State of Europe

[Maya]

In one Norwegean block they say, that even 2/3 of people can dessapear from Lutheran based churches in next 20 years.... because of that they have to follow the states decitions fex in the marriagelaws.

It also states that in a few years islam has grown 3 times biger in Europe. Many European countries have opened their doors to islamic refugies. A few years ago there was a joke going on in this country that if you see a family with many kids it is either islamic or LDS. But today the LDS familysizes have become a lot smaller. 2-4 kids is the usuall, like in families over here is usuall.

Islam grows, as they are not allowed to marry out of religion. However some do, but that is not so many. Ofcourse islamic laws are not nice thowards those that marry outside the religion and I am sure that many dont marry out of religion because of fear. Also many join the islam as they marry an islamic person. To many religion is not at all interesting and they feel it is a low price to pay for a partner they want.

I feel danger in this European loose of religion. Islam can be a good religion as good as Lutheran in many ways, but there are also dangerous sides on it.

Any opinions on this one?

[Fiannan]

There are two primary reasons Muslims leave their countries and move to Europe.

The first is to escape countries that are either theocratic or military dominated and allow for little freedom. Most of these people come from the more educated classes. Many also can find better opportunities for professionally trained people in Europe.

The second group consists of people who can find a better living on the welfore programs offered in much of Europe. Many do wind up with jobs but these jobs are generally very low-end in nature.

The problem is, many of the young people are finding themselves not all that into integrating into the European way of life. Many from educated, and generally secular, families are finding more meaning offered by religion than their parents did. They have grown up in a culture (at elast in Scandinavia) that expects teenagers to be having sex -- and that one should celebrate homosexuality as a wonderful thing and abortion as a cornerstone of western democracy. They also see a people so afraid of offending people that they are getting rid of many of their traditions. So what you have left is a cultural vacume in which the people around you have no real meaning of life or purpose. Sp many Muslim youth turn to something with answers.

Many others, mostly from the poorer immigrants, feel trapped in a system that sees them as something different. They often stop trying in school and build up antagonism towards the Europeans. This has erupted in violent riots in places like France that are similar to the race riots we sometimes see in the United States.

I personally don't blame the Muslims for not wanted to integrate into European culture. Americans I know who live in Scandinavia joke that the only reason they apply for duel citizenship (most live there due to marriage to Scandinavian women) is for easier travel in Europe as well as not to have to mess around with visas if they choose to move to another EU country. Their #1 loyalty is tot he USA. And most Muslims I know who live in Europe identify with their homeland much more than the country they may have been born in.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Fiannan

[NeuroTypical]

Any opinions on this one?

Maybe I'm setting myself up for a world of hurt, but I find reason to be optimistic. If Islam can break out of it's backwards 13th century cultural mindset as a result of converting a continent full of people living in the 21st century, it might give up it's plans for world domination, gain an appreciation for human rights, and perhaps even democracy.

Again, I have no reason to strongly believe this is the case, I'm not arguing it will be the case - I'm just hopeful that it might possibly be the case.

LM

[Elgama]

Islams previous empire building in Europe was very much what brought us forward, without them we would unlikely have had the Industrial Reveolution so early etc they brought some fantastic education ideals, can hardly say the same about what Christian Europe did with its Empire in Africa.

I personally think its a lot people causing fear which is what terrorists do, I know as a Latter Day Saint I am on the Lord's side and ultimately we is gonna win lol gives me a great peace

Personally my expeirence and that of other friends across Europe is there is a Christian Resurgence, for first time in a long time here buying religious cards and presents is easy this year

I don't think negativity should be part of being LDS, I remember a talk about that by President Hinckley, that we have the choice we either dwell in fear or we choose like LM to see the good in every situation and remain positive.

Personally i would not trade what I have for the US except maybe giving our kids a bigger family, as ultimately thats even more important than living conditions

-Charley

[Moksha]

I feel danger in this European lose of religion. Islam can be a good religion as good as Lutheran in many ways, but there are also dangerous sides on it.

Any opinions on this one?

More power to religion, but in regards to Islam - I am uncertain how compatible it is with a Western Democracy and the ideals and traditions have have been developed since the Age of Enlightenment. This seems to be causing much consternation in Denmark and France.

[a-train]

Islam is COMPLETELY compatible with classical liberalist thought. It is whether or not classical liberalism can be believed in by Muslims, and I think it can.

Part of our trouble in America is that we have developed a phony "American" culture. True American classical liberalism is completely at ease with various customs coexisting together. Perhaps a Jew or a Muslim will adhere to the strictest code of living imaginable, both visible in dress and in deed. It is when we alienate them on that basis that the trouble begins.

With the globalization of commerce and trade will come a tremendous push toward freedom and good government everywhere; and with that there will come more fearce opposition. In fact, it is already here. This is why there is so much corporate clamour for mercantilism in the United States. These businesses want advantages in the global economy, and they want the taxpayers to fund it and Uncle Sam to enforce it. They have always used national, religious, and racial lines to draw support. We have been exhorted against and even taxed heavily for buying Korean or Japanese products or engaging in business with them.

It is the basis of commerce the brings people together. Think of the people you work with. Think of the customers you serve. The vast majority of these you would have little or no relation if it were not for the business you conduct.

Like I said, there are those throughout the world that fear more global division of labor and commerce. Most of them do so for their own priviliged economic situation. Some also fear cultural change, but all their efforts from peaceful to violent, from little to tremendous, whether they are a corporate lobbyist backed by a gigantic money machine or a lone suicide bomber, they cannot stop the overwhelming desire of each individual to improve their situation.

Muslims will continue to be just as engaged as the rest of the world in making themselves marketable in the global economy.

-a-train

Edited December 11, 2008 by a-train

[Maya]

Thank you all of you it has been so interesting to read the discusition.

Yes the terrorists are spreading fear and also misunderstanding amongst people. And often it is the youth that find their way to terrorism. We in Norway too have a man who was a terrorist... at least that is what they found out... sometimes they find out the truth they want to. He was sent out of country I think.

After sep.11 I got a few weird messages on my cellphone from outside Norway. First one just said "Dont fly on 21.21" . Later one said that everything is ready... There was something else too that I tought was very weird all together about 4-5 messages ... I marced to the Police with the phone and he tok up the messages... I ahd deleted the first two I think... but the lastones had enough for him to take them up and I told about the last one. About half a year later they said in news that they had caught more terrorists around Turky thanks to that they contacted a wrong phone in Norway...

I hate what the terrorist do to usual Islamic people.

I hope LM is right!

Now I have to get my boys to a church dance....