Epistemology

[KristofferUmfrey]

Wow, a lot of comments to chew on here from last night. I need to take some time to think about them one by one and post my thoughts. Thank you very much for the insightful perspectives...

Except for you KristofferUmfrey. You have now posted that scripture twice, somehow intending to imply that I am laying the foundation for the destruction of the world on the basis that I went to law school. You're out of line. I guess it's a good thing I'm not a lawyer...

Rame, I find it interesting that you quoted Indiana Jones for the notion that "truth" is a philosophical question...especially since my original post on this subject was mostly about the value of philosophy.

What did you study in law school, Pete?

[Moksha]

I know over time, through hope and faith, truths are revealed to that person until it becomes knowledge.

Is this not however a highly situational means of gaining knowledge? Consider the Scientologist or Pastafarian having knowledge that their beliefs are true.

[Hemidakota]

Wasn't Paul who stated this? For me, it starts this way until it is manifested and confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Now, can both groups you name do the same?

[Moksha]

Wasn't Paul who stated this? For me, it starts this way until it is manifested and confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Now, can both groups you name do the same?

They may have their own methods of claiming true knowledge. Whether any of this qualifies in an epistemological sense as claiming their beliefs constitute verifiable knowledge is best left to others. I can however state without equivocation, that my beliefs are true for me and that they need no verification because they are based upon a willing leap of faith.

:)

[Justice]

Where absolute truth is concerned, who, what, when, where, why, and how are replaced by the feelings of the Spirit.

When man tries to determine truth, he does so by observation and experiment. Unless man discovers everything about a subject his studies will never be able to conclude absolute truth, but only a percentage of certainty. The only sure way for man to know something is true is to have it revealed from the heavens.

Our senses can deceive us. Even if we watch something happen we can reach a false conclusion. I don't need to remind you of the many things man once thought were true by observation and experiment that they later learned were not.

But, when God reveals something to man, the discussion is over. There is no need to observe or experiment. The hard part is allowing yourself to "know" something when you did not satisfy your curiosity of the particulars by study, observation, and experiment.

God even asks you to experiement on His words. We can know that each and everything God has revealed is true... for oursleves. He will tell us if it is true. But, if we don't let Him, or if we don't believe He will and we doubt, then we are again left to ourselves to reach conclusions.

We must give up our pride in our own understanding. We must realize that what we know and understand always has a chance of being flawed. We must give way to what is revealed. We must choose God's truth over ours... without seeing. It's called faith, and although a small thing, it is how God teaches us.

When we put into practice what we learn from God it is called wisdom.

This is how truth and wisdom are related.

[Traveler]

Philosophy is valuable to me because it has the tendency to require stepping into different perspectives. It questions fundamental meaning in a way that allows us to examine our own understanding of the world. One of my favorite philosophers, Slavoj Zizek, once said that philosophers often get a bad rap because they are seen as competitors for a unified theory of life, the universe, and everything. This gets philosophy wrong. One of the most popular philosophical debates throughout history is the question between free will and determinism. People have gone back and forth trying to understand how free will is possible if God is omniscient and already knows every choice we will ever make. According to Zizek, it is not philosophy to ask whether we are subject to free will or determinism. Philosophy asks a different question: "what does it mean to be free?"

I wish to apply this philosophical mindset to knowledge. Growing up in the church, I have heard thousands bear their testimonies. Most often, I hear the following phrase: "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, I know the scriptures are true, I know the prophet is the mouthpiece of the lord." This certainty has always fascinated me. What does it mean to "know" these things?

Like Descartes, I have previously thought that I knew things that turned out to be false. I have actually been embarrassed many times by asserting what I considered to be True, when in fact it was not. I was so confused about what constituted "knowledge" that I started studying theories of knowledge...a branch of philosophy called "epistemology"...an investigation into how we know what we know.

(image from wikipedia article on "epistemology")

The above classical definition of knowledge draws a distinction between "truth" and "beliefs." Knowledge is when beliefs correspond with "truth", which is objectively verifiable and scientifically provable. "Belief" denotes faith, a prediction that something is true, without objectively verifiable evidence of truth.

From this, I understand faith, and I understand Truth (even if I am skeptical of it), but I do not understand knowledge as phrased in this context. I don't understand what it means to "know the church is true" or "know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God". I believe the church has it partially right, but I also believe the church has it partially wrong, and neither of these beliefs have been proven or shown to correspond with "truth". Therefore, I cannot say that I "know". Many people in the church don't seem to have this problem. So...I submit the following question:

How do you know what you know?

Let me ask how it is that we know anything? How do you know your paradigm of belief truth and knowledge is itself true? What have you done to test it? Is it not possible that you believe it to be true only because of the power of suggestion?

The problem with knowledge and truth is that we humans are wired in our brain to perceive and interpret not to actually sense. Even the sense of pain mentioned before in this thread is not an actual sense but an interpretation by the brain of what we think is an actual experience. We are always faced with the problem of what we know and what we think we know. This is a basic problem of human communication.

If something cannot be interpreted, especially in science we cannot perceive if something exists or is true. This is a big problem. I would submit that electrons do not exist – at least they do not exist in the manner that they are explained. As a scientist that has dealt with sub atomic particles I can tell you that our explanation of an electron is a good one but we know that it has flaws. There are things that happen at the sub atomic level that we have yet to find explanation for and means to perceive.

Yet even without an incomplete knowledge of electrons we have created a modern society very dependent on electricity (electrons). When a person turns on a light switch they have amazing faith that the light will come on despite the fact that we have all experienced a time when the light did not come on – and there is no one on the planet that always knows why. What we think we know is a probability based on an uncertainty principle.

What is the surest knowledge that I have experienced? It is not science, it is not math – Above all these things I know I love my wife, my children and my grand children. I am sure that G-d is a father that loves his children in the same manner. I know goodness is superior to evil – and I know that intelligence is greater than ignorance. I know that logic is superior confusion. I am sure G-d is good, intelligent and logical. I know that discipline is greater than unbridled, uncontrolled thinking and behavior. I know that sacrifice for the greater good is superior to selfishness and self serving. I am sure G-d is disciplined and unselfish – willing to sacrifice self for the greater good. This knowledge cannnot be tested or measured in a lab by me or anyone else - does that make my love false? or my knowledge unreal? No it does not.

I am sure that faith in a intelligent, disciplined and unselfish G-d is more logical than faith in electrons, math or science. The quality of life is not advanced as well by technology as it is by moral, unselfish enlightenment.

How do I know - because something greater than me has communicated the thought - which is the true and only beginning of knowledge.

The Traveler

Edited December 26, 2008 by Traveler

[Abraham]

Knowing is a spectral thing. Knowing from a Primary-aged child is a bit different from a Patriarch or an Apostle knowing.

I like the encapsulation in II Ne 2:8.

What we must do however, is take our 'knowledge' and build it until it becomes perfect.

Abraham