Resources for learning about the Apostasy

[DavidFilmer]

Greetings!

I am a Catholic who has been studying the Mormon doctrine of the Great (Total) Apostasy.

I have been reading the 1909 book by James E. Talmage (a member of the member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) titled "The Great Apostasy." Although I have a hardcopy, this particular book is out of copyright and is freely available at Google Books:

The Great Apostasy: Considered in ... - Google Book Search

I am only about 3/4 of the way through the book (currently on page 133) and I'm struggling to finish it. It is so shoddy that it is painful to read. I am embarrassed on behalf of the many good Mormons I have known to think that I am reading a book by a Mormon theologian. But, hey, I can sympathize - there are lots of shoddy Catholic theologians, and they embarrass me as much as I suppose Talmage embarrasses many Mormons.

So I'm thinking to myself, "surely, since 1909, the Mormons have come up with SOMETHING better than this!" So, should I plow my way through the end of this book, or is there a better and more cogent resource that I should be directing my attention towards? (I'm looking for an actual book, not a website).

Thanks!

[pam]

Funny you should mention this subject. A friend of mine had just recommended a book to me on the subject that he had finished. It's called Turning from the Truth by Alexander B. Morrison.

I have not read it so I can't personally recommend it. Nor have I read the one you are currently reading.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Read the Nicene and Athanasian creeds....

Just yankin your chain.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Greetings!

I am a Catholic who has been studying the Mormon doctrine of the Great (Total) Apostasy.

I have been reading the 1909 book by James E. Talmage (a member of the member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) titled "The Great Apostasy." Although I have a hardcopy, this particular book is out of copyright and is freely available at Google Books:

The Great Apostasy: Considered in ... - Google Book Search

I am only about 3/4 of the way through the book (currently on page 133) and I'm struggling to finish it. It is so shoddy that it is painful to read. I am embarrassed on behalf of the many good Mormons I have known to think that I am reading a book by a Mormon theologian. But, hey, I can sympathize - there are lots of shoddy Catholic theologians, and they embarrass me as much as I suppose Talmage embarrasses many Mormons.

So I'm thinking to myself, "surely, since 1909, the Mormons have come up with SOMETHING better than this!" So, should I plow my way through the end of this book, or is there a better and more cogent resource that I should be directing my attention towards? (I'm looking for an actual book, not a website).

Thanks!

Yet, James E. Talmage is the source of much of modern LDS interpretation of their beliefs.

[Guest ceeboo]

Great apostasy ????:confused: ( What is that )

I do not know what your talking about :lol:

:lol:

The Ceeeeeeebooooo

[rameumptom]

Talmage was a great thinker in his day. His writings were a beginning of LDS thoughtful discussion on such issues and topics.

Today, we would state that there was not a complete and absolute apostasy. Many truths remained upon the earth in the various Christian and non-Christian faiths, for instance.

But there was a loss of truth and authority that occurred with the death of the apostles. Today, we have evidences that were not available in Talmage's day: such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, that give us greater understanding of Jewish belief and teachings in Jesus' day. We also have many early Christian writings that were not available in his day (such as the Nag Hammadi library).

Professor Bart Ehrman, New Testament scholar at UNC, has written several books on the differing contests between the early Christians and their belief systems. Margaret Barker, Methodist preacher and Old Testament scholar, has written many books on how the First Temple beliefs were lost during the Deuteronomist reforms, regained by Jesus and the early Christians, and then lost again. She has noted that Mormonism has helped restore many of those early teachings and beliefs.

There are several websites and blogs where you can find more info on many of these things. I suggest you start at fairlds.org.

The reality is, many of the ancient teachings were lost or changed. Even the belief in the Trinity is an issue that was "resolved" politically, rather than by revelation during the Nicene Council. Even then, it wasn't fully resolved, and they returned decades later in the Chalcedon Council to determine the duality of Christ!

Issues such as whether babies should be baptized became an issue. St Augustine insisted that the new born child that died without baptism would burn in hell! This caused many Catholic scholars to create limbo as a safe place for the innocents. But recently limbo has been determined to be non-Biblical, and so the Catholic Church seeks a biblical answer to what happens to nonbaptized dead babies, besides resigning them to flames.

Professor Ehrman explained that the early Church thrived on continuing revelation. But many people claimed revelations, and many others wrote revelatory books and then put apostles' or prophets' names on them, creating a pseudo scriptural group of books. The proto-orthodox (Ehrman's term) sought to stop the propagation of books, and so set out to establish a set group of books. St Jerome was tasked with compiling the books of the Bible. His first goal was to ensure a proper provenance back to the claimed apostle or prophet. He almost threw out Hebrews and Revelation, but the Western Church insisted it remain, even though their provenance was questionable. He threw out many books that had extreme revelatory experiences in them, including the book of Enoch, even though the book was considered holy scripture for centuries, and is quoted 39 times in our modern New Testament!

They insisted that revelation was finished and the bible complete. While this fulfilled the desire to end the Gnostic expansion into orthodox Christianity, it also stopped the Church from being one that received insight and direction via revelation - as it had done for millennia.

So future problems were decided not by revelation, but by councils. The early Jews and Christians believed in an anthropomorphic God and his Son, Jesus. Origen, one of the foremost early apologists of the proto-orthodoxy, was very clear in physically separating the Father and Son, the son being "subordinate" to the Father. Centuries, Greeks' philosophy of God, and the Nicene Creed later, St Augustine would condemn Origen as a heretic, even though he was once considered a saint!

Priesthood authority would also become an issue. We believe that much of the authority was lost when the apostles died. We do not believe there was an apostolic succession from Peter to the modern Pope. The Bible and early Christians showed the apostles, such as John as the actual leaders of the Church until after 90 AD, and not Linus, Anaclitus or Clement (who were bishops, but not apostles). The concept of a presiding bishop/Pope in Rome was not fully established until Gregory I (ca 590 AD). Before that, decisions were made by councils of bishops, and not the bishop of Rome.

The Protestant Reformation came about due to realizing there were things wrong with the Catholic Church. Indulgences, Inquisition, baptism of babies, questions on authority, etc., all became issues of discussion. King Henry VIII's creation of the Anglican Church was founded on the assumption that it was the king who held authority and not the Pope in establishing the Church in England.

The concept of a "priesthood of believers" came about to explain how churches could be created without an actual priesthood sent down from God. Yet, this also did not follow the Biblical pattern. The Bible lays out prophets and apostles as the pattern. They are the foundation of Christ's Church, with Jesus as the "chief corner stone" (Eph 2).

Many people realized this and sought the day when the Lord would restore his ancient and primitive church.

What were some of the Reformers saying?

John Wesley realized that the gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer found:

It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian;...From this time they almost totally ceased;...The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens....This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left. (Wesley's Works, vol 7, Sermon 89, pp. 26-27).

Wesley's point is interesting to note, when one considers what the early Christian, Justin Martyr, stated to the Jewish priest, Trypho: that the only difference between the Jews and Christians was that the Christians had revelation; and if the day ever came that the Christians were to cease having revelation, they would be no better than the Jews.

Roger Williams put it this way:

There is no regularly constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502).

Even the great Statesman and Deist, Thomas Jefferson, realised that the Christian Church was severely lacking and awaited the Restoration:

The religion builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies, and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers....Happy in the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity, I must leave to younger persons to encounter and lop off the false branches which have been engrafted into it by the mythologists of the middle and modern ages. (Jefferson's Complete Works, vol 7, pp 210, 257).

In a letter to the also graying Thomas Jefferson, John Adams said that "some may say I am no Christian" because he did not believe in the concept of the Trinity. Or rather, he viewed it much differently. The two of them agreed when the Bible says, "God is Spirit." But then they went on to ask each other, what exactly does that mean? Did it mean the jumble of opinions that the Trinitarians conceived, or did it mean something else entirely? How did one create an entire creed based on three words, and then expect everyone to agree with that politically based decision?

These are just examples of the problems seen by Reformers and others that determined there was a definite problem that happened somewhere along the way between the apostles' death and today.

This is where a Restoration was needed: to bring back many of the lost and important beliefs, ordinances, and authorities.

Edited December 30, 2008 by rameumptom

[rameumptom]

Great apostasy ????:confused: ( What is that )

I do not know what your talking about :lol:

:lol:

The Ceeeeeeebooooo

BTW, what exactly IS a Ceeboo, and how has it been affected by the Great Apostasy? Are there any less-than-Great Apostasies that have affected you as well?

[Guest ceeboo]

BTW, what exactly IS a Ceeboo, and how has it been affected by the Great Apostasy? Are there any less-than-Great Apostasies that have affected you as well?

Hello Mr. Ram :)

You ask " exactly what is a Ceeboo"??

A Ceeboo is ( currently ) a 7 year old boy ( our son ):)

A nickname given to him years ago by my bride and has stuck.

Now I have a question for you.

What exactly is a rameumptom ???

[rameumptom]

Hello Mr. Ram :)

You ask " exactly what is a Ceeboo"??

A Ceeboo is ( currently ) a 7 year old boy ( our son ):)

A nickname given to him years ago by my bride and has stuck.

Now I have a question for you.

What exactly is a rameumptom ???

The word "rameumptom" comes from the book of Mormon. In Alma 31:21, Alma has gone on a mission to a people called the Zoramites. On their Sabbath, they would take turns climbing up the Rameumptom, which means "holy stand/pulpit" and recite a prayer that basically stated: "Holy, holy God, we're glad you've chosen us to be your saved people, while the Nephites will rot in hell."

Given how much I stand on my soapbox, I have long used the term for my internet persona, probably close to fifteen years.

[mnn727]

Talmadge embarrassing? No, boring maybe, but embarrassing - nope

[Hemidakota]

Greetings!

I am a Catholic who has been studying the Mormon doctrine of the Great (Total) Apostasy.

I have been reading the 1909 book by James E. Talmage (a member of the member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) titled "The Great Apostasy." Although I have a hardcopy, this particular book is out of copyright and is freely available at Google Books:

The Great Apostasy: Considered in ... - Google Book Search

I am only about 3/4 of the way through the book (currently on page 133) and I'm struggling to finish it. It is so shoddy that it is painful to read. I am embarrassed on behalf of the many good Mormons I have known to think that I am reading a book by a Mormon theologian. But, hey, I can sympathize - there are lots of shoddy Catholic theologians, and they embarrass me as much as I suppose Talmage embarrasses many Mormons.

So I'm thinking to myself, "surely, since 1909, the Mormons have come up with SOMETHING better than this!" So, should I plow my way through the end of this book, or is there a better and more cogent resource that I should be directing my attention towards? (I'm looking for an actual book, not a website).

Thanks!

Talmage my friend was a scientist and an Elder in the church who knew his stuff and what is written is correct. There is no embarrassment with truths. It only comes to those who claimed to know but in reality, do not.

[omega0401]

There are a few books on the Apostasy. Here is one that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. It's called The Inevitable Apostasy and the Promised Restoration by Tad R. Callister and it is 464 pages in length.

If you want to read about the Apostasy, this is the first book I would recommend. I enjoyed it much more than Talmage's book. It gives a lot of sources from where he got his information from. You will definitely learn a lot from it.

If you are interested, it can be purchased at Amazon. Here is a link and with more information from other readers...

The Inevitable Apostasy

.