The Power Of A Witness

[Ray]

Snow,

I’ll make one more comment on this point, and then I’ll hang up my hat.

Have you ever read the Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith Junior? If so, then I am of the opinion that you have yet to understand what he was talking about.

To put his thoughts into my own words, I would say that Faith is a power that leads us to be convinced or assured that something is true, and without Faith, we can only reason that something might be true.

For instance, did you hear me say that I do know that trees are falling, even though I’ve never seen even one tree fall? How do you suppose I know that?

Do you suppose that I’m relying upon my own powers of reasoning to convince me that must be true? What if I were to tell you that my powers of reasoning alone only lead me to believe that it is highly probable that trees are falling in the woods, and that my powers of reasoning alone still leave me with a sliver of doubt that trees actually do fall in the woods. Would my argument then make more sense to you?

Having then admitted that my powers of reasoning alone leave me with a sliver of doubt that trees actually do fall in the woods, what would you then recommend that I do to convince me, beyond a shadow of doubt, that trees are actually falling in the woods?

Would you tell me to go watch a certain number of trees fall in the woods, and then analyze those trees to determine that they actually did fall without any outside force making them fall? How much time would you recommend that I spend doing that? Please keep in mind that it may take quite a while for a tree to fall and then analyze why that tree fell.

Or perhaps you would recommend that I read some books written by people who claim that after having subjected a certain number of trees to extensive analysis, they have determined that trees actually do fall in the woods without any outside force making them fall. Is that what you would recommend… that I trust those authors to be telling me the truth?

Or perhaps you would recommend that I see a psychiatrist and get some “smart” pills, or receive a priesthood blessing, to help me increase my powers of reasoning beyond their current level. As you suggested, perhaps there are certain issues in my life that are limiting my ability to see that reason alone should absolutely convince me that trees are falling in the woods even though I can’t see them. Is that what you suggest? It’s too bad that you live so far away, otherwise I could ask you for that priesthood blessing, huh?

Oh well, fortunately for me, I have received an assurance from God assuring me that trees are in fact falling in the woods, so that I now have absolutely no doubts about it. And whether you believe me or not, my testimony is still true.

Btw, I also know what Joseph Smith Junior said in his so-called 'Lectures on Faith' is true too. And it's not because I trust Joseph Smith Junior to be telling me the truth, but because I've received a personal assurance from God.

[Setheus]

well, I spent a week in the woods and guess what I discovered!

Trees DO NOT fall in the woods! The woodland elves go around and find dead trees and gently lie them down on the soil, hold funeral services, then allow the bugs and bacteria to devour the trees corps. Simple as that.

Its the circile of life....

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Setheus@Nov 22 2004, 11:51 AM

well, I spent a week in the woods and guess what I discovered!

Trees DO NOT fall in the woods! The woodland elves go around and find dead trees and gently lie them down on the soil, hold funeral services, then allow the bugs and bacteria to devour the trees corps. Simple as that.

Its the circile of life....

Bambi killer!

[Setheus]

Mmmmmm Tastes like chicken. :)

[Snow]

Three Questions Ray:

1. Does 1 + 1 = 2?

2. How do you know?

3. Do you really mean to claim that God has personally revealed to you because of your faith that fallen trees got that way by falling?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@ Nov 22 2004, 07:42 PM

Three Questions Ray:

Heh, okay, I’ll rephrase what I’ve already said.

1. Does 1 + 1 = 2?

Yes

2. How do you know?

That idea was first introduced to me by somebody way back when and then confirmed to be true through the power of the Holy Ghost.

3. Do you really mean to claim that God has personally revealed to you, because of your faith, that fallen trees got that way by falling?

If I understand you correctly, Yes, meaning that God personally revealed to me, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that “fallen trees got that way by falling”. Until that moment it was only an idea that made sense to me and might have been true, but I came to know that the idea was true through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Are we on the same page now, Snow man?

[Deb]

Almost seems like some things just can't be explained or expressed in words. Like describing the taste of salt. It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees. I'm hoping that you are really just playing around and that no real animosity exists here.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Deb@Nov 23 2004, 02:33 PM

It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees.

Cheer up little buckaroo! Jesus' apostles bickered about even sillier things. (like circumcision)

[Ray]

Heh, what makes you think that I’m “bickering” with Snow? I don’t think I’m bickering. I’m just trying to help him see the point I’m trying to explain. And btw, this is about a whole lot more than falling trees. The real issue here is concerning the power of a Witness… like the power of my testimony, the power of Snow’s testimony, and the power of a testimony from the Holy Ghost.

Would you like to add something else to the testimony you have shared with us here?

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Deb@Nov 23 2004, 02:33 PM

It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees.

I thought you were a chick? Deb...short for Debbie or Debrah.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 23 2004, 12:23 PM

Are we on the same page now, Snow man?

We're on the same page in that I understand your position. We are not on the same page in that I think you are 400 megabytes short of a gigabyte.

I have an image in my head of you in a dark room on bended knee pleading that the truth of 1 + 1 = 2 be revealved to you by the power of the Holy Spirit and then you fill with joy as your bosum burns with affirmation.

Then I wonder how it is that others, evil atheist mathematicians, know - more certainly than you that 1 + 1 = 0 when they are not privy to the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit. But I don't wonder that for long.

Finally I conclude by reflecting how sad it is that you think that God's crowning achievement, his work and his glory - man - is so pathetically weak and stupid and illogical that he cannot know that 1 + 1 = 0 without his direct involvement through the Holy Ghost

[Deb]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 23 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 23 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 23 2004, 12:23 PM

Are we on the same page now, Snow man?

We're on the same page in that I understand your position. We are not on the same page in that I think you are 400 megabytes short of a gigabyte.

I have an image in my head of you in a dark room on bended knee pleading that the truth of 1 + 1 = 2 be revealved to you by the power of the Holy Spirit and then you fill with joy as your bosum burns with affirmation.

Then I wonder how it is that others, evil atheist mathematicians, know - more certainly than you that 1 + 1 = 0 when they are not privy to the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit. But I don't wonder that for long.

Finally I conclude by reflecting how sad it is that you think that God's crowning achievement, his work and his glory - man - is so pathetically weak and stupid and illogical that he cannot know that 1 + 1 = 0 without his direct involvement through the Holy Ghost

I didn't do real well in Math class, but I'm fairly sure that 1 + 1 does NOT equal zero. Maybe YOU should get on YOUR knees and maybe it's YOU who's a few megs short of a gig.

[Deb]

Originally posted by Setheus+Nov 23 2004, 05:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Nov 23 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Deb@Nov 23 2004, 02:33 PM

It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees.

I thought you were a chick? Deb...short for Debbie or Debrah.

I presume Ray and Snow are fellow Priesthood holders. I was not including myself. Also, call me old fashion, but I do not appreciate being called a "chick." I find it quite rude. If we females are chicks (chickens), what counterpart word do you suppose should be used for you males? I doubt THAT word can be used on this chat site.

[ST:DS9]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 24 2004, 06:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 24 2004, 06:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Setheus@Nov 23 2004, 05:18 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Deb@Nov 23 2004, 02:33 PM

It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees.

I thought you were a chick? Deb...short for Debbie or Debrah.

I presume Ray and Snow are fellow Priesthood holders. I was not including myself. Also, call me old fashion, but I do not appreciate being called a "chick." I find it quite rude. If we females are chicks (chickens), what counterpart word do you suppose should be used for you males? I doubt THAT word can be used on this chat site.

Sure you can say the word that would match with us,

Swine (Pig)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Deb@Nov 24 2004, 05:04 AM

I doubt THAT word can be used on this chat site.

lol! That's my laugh for the day! Go ahead and say it Deb. I double dare ya!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 24 2004, 08:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 24 2004, 08:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Deb@Nov 24 2004, 05:04 AM

I doubt THAT word can be used on this chat site.

lol! That's my laugh for the day! Go ahead and say it Deb. I double dare ya!

Me, too! B)

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 24 2004, 05:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 24 2004, 05:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Setheus@Nov 23 2004, 05:18 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Deb@Nov 23 2004, 02:33 PM

It saddens me to see fellow Priesthood holders bickering about something like falling trees.

I thought you were a chick? Deb...short for Debbie or Debrah.

I presume Ray and Snow are fellow Priesthood holders. I was not including myself. Also, call me old fashion, but I do not appreciate being called a "chick." I find it quite rude. If we females are chicks (chickens), what counterpart word do you suppose should be used for you males? I doubt THAT word can be used on this chat site.

I'll refer to whomever I please as a chick. Why? Because I am up before the COCK crows each day and I fight for your freedom daily. I have killed men and quite frankly it makes me feel a little COCKY and there is nothing wrong with that as long as I don't become too prideful.

I'm not going to worry if chick offends you because I know women that detest being called ma'am because they think it sounds like a sick sheep's noise. If you don't like to be called chick then as you read my posts replace the word with any one of your choosing your royal highness. <----that really says CHICK!

You know for an old chick your pretty hott! B)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@ Nov 23 2004, 09:05 PM

I have an image in my head of you in a dark room on bended knee pleading that the truth of 1 + 1 = 2 be revealved to you by the power of the Holy Spirit and then you fill with joy as your bosum burns with affirmation.

Heh, that might be the way you think of that moment, but I wasn’t in a dark room on bended knee pleading for the truth. I received that truth as simply as I receive a breath of fresh air. Haven’t you ever had an “Ahh!” moment?

Then I wonder how it is that others, evil atheist mathematicians, know - more certainly than you that 1 + 1 = 0 when they are not privy to the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit. But I don't wonder that for long.

Even evil atheist mathematicians can come to know the truth of some things, but they won’t come to know the truth of all things unless they accept, and do not reject, the power of the Holy Ghost.

Finally I conclude by reflecting how sad it is that you think that God's crowning achievement, his work and his glory - man - is so pathetically weak and stupid and illogical that he cannot know that 1 + 1 = 0 without his direct involvement through the Holy Ghost.

… the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world…was in the world… and the world knew him not.  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: - John 1:9-12

Btw, I find it interesting that you did not know about your math error when you wrote what you wrote, and I wonder if you would have ever known if someone hadn’t pointed it out for you. And of course, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know about your error now.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 24 2004, 01:50 PM

Even evil atheist mathematicians can come to know the truth of some things, but they won’t come to know the truth of all things unless they accept, and do not reject, the power of the Holy Ghost.

Even President Hinckley has stated that he, the prophet, doesn't know the truth of all things. I have yet to meet any mortal who does. I guess we can all join the ranks of the evil atheist mathematicians.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 17 2004, 12:22 PM

Does a tree fall in the woods if nobody is around to see it?

In other words, do we believe trees are falling in the woods if we don’t see them?

If so, how do we know? 

Are you considering the people who have never been in the woods?  How do they know?

Any ideas?

If a tree falls in the woods, I would have no knowledge of its falling without seeing it or hearing it...unless someone reported it to me.

1. I know trees exist because I see them.

2. I know gravity exists, because I have seen it causes objects to fall.

3. Therefore, I can conclude that trees CAN fall (in general), using that logic.

If we are using this for an analogy for God's existence, then it looks like this:

1. I do not know gods exist because I do not see them.

2. I do not know the Church is True because I never saw a god, a miracle, etc...

3. Therefore, I can conclude that I don't know.

So if someone tells me that a tree fell, I have some experience (having seen trees and gravity) to base my faith on, even if I never saw a tree fall in my life.

But if someone tells me that a god exists, I have no experiences to base that on.

[Deb]

Huh?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Nov 26 2004, 01:47 PM

2. I know gravity exists, because I have seen it causes objects to fall.

That's pretty amazing.

Tell me, what did gravity look like and how did you know it wasn't something else, like, oh, say, the weak force, or maybe the strong force?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Setheus+Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Nov 17 2004, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Nov 17 2004, 01:29 PM

How do you know the tree fell there?  Maybe it just grew that way.  Or maybe somebody yanked it up from it's roots in another part of the forest, cleverly hid the hole, and transported it to that part of the forest, dug a hole matching the exact dimensions of the roots just to trick you and test your faith that it actually fell there!

Sure you could tell. If someone did what you describe you could tell by the un-natural markings left behind. If someone dug it up there would be tale tale signs on the roots of near by trees and the soil would be less packed than the surrounding soil. Also there would be clear drag marks or tracks from where the tree was moved. The smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air from the heavy equipment needed for such a task. Also if the tree DID fall there, the other near by trees would have broken branches and parts of the fallen tree in their branches. (good sign if the trees are different species). The list is endless

smell of carbon monoxcide would be in the air

Just a picky correction---carbon monoxide doesn't have a smell--it is a colorless, odorless gas. What you are problably meaning to say is the smell of the exhaust--whose odor is due to the smell of unburned hydrocarbons.

[Cal]

You all talk as if there really were any such thing as an "absolute truth" of anything or that it is possible to "know" something in an absolute sense.

I challenge both those assumptions: All truth is relative to your frame of reference and your condition in life--what is true for some, is not for others--.

The closest thing to some sort of "truth" is that "I perceive that I exist"--in other words we percieve that we percieve. Everything else are degrees of speculation--some things seem much more likely to be true than others, but I have yet heard anything that doesn't contain an element of uncertainty.

It seems some of us require certainty to maintain hope and confidence in the future--but this is a psychological trick we play on ourselves to avoid the pain of fear that comes from living in an uncertain world.

[Setheus]

You guys sound like little children that psych themselves up and every little noise that they hear (or don't hear) makes them think the boogey man is after them.

You want absolute truth? "I am that I am".

How can you say that you don't know that God is because you can't see Him?

I don't see the rounds whizzing past me but I hear the gun blasts and I see the dirt around me burst up in clouds of dust. I hear and see tree branches and leaves fall around me. But based on youre logic I should be able to just walk on up to the enemy...oh wait, I can't see him either. So the bullets may not be real and the enemy may not even be there. Could just be a strange natural occurance that causes dirt to fly and tree branches to fall. And for the zipping sound flying past me, thats just in my head or a fast flying insect. The men falling at my side, they are just playing a trick on me. Or is it a trick of the senses to help me deal with "an uncertain world"?

IF you don't know that God is and that God lives. You need to start all over. I know it is impossible to "prove" to others that God is, but thats part of the deal. Thats part of faith and growing to the point that you do know that God is. Its His will that we can not prove it to others. Only His appointed Holy Spirit can "prove" this to you. But, if you just look at the signs around you it doesn't take a smart man to figure out that God is behind it all.