Christmas without Christ?

[deseretgov]

I'm get really annoyed with people trying to make Christ an offensive term. Such as the huge thing a few years about Walmart or something saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Also in schools they call it Winter break instead of Christmas Break. People seem so concerned about not mentioning Christmas because it might be offensive.

My question is, isn't there so much Christmas that a person of any religion can celebrate it? WE all know the same old story about early Christanity adapting the pagan holidays, yada yada yada. But why can't a Jew celebrate Christmas? Can't they just exclude the Christ parts and have Santa, Christmas trees, Presents, etc.

I dunno but it seems to me that it would be so easy to sidestep the Christ part that anyone can celbrate it. And if it is a holiday that is applicable to everyone then why should anyone get offended when mentioning Christmas.

What do you all think?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying we should take Christ out of Christmas. I'm just saying that for those who don't believe in Christ why can't the celebrate Christmas without it being about Christ. Can't they have Christmas be about Santa or something?

[AngelLynn]

*sighs* It's this whole thing about being tolerant. Although tolerance only goes so far. When it starts offending or making people get upset that are Christian and do celebrate Christmas because it has been made a Christian holiday. What do people who are not Christian and are Non-thiests want us to do? Go back to Happy Yule, a pagan title for what Christmas was called before we called it Christmas.

I remember a teacher in High School put up a sign in her room that said Merry Christmas. One of the students began to say something and she said, 'Look Christmas is a holiday and I am going to have a sign that says Merry Christmas.' She could have gotten in trouble. But none of the students said anything afterwards or complained about it. I wanted to cheer for her for standing up for Christmas and I respected her a lot for doing it. She didn't get in trouble for it either, surprizingly.

It's not really a big deal, people in Asian countries celebrate Christmas and a lot of them don't put the religious significance that we do. So what is the big deal?

Edited December 4, 2008 by AngelLynn

[Wingnut]

I watched the Rockefeller Christmas show tonight, and at the end of it, Jane Krakowski signed off with "Happy Holidays everyone!" while Al Roker yelled out "Merry Christmas!"

I thought to myself, "I'm surprised no one has started a thread about the irritation of being PC yet." Thank you for not disappointing. (Note: to be read with dry humor, but mostly boredom).

I don't see "Happy Holidays" as being politically correct. I don't see it as taking Christ out of Christmas. I don't see it as trying to not offend people. I don't see it as an attack on Christians.

I see it as being inclusive, rather than exclusive. There are a number of religious holidays in December, one of which (and arguably the most widely known in the USA) is Christmas. I happen to live in an area with a heavy Jewish population. While Christmas is my holiday, and I am inclined to share it with people, Hanukkah is their holiday, and I hope they have a happy one, so I wish them a "happy holiday."

So when someone wishes me a "Happy Holiday," I thank them and wish them the same. And I don't make anything out of it that it isn't.

[deseretgov]

Hehehe. thanks for that wingnut. I didn't mean this thread as a political correctness thread though. I meant it more as a 'Christmas shouldn't exclusivly be a Christian Holiday' thread. It can be a Jewish/Atheist/Muslim/Etc. holiday, can't it? There's enough of Christmas that a person could celebrate it without celebrating Christ, couldn't they?

Anyway, I'm glad I didn't disappoint. Hehehe

[Wingnut]

Thanks for picking up on my mood...not really joking, but not entirely irritated either. Whether you intended it as a PC thread or not, it's bound to turn into one, because that's what we do here. :)

I don't knwo that I agree with the idea that Christmas can cross faiths. Essentially it is Christ-based. There are many people who are not religious at all who still celebrate it, but they focus more on family or other things. Many other religions out there have their own holidays at this time of year, and the get overshadowed. they should be able to celebrate their holiday peacefully, and without anything else being shoved in their faces.

[Moksha]

I didn't mean this thread as a political correctness thread though. I meant it more as a 'Christmas shouldn't exclusivly be a Christian Holiday' thread. It can be a Jewish/Atheist/Muslim/Etc. holiday, can't it? There's enough of Christmas that a person could celebrate it without celebrating Christ, couldn't they?

In all seriousness, I do not like Christmas being replaced by a generic holiday. As Deseretgov said, all faith traditions and those without faith should feel free to join in the spirit of Christmas.

Here is a closer to home concern (even if it is just my own Voice in the Wilderness plea):

In my Ward, last year, the Christmas program was split: Half for Jesus and half for Joseph Smith's Birthday - right down to the same number of songs each. From a personal point of view, I wish they would dedicate the week before exclusively for Joseph Smith and let Jesus have Christmas.

.

[Elgama]

Most main religions have a celebration late Autumn/early winter - Divali, Eid-Ul-Adha. Chanunkah, Birth of Guru Nanak Dev, Samhein, Yuletide etc. As Christians we have Halloween and All Hallows Eve and as Brits we have Bonfire Night, Americans and Canadians have Thanksgiving. Only one I am not sure of is Buddhism.

Personally I think as long as The Holiday Season is celebrated as a time of peace, love and joy, it has Christ in it whatever you call Him or don't, His spirit is present. Even all the tat sold at this time, each piece of tat represents someone in work however poor their pay or conditions are their family stand a chance of eating.

Its what allows amazing miracles like this to occur

Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This came out of a desire to improve mens morale, not religion but I am sure the effect was something the Lord approved of.

-Charley

[Elphaba]

*sighs* It's this whole thing about being tolerant. Although tolerance only goes so far. When it starts offending or making people get upset that are Christian and do celebrate Christmas because it has been made a Christian holiday.

I am not exactly sure what you’re saying here, but I will point out no one is forcing Christians not to celebrate Christmas, nor do they want to.

Commentators like Bill O’Reilly and others have created the myth of the so-called “War on Christmas,“ which has convinced many Christians that non-Christians are offended by the word “Christmas.“

In fact, the only ones who insist this “War on Christmas” is real, are the O’Reilly’s in the world. For the most part everyday non- Christians could not care less.

What do people who are not Christian and are Non-theists want us to do? Go back to Happy Yule, a pagan title for what Christmas was called before we called it Christmas.

People who are atheists, or non-Christians do not want you to do anything. Celebrate Christmas, especially your belief in Christ, and have a lovely day.

I remember a teacher in High School put up a sign in her room that said Merry Christmas. One of the students began to say something and she said, 'Look Christmas is a holiday and I am going to have a sign that says Merry Christmas.'

This is appalling.

It is outrageous she impatiently imposed her religious beliefs on the entire class, by posting a sign that, I suspect, makes a political statement about the so-called “War on Christmas.“

Even worse, it is outrageous she snapped at a student for rightly questioning her insistence on displaying the “Merry Christmas” sign.

Ours is a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic nation with citizens whose origins or ancestries come from nations all across the world. We are not a homogeneous society, and not everyone celebrates Christmas, including this teacher’s students.

This becomes a legal point when the teacher who posts a sign saying “Merry Christmas,“ does so as an expression of her religious convictions

Most parents who are atheists, and/or non-Christians have no problem with the teacher leading a discussion on different religions, but only if it is done in an academic context.

What is not acceptable is the teacher implying one religion is valid, in this case Christian, and all of the others are not, including those some of her students believe in.

To understand why this is so, the following lists some of the more common non-Christian religions that have celebrations during the month of December.

Jews celebrate the eight-day festival known as “Hanukah.”

Native Americans celebrate “Soyal”

Muslims celebrate “Ramadan,” the holiest period of the Islamic year. (Actually, it is not common for Ramadan to begin in December, but it does happen.)

Buddhists celebrate Bodhi Day on December 8.

Iranian-Americans celebrate Shabe-Yalda.

When this teacher posted the phrase "Merry Christmas" because she wanted to celebrate the holiday, she had just excluded all of the non-Christian students who do not celebrate the holiday, including some of those above.

Obviously the way to handle this is not to celebrate Christmas and exclude the other students’ holidays; rather, no religious holidays should be celebrated at all.

Outside of the classroom, things change. The school can put up a Christmas tree in the foyer if it wants. Nativity scenes are allowed on public property, although if the government erects one, it has to be part of a larger display that also includes other, secular signs of the holiday season, or displays referring to other religions

And students can hand out things like Christmas cards on campus. In fact, if the administration tries to stop them, the ACLU will step in to defend the students' free-speech rights, as it did in 2003 when teenagers in Massachusetts were suspended for passing out candy canes with Christian messages.

My point is, there are places in the public arena where it is appropriate, and legal, to post Christmas displays, and no one is trying to take that right from anyone. But it is completely inappropriate to do so in the classroom, especially when the teacher is posting “Merry Christmas” because it reflects her belief system.

It's not really a big deal, people in Asian countries celebrate Christmas and a lot of them don't put the religious significance that we do. So what is the big deal?

The big deal is that, in America, people celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, and people celebrate Hannukah as a religious holiday, and people celebrate ShabeYali as a religious holiday, and all of them are Americans.

How Americans handle each of the above is up to them. If a store owner wants to put up a “Merry Christmas” sign, that is her business. If another one wants to put up a “Happy Holidays” sign, that is his business. And neither of them should be punished for doing so, especially the store owner who uses the phrase "Happy Holidays." He is only trying to be polite and inclusive, yet this paranoia that he is trying to eliminate Christmas is continuously perpetuated by the O'Reilly's in this world.

Speaking of the various school's curriculums, I am shocked by how often they refuse to recognize Christmas, but then take the time discuss other religion’s holidays, especially on the date they land on.

I have read about schools explaining Hannukah, including the steps of lighting the candles, etc. Other schools teach about Islam’s holidays on the day they land as well. But, for some reason, they have stopped explaining what the Christmas holiday is, and that is absurd.

But again, it stresses why it is better not to celebrate any religious holidays in the classroom.

She could have gotten in trouble. But none of the students said anything afterwards or complained about it. I wanted to cheer for her for standing up for Christmas and I respected her a lot for doing it. he didn't get in trouble for it either, surprizingly.

Again, her actions were appalling, and it is outrageous she was not reprimanded for them. It is illegal for a state representative, in this case the teacher, to display a religious symbol because it expresses her religious beliefs, in this case Christianity.

In fact, I am so shocked she was not reprimanded that I question the entire story.

Regardless, it is the student who deserves praise for trying to stand up to her, and it is unthinkable to me she shut the student down in such a rude and dismissive manner.

What kind of teacher would do such a thing?

At her home, her church, her kitchen, her front lawn, or on her rooftop, she can post as many "Merry Christmas" twenty-foot high signs as she wants.

But not in the classroom where she is making a political statement by posting "Merry Christmas" as an expression of her religious beliefs.

Elphaba

Edited December 4, 2008 by Elphaba

[Elgama]

It is outrageous she impatiently imposed her religious beliefs on the entire class, by posting a sign that, I suspect, makes a political statement about the so-called “War on Christmas.“

Even worse, it is outrageous she snapped at a student for rightly questioning her insistence on displaying the “Merry Christmas” sign.

Ours is a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic nation with citizens whose origins or ancestries come from nations all across the world. We are not a homogeneous society, and not everyone celebrates Christmas, including this teacher’s students.

This becomes a legal point when the teacher who posts a sign saying “Merry Christmas,“ does so as an expression of her religious convictions

Maybe its just me but have never objected when a teacher of whatever religion has expressed Happy ___________ whatever being an Archaeologist Happy Samhein, Happy Yuletide etc was a frequent one.

-Charley

[Elphaba]

Maybe its just me but have never objected when a teacher of whatever religion has expressed Happy ___________ whatever being an Archaeologist Happy Samhein, Happy Yuletide etc was a frequent one.

-Charley

Based on your examples, I don't see either of those celebrating a deity, and that makes a difference. Perhaps you have others that do celebrate a deity.

The difference here is she was not merely saying "Merry Christmas" to her students like I suspect those in your example did.

Rather, she insisted the sign be posted, because she wanted to celebrate the holiday.

In my opinion, this violates the Establishment Clause. But even if it doesn't, it was completely inappropriate.

Elphaba

[hordak]

I'm get really annoyed with people trying to make Christ an offensive term. Such as the huge thing a few years about Walmart or something saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Also in schools they call it Winter break instead of Christmas Break. People seem so concerned about not mentioning Christmas because it might be offensive.

Why do Christians(not all obviously) get offended when they say happy holidays?

But why can't a Jew celebrate Christmas? Can't they just exclude the Christ parts and have Santa, Christmas trees, Presents, etc.

They already do that don't they. Hanukkah. A holiday at the same time without Christ,trees, but with presents.

I dunno but it seems to me that it would be so easy to sidestep the Christ part that anyone can celbrate it. And if it is a holiday that is applicable to everyone then why should anyone get offended when mentioning Christmas.

IMO more people get offended when they don't say Christmas, then the other way around.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying we should take Christ out of Christmas. I'm just saying that for those who don't believe in Christ why can't the celebrate Christmas without it being about Christ. Can't they have Christmas be about Santa or something?

They do essentially. The call it Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, winter solstices, etc.

[Elgama]

Based on your examples, I don't see either of those celebrating a deity, and that makes a difference. Perhaps you have others that do celebrate a deity.

The difference here is she was not merely saying "Merry Christmas" to her students like I suspect those in your example did.

Rather, she insisted the sign be posted, because she wanted to celebrate the holiday.

In my opinion, this violates the Establishment Clause. But even if it doesn't, it was completely inappropriate.

Elphaba

oh no they often wrote it on the blackboard, and brought treats in etc that we could celebrate with them usually just before or after the celebration if we weren't in school for them.. I had a Hindu teacher, a Muslim Teacher and a Jewish Teacher we celelbrated lots of religions festivals and in the case of Yuletide and Samhein it was uttered by Pagans. I have never objected to Happy Halloween (another Christian Festival etc). We also had a Happy Gay Pride Day at secondary school with one teacher but guess that is whole other ballgame especially in the US

I like people being strong in their faith and don't think they should have to hide but instead it should enrich the classes and add to the fun of a multicultural society. Its a different issue if having said Happy or Merry Christmas and when the person turned round and said Happy Yuletide etc she had then objected.

_Charley

[Hemidakota]

I'm get really annoyed with people trying to make Christ an offensive term. Such as the huge thing a few years about Walmart or something saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Also in schools they call it Winter break instead of Christmas Break. People seem so concerned about not mentioning Christmas because it might be offensive.

My question is, isn't there so much Christmas that a person of any religion can celebrate it? WE all know the same old story about early Christanity adapting the pagan holidays, yada yada yada. But why can't a Jew celebrate Christmas? Can't they just exclude the Christ parts and have Santa, Christmas trees, Presents, etc.

I dunno but it seems to me that it would be so easy to sidestep the Christ part that anyone can celbrate it. And if it is a holiday that is applicable to everyone then why should anyone get offended when mentioning Christmas.

What do you all think?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying we should take Christ out of Christmas. I'm just saying that for those who don't believe in Christ why can't the celebrate Christmas without it being about Christ. Can't they have Christmas be about Santa or something?

It really doesn't matter what others show as an example may do or think but rather what you do and think, being example for others.

[Elphaba]

oh no they often wrote it on the blackboard, and brought treats in etc that we could celebrate with them usually just before or after the celebration if we weren't in school for them.. I had a Hindu teacher, a Muslim Teacher and a Jewish Teacher we celelbrated lots of religions festivals and in the case of Yuletide and Samhein it was uttered by Pagans. I have never objected to Happy Halloween (another Christian Festival etc). We also had a Happy Gay Pride Day at secondary school with one teacher but guess that is whole other ballgame especially in the US

I have no problem with any of this either. But that's not what happened here.

Its a different issue if having said Happy or Merry Christmas and when the person turned round and said Happy Yuletide etc she had then objected.

She did object.

A student saw what she was doing, and tried to interject. She put him off with: "Look, Christmas is a holiday and I am going to have a sign that says Merry Christmas.”

She objected when she refused to hear the student out.

And, like I said before, it is illegal for her to post religious symbols simply because that is the religion she believes in.

If there is more to this story that indicates otherwise, I will have no problem acknowledging such.

At the same time, even as a hypothetical, it is still a good example of what kind of religious curriculum is legal, or illegal, in a classroom.

Elphaba

[FunkyTown]

Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Merry Kwanza! Happy New Year!

There are numerous holidays right now. I just attribute a whole heck of a lot more significance to Christmas. If someone were Jewish and said "Happy Hanukkah!" to me, I would not be offended. I would say "Happy Hanukkah!" right back.

[Wingnut]

Why do Christians(not all obviously) get offended when they say happy holidays?

They already do that don't they. Hanukkah. A holiday at the same time without Christ,trees, but with presents.

IMO more people get offended when they don't say Christmas, then the other way around.

They do essentially. The call it Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, winter solstices, etc.

To say that the Jewish equivalent of Christmas is Hanukkah is not only incorrect, it shows a great lack of understanding about the Jewish faith.

Hanukkah is nothing like Christmas. The significance is nowhere near the same. Hanukkah isn't even the biggest Jewish holiday of the year.

[DigitalShadow]

The whole "War on Christmas" philosophy amuses me greatly. It sounds very much like a projection of Christians' war on everyone else and an excuse to get all offended when someone dares to try to include other religions when trying to express their good will to others. I find it especially ironic when an LDS member expresses their disgust at having to be sensitive to other minority religious groups in this country.

[hordak]

To say that the Jewish equivalent of Christmas is Hanukkah is not only incorrect, it shows a great lack of understanding about the Jewish faith.

Hanukkah is nothing like Christmas. The significance is nowhere near the same. Hanukkah isn't even the biggest Jewish holiday of the year.

I know that. Point is there are many Religious holidays this time of year and people shouldn't celebrate Christmas (the distorted version at that) with Santa end elves so walmart greeters can say Merry Christmas. People don't say Happy holidays because there trying to make the word Christ an offensive term. It is about including everyone.Now saying merry xmas on the other hand.....

Speaking of the Jews do you think they would be happy if everyone started to celibate Hanukkah, but got rid of the whole religious history, and replaced it with a story based on pagan gods and religious tradition?

Why would the Christians what that?

[Wingnut]

The 'Xmas' complaint is another one that bugs me. Yes, it does grate on me a little read it, but that's partly because I'm not used to seeing 'x' at the beginning of the word.

'Xmas' is not cutting Christ out of Christmas. In fact, it has it's roots several millenia ago in the Greek language. The letter 'X' was commonly used (often paired with another letter, usually 'p' or 't') to denote "Christ."

[hordak]

The 'Xmas' complaint is another one that bugs me. Yes, it does grate on me a little read it, but that's partly because I'm not used to seeing 'x' at the beginning of the word.

'Xmas' is not cutting Christ out of Christmas. In fact, it has it's roots several millenia ago in the Greek language. The letter 'X' was commonly used (often paired with another letter, usually 'p' or 't') to denote "Christ."

Really?I hadn't heard that one.

I always heard it was either a way to avoid taking the lords name in vain(similar to Melchizedek)

Or it was a way for people who like Christmas (the Santa version) but didn't believe in Christ to express it. I guess it goes to show a name is just a name and people will interpretate it

how they want.

[Wingnut]

Really?I hadn't heard that one.

I always heard it was either a way to avoid taking the lords name in vain(similar to Melchizedek)

Or it was a way for people who like Christmas (the Santa version) but didn't believe in Christ to express it. I guess it goes to show a name is just a name and people will interpretate it

how they want.

In many uses, it has become a way for non-believers to reference Christmas, as you mention, but that is not it's origin or original intention.

[DigitalShadow]

The 'Xmas' complaint is another one that bugs me. Yes, it does grate on me a little read it, but that's partly because I'm not used to seeing 'x' at the beginning of the word.

'Xmas' is not cutting Christ out of Christmas. In fact, it has it's roots several millenia ago in the Greek language. The letter 'X' was commonly used (often paired with another letter, usually 'p' or 't') to denote "Christ."

So is this sign trying to say that Jesus is crossing the street, or that pedestrians are worshipping in the street?

[Wingnut]

So is this sign trying to say that Jesus is crossing the street, or that pedestrians are worshipping in the street?

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but it was pretty funny. The association of X with Christmas is based in the Greek language. I'm guessing that the association of X with crossing might have similar roots, but I have not read anything about it.

[DigitalShadow]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but it was pretty funny. The association of X with Christmas is based in the Greek language. I'm guessing that the association of X with crossing might have similar roots, but I have not read anything about it.

I was hoping you would pick up on the fact that I was joking. I thought about editing the post to make it more clear :)

[Hemidakota]

Elder McConkie view of 'XMAS' -

See CHRISTMAS. Since the letter X has been accepted as an abbreviation for Christ, it is not uncommon to find Christmas abbreviated as Xmas, Christian as Xn or Xtian, and Christianity as Xty. These abbreviations do not partake of the real spirit of reverence that should attend a reference to Deity, or to something closely associated with him, and accordingly their use should be discouraged.