans religions. And usually in English (thanks to the Osmonds and 16 magazine... )

I know.. brag ... brag... brag...

My mother always says: Who would lift the cats tail if not the cat herself!?

[Gwen]

ppl with learning disabilities (ADD being in that mix) usually have very high IQ... the reason they struggle in school is the traditional school teaching method isn't compatible with how their brain process the world. also some things (which when you think about it are rather inconsequential in the world) like spelling they do miserably at and that pulls their grades down if they got the answer right or not. or they aren't given the time they actually needed to compleat the task, and so instead of testing what they know you are actually testing how fast the can regergitate the info and they do poorly....

some names you might recognise of ppl diagnosed or accepted to have learning disabilities.... (Famous People With Learning Disabilities)

Albert Einstein

Nelson Rockefeller

Galileo

Thomas Edison

Sylvester Stallone

Mozart

Gen. George Patton

Wright Brothers

Leonardo da Vinci

John F. Kennedy

Cher

F. Scott Fitzgerald

Walt Disney

John Lennon

Robin Williams

Louis Pasteur

Agatha Christie

Hans Christian Andersen

Winston Churchill

Henry Ford

Dwight D. Eisenhower

Alexander Graham Bell

Magic Johnson

Beethoven

Woodrow Wilson

Of course, not all these famous people have been officially diagnosed with learning disabilities, but they have exhibited many of the signs of ADD, ADHD & LD. The world famous author John Irving tells us, "The diagnosis of dyslexia wasn't available in the late fifties - bad spelling like mine was considered a psychological problem by the language therapist who evaluated my mysterious case. When the repeated courses of language therapy were judged to have had no discernible influence on me, I was turned over to the school psychiatrist."

Woodrow Wilson, the American scholar, statesman, and 28th president of the U.S.A, couldn't read until he was ten-years-old. Actor Anthony Hopkins thought he was a "moron," as a child, because he was so hopeless in school. Jack Horner, the model for the renegade paleontologist Allen Grant in 'Jurassic Park', is now the curator of paleontology at the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman, Montana and also a professor at Montana State University. He has found more fossils, pioneered more innovative technologies and postulated more theories about dinosaurs than anyone else, and yet doesn't have a University degree, having flunked out of college seven times.

[Wingnut]

some names you might recognise of ppl diagnosed or accepted to have learning disabilities.... (Famous People With Learning Disabilities)

Albert Einstein

Wasn't Einstein kicked out of school in 3rd grade for being "unteachable"? Third grade was the same year I had to wear a "seatbelt" at school in order to stay in my seat (one of my dad's old leather belts wrapped under the chair and fastened across my lap).

Jack Horner, the model for the renegade paleontologist Allen Grant in 'Jurassic Park', is now the curator of paleontology at the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman, Montana and also a professor at Montana State University. He has found more fossils, pioneered more innovative technologies and postulated more theories about dinosaurs than anyone else, and yet doesn't have a University degree, having flunked out of college seven times.

Woohoo! I'm well on my way, being a two-time college drop-out myself.

[Fiannan]

When you stop looking for a single criterion that makes a diagnosis and begin to look at the whole picture, you will find that trends exist that give a pretty clear picture of what the diagnosis should or shouldn't be.

And how many times is this ignored in real life situations where kids are put on ritalin?

I found one of those tests that is called "Adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1) Symptoms Checklist. If you score 4 our of 6 in the range of "sometimes, often or very often" (of course on a couple of the questions "sometimes" doesn't count) then you are a considered a candidate for this label. However, this checklist ignores a lot of other possible personality issues.

On the first question it asks something about having a hard time wrapping up a project. It fails to account for issues with perfectionistic tendencies which would explain such an attribute. It would also ignore issues with "fear of success" which could be something that could be dealt with in Individual Psychology.

The second question deals with organization problems which again can have its roots in the above.

The third question deals with problems remembering appointments. Okay, there are personality characteristics associated with things like the INTP personality traits found in the Myers/Briggs Junian Personality Test (as well as several other core personalitues) that have this as a characteristic. Many people have a problem with tedius details (i.e. highly creative types).

The forth question deals with getting started in projects that require a lot of thought. Again, issues with failure and success as well as perfectionism.

The fifth question deals with moving around a lot when you have to sit for long periods. Gee, too bad for kenestitic people. Also, since when is not being able to sit through a boring lecture motionless against the human nature?

The final major question deals with feeling like you are driven by a motor. Okay, and the problem again is?

For those who watched the Frontline documentary who would think that the first child was in any way suffereing from a disorder? I like the fact they mentioned that his parents were French and they had never heard of their child's behavior being abnormal for a little boy. The child liked to be a star which is common, so what? And if the child is naturally histeronic is there something wrong with that?

[Gwen]

those self report tests are merely to give ppl a direction so they can get a proper diagnosis if they think they need it. they are indeed a label. i'd like to point out that a label and a diagnosis are not the same thing. i am not qualified to diagnosis so if i say, "you have add" then i'm labeling you (same when a teacher says it). if a qualified professional does tests and says "you have add" then that is a diagnosis. sounds simple but a big difference.

as for the personality traits.... many of those tests were created before the knowledge of add/adhd, or any other learning disability for that matter were ever conceived of. how feasible is it that those ppl were noticing the evidence of add, etc in ppl's lives but at a time with no other way to explain it and so they gave it it's own personality type? for every disability there is an increased talent to compensate. if you look at the list of ppl that have been identified to have learning disabilities there are some very "smart" ppl on it. they excelled at the gifts they were given to compensate and ppl forgot about the things they couldn't do. so yes i can accept that learning disabilities are found on tests as "personality traits". it's a physical issue that shapes who we are.

another thing to consider is many of these personality tests were done when a tradesman lifestyle would support a family. the need to conform to a sit down, books, learning environment was minimal. society has changed making it a different world and harder for ppl with learning disabilities to succeed. you can no longer overlook the things that are hard for you and excel at your talents. your difficulties become painfully obvious to everyone.

[Fiannan]

as for the personality traits.... many of those tests were created before the knowledge of add/adhd...

Or maybe they were designed prior to someone labeling a set of behaviors as a "disorder" and then prescribing drugs to solve it.

Yes, ADD/ADHD is a relatively recent phenomena. And it is not universally recognized or (if recognized) not treated the same way or diagnosed in such a frivilous manner.

Did anyone take note that the Frontline documentary pointed out that American kids consume 4X more pharmaseuticals for psychological "disorders" than all other kids in the world combined? Does that mean the rest of the world (i.e. Germany, France, Italy, Russia, China, Israel...) is just unenlightened or is the US situation truly out of control -- with businesses running the show and many doctors following the lead? Or educators thinking that behavioral control in the classroom justifies druging kids into submission since it might improve their concentration?