What Is The Worse Sin?

[Traveler]

Having read a number of posts, I have had cause wonder, so in my wonderment I would like to ask the forum a little question. As we are all aware there are a number of times in scripture that there has been such great wickedness that G-d has intervened and destroyed a city, a nation or during the time of Noah, almost all of mankind.

My question is as follows: What are the great sins that bring destruction and why do you believe destruction is necessary in that case of the sin you personally think is so great. Please provide your top 5 “deadly” sins. Feel free to speak out and list your pet peeve sins but be sure to include why your favorite sins are so “BAD” and require a cleansing death as the only option.

I admit that I am sort of asking a trick question (at least in my mind) but I thought I would shake this thought and see what fell out in the forum. Just in case you are wondering, I have one for sure sin on my list – but it may surprise most of you – especially when I give my explanation as to why it is so bad.

The Traveler

[Blessed]

Hmmmm. I don't know if I have 5, but I do have some.

1. Rejecting Christ after you have known Him.

2. complacency

3. backbiting

4. lying

[Traveler]

Not much interest in sin????

A thought - the most deadly sin is that sin kept rather than repented. It is whatever is thought to be so insignificant that “surely G-d will not keep me out of heaven for _____”. I will let the reader fill in the blank. Often I am amazed at what some will buy into “potage” for their birth right in eternity.

Blessed – you listed rejecting Christ after you have known him as a major sin. Some list “turning your back on G-d”. To be honest I cannot think of any sin that is not a manifestation of rejection of Christ and his atonement or turning your back on G-d.

For the record I will list what I think is the most effective temptation and sin. It is the consideration of one’s self-importance. It is the “I want”, “I need”, “I deserve”, “I was born to _____” or “I was born to be _____”. It is the me, my rights, my money, my life, it is mine and I can do what I what with it. It is the desire to find one’s self, one’s place or one’s talents. The list can go on and on but I believe the first step toward sin, toward addiction, toward bondage, toward slavery, toward bitterness, toward hopelessness, toward destruction is the empirical desire to gratify one’s self and the desires of me.

Likewise the first real step to liberation, freedom, enlightenment, joy, hopefulness is to overcome personal desires in a quest to assist or help another. It is the sacrifice of self for the betterment of others.

The Traveler

[Blessed]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 14 2004, 06:44 PM

Not much interest in sin????

A thought - the most deadly sin is that sin kept rather than repented. It is whatever is thought to be so insignificant that “surely G-d will not keep me out of heaven for _____”. I will let the reader fill in the blank. Often I am amazed at what some will buy into “potage” for their birth right in eternity.

Blessed – you listed rejecting Christ after you have known him as a major sin. Some list “turning your back on G-d”. To be honest I cannot think of any sin that is not a manifestation of rejection of Christ and his atonement or turning your back on G-d.

For the record I will list what I think is the most effective temptation and sin. It is the consideration of one’s self-importance. It is the “I want”, “I need”, “I deserve”, “I was born to _____” or “I was born to be _____”. It is the me, my rights, my money, my life, it is mine and I can do what I what with it. It is the desire to find one’s self, one’s place or one’s talents. The list can go on and on but I believe the first step toward sin, toward addiction, toward bondage, toward slavery, toward bitterness, toward hopelessness, toward destruction is the empirical desire to gratify one’s self and the desires of me.

Likewise the first real step to liberation, freedom, enlightenment, joy, hopefulness is to overcome personal desires in a quest to assist or help another. It is the sacrifice of self for the betterment of others.

The Traveler

You made a very good point there, T. Every sin is a rejection of Christ to a degree, but I am thinking more alone the lines of knowing and accepting Him as Savior or in another way to put it... knowing and accepting the Spirit and then later down the road, say, "bah!" In the Scriptures it is alluded as the unforgivable sin.

I would agree with your list. Good post. It got me to thinking.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 14 2004, 05:44 PM

For the record I will list what I think is the most effective temptation and sin.  It is the consideration of one’s self-importance.  It is the “I want”, “I need”, “I deserve”,  “I was born to _____” or “I was born to be _____”.  It is the me, my rights, my money, my life, it is mine and I can do what I what with it.  It is the desire to find one’s self, one’s place or one’s talents.  The list can go on and on but I believe the first step toward sin, toward addiction, toward bondage, toward slavery, toward bitterness, toward hopelessness, toward destruction is the empirical desire to gratify one’s self and the desires of me.

Likewise the first real step to liberation, freedom, enlightenment, joy, hopefulness is to overcome personal desires in a quest to assist or help another.  It is the sacrifice of self for the betterment of others.

The Traveler

Good point, Trav. Take a look at Isaiah 47:10, which jumped out at me when I first read it as the most basic description of human sinfulness:

"... and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me."

Recall that one of the names of God is "I am." I consider that to mean that it is God, and only God, Who really Is, or exists in the ultimate sense. Everything else we experience appears to us as less than it really is -- as a kind of shadow, through a glass darkly. (Yes, I'm a little Platonist, but so was Paul. And the final scene in C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle seems to draw on this kind of idea.) I don't think it's accidental that Isaiah uses the phrase "I am" here. Basically, he's saying that the foundation of sinful foolishness is for a human being to declare "I am, and none else beside me" -- both usurping God's exclusive claim on real existence, and denying, first, that He exists at all, and second, that other people exist as objects worthy of concern.

Or I could be wrong. This could be seen as conflicting with the Mormon doctrine of intelligences -- the teaching that the human soul, or at least some essential part of it, has existed co-eternally with God. This is from the King Follett discourse, which actually says these "intelligences" are "co-equal" with God. I've read Mormon commentators suggest that this is a mistranscription -- that Joseph Smith really said "co-eternal" or meant to. (The suggestion is probably in response to anti-Mormon evangelicals who go absolutely berserk at the "co-equal" notion, which even the King Follett discourse itself acknowledges seems radical; at one point, Joseph Smith tells the listeners that though the doctrine seems strange, he "ha it from God" so people can agree or "lump it." I wish Conference speakers would be as blunt sometimes, but I digress.)

Anyway, what if the portion of the human soul that is composed of the "intelligence" really is co-equal, as well as co-eternal, with God? My understanding of traditional Christian teaching is that God is the only being who has existed for all time. (See John 1:1-3; Helaman 14:12) If that is true, then the only way "intelligences" could be "co-eternal" with God would be for them to be "co-equal" -- that is, one with God in some way, just as the Father and the Son are "one" in some way other than the ordinary understanding of the word.

I'm going out on a mile-long limb with speculation here, but maybe that's the relationship between God, the "Light of Christ," and "intelligences": They're the same thing, at least in some sense -- a kind of "divine spark" (like Jeff Daniels' character says in "Gettysburg") that is in some way a portion of the Spirit of God. (Which is itself God. I'm getting seriously dizzy. No wonder the Athanasians finally just said "LOOK! This is what we're going to believe about the Trinity. Never mind that it's illogical -- just shut up or we'll have you whacked! Which will hurt! A lot!")

OK, major digression concluded. Back to the subject, trying to tie it all together. Anyway, if you consider "intelligence" to be "part" of the one God (after all, once we've established that God can be one and three at the same time, as the Book of Mormon has it, why not one and three bazillion?), then you do away with the potential conflict between "God is the only being whose existence is so complete that He can truly say "I am" and the doctrine that intelligence, also, is eternal and truly existent. Then you can consider that when the carnal man says "I am, and none else beside me," he's declaring the supremacy of the not-fully-real, "shadow" part of his personality, rather than deciding to unite his will with God's, and let his true self -- his intelligence -- prevail. Basically, he's electing the unreal over the real. If I wanted to go full-bore into geekdom, I could say he's doing what the traitor did in "The Matrix," preferring comfortable computer-generated illusion to hard reality, but then you'd worry that I have no life and go around in black trench coats and think that movie was a lot deeper than it really was. (It was OK, and the sequels stank.)

Wow. I really need to get back on my medication. (Not really, for the benefit of any irony-challenged reader.) Please pardon above extended mental joy ride.

[Amillia]

The greatest sin is a thankless heart.

[StrawberryFields]

I have a stupid question.

Does anyone else see the "symbols" in Travelers post? Does it mean something?

I have always thought the worst sin was murder, and it was only second to denying the Lord.

[DisRuptive1]

I always thought the worst sin is zealotry, going way too far. Did you hear about that woman that cut off her boy's arms?

What about all those people that flock to the side of a water tower when an image of the virgin mary is on it?

Idolotry is really bad too.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Dec 16 2004, 04:34 AM

I always thought the worst sin is zealotry, going way too far. Did you hear about that woman that cut off her boy's arms?

I did read about that... absolutely disgusting! I think that one of the worst, if not THE worst, sin is abusing children. Small children have absolutely no way to protect themselves, and sometimes don't even think it's abuse. They just think it's the way the world works. It is absolutely the worst when the person who abuses them is a parent - one of the few people that the child loves unconditionally, and gives their complete trust to.

I can't even stand to read the news anymore because of stories like this that always seem to find their way to the main page of new sites... all about the ratings, I guess.

[Amillia]

"Light of Christ," and "intelligences": They're the same thing, at least in some sense -- a kind of "divine spark" (like Jeff Daniels' character says in "Gettysburg") that is in some way a portion of the Spirit of God.

hmmm. I guess you could quote the Doctrine and Covenants verses about the light being in everything, giving it life.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Dec 16 2004, 05:12 AM

I did read about that... absolutely disgusting! I think that one of the worst, if not THE worst, sin is abusing children.

Thank you. I completely agree. If every person in the world would cherish children, the world would be a wonderful place.

[john doe]

I think one of the worst sins, not to mention a crime against nature, would be a fat person wearing a belly shirt.

[Traveler]

Thought I would add something just for fun. I have noticed that when it comes to sin (what is right vs what is wrong) people tend to draw the line so that they are on the right side of things. People in general, it seems to me, think that evil is someone else's problem and that "deep down" they are good and what they do is ok if you realize why they do it.

For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger.

Does anyone else see a problem with this kind of thinking? (Note to Strawberry - there is something symbolic here)

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 19 2004, 07:57 AM

For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger.

I haven't particularly noticed this mindset on this board with a couple of exceptions. Many of our beliefs about sin are formed by how we interpret scripture. One person may interpret a scripture literally and unbendingly. Another person may take language and cultural context into account. Still another may take into account extra biblical religious texts. It's not always as simple as "The scriptures say..." The pattern I notice about sin is that there is always an absence of real love in sin. Stealing, committing adultery, murder, dishonoring parents, etc. are all things that cause others pain and unhappiness. They are always selfish acts that put the momentary gain of the perpetrator before the well being of the victim.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Dec 19 2004, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Dec 19 2004, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Dec 19 2004, 07:57 AM

For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger. 

I haven't particularly noticed this mindset on this board with a couple of exceptions. Many of our beliefs about sin are formed by how we interpret scripture. One person may interpret a scripture literally and unbendingly. Another person may take language and cultural context into account. Still another may take into account extra biblical religious texts. It's not always as simple as "The scriptures say..." The pattern I notice about sin is that there is always an absence of real love in sin. Stealing, committing adultery, murder, dishonoring parents, etc. are all things that cause others pain and unhappiness. They are always selfish acts that put the momentary gain of the perpetrator before the well being of the victim.

Curvy--great answer!

The greatest sin: Trying to decide what makes SOMEONE ELSE sinful.

IMHO it comes from a desire to make every one else less "rightous" than one self.

My definition of sin: Any intentional human activity that damages, demeans or deprives oneself or another without a higher social justification, and on balance does more harm in the world than good.

Now all we have to do is define: damage, demean, deprive, social justification, harm and good. Since none of us will ever agree on these definitions nor the assumptions that underly them; no one will ever be able to define sin for anyone but oneself.

Perhaps the only logical defintion of sin is defined only by the person, for himself. What every person knows in his own heart to be wrong, and does it anyway, is sin.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Dec 19 2004, 11:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Dec 19 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Dec 19 2004, 08:54 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Dec 19 2004, 07:57 AM

For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger. 

I haven't particularly noticed this mindset on this board with a couple of exceptions. Many of our beliefs about sin are formed by how we interpret scripture. One person may interpret a scripture literally and unbendingly. Another person may take language and cultural context into account. Still another may take into account extra biblical religious texts. It's not always as simple as "The scriptures say..." The pattern I notice about sin is that there is always an absence of real love in sin. Stealing, committing adultery, murder, dishonoring parents, etc. are all things that cause others pain and unhappiness. They are always selfish acts that put the momentary gain of the perpetrator before the well being of the victim.

Curvy--great answer!

The greatest sin: Trying to decide what makes SOMEONE ELSE sinful.

IMHO it comes from a desire to make every one else less "rightous" than one self.

My definition of sin: Any intentional human activity that damages, demeans or deprives oneself or another without a higher social justification, and on balance does more harm in the world than good.

Now all we have to do is define: damage, demean, deprive, social justification, harm and good. Since none of us will ever agree on these definitions nor the assumptions that underly them; no one will ever be able to define sin for anyone but oneself.

Perhaps the only logical defintion of sin is defined only by the person, for himself. What every person knows in his own heart to be wrong, and does it anyway, is sin.

Please simplify. Around and around we go~

[Lindy]

I will agree with rejection of God and/or the Christ after knowing the truth in your heart. To deny the Holy Ghost...same thing to me

Another biggy to me....Sexual perversion - I think that is self-explanatory

Murder- a commandment that shouldn't be broken

and I'll adopt a couple of Gandhi's deadly sins: Pleasure without Conscience and Worship without Sacrifice

I really like that last one......made me think about a lot of things.

that's 5

[Blessed]

I like the last one too, Lindy. Ouch!!!

[Traveler]

I posted that most judge sin by what sin does to others. The more damage it causes to others the worse the sin. I have tried to turn that around and focus on what sin does to the person committing sin rather than on others.

Why, because others do not have to buy into the sin and make it theirs as well. They might find a way to keep your sin from destroying their life.

This means that you get to decide what effect sin has with you. Strangely enough others can over come or become overcome by sin regardless of all your efforts for good or evil. When I would complain to my father about how hard something was he would just smile put his are around me and say "Let me in on a great secret. No matter how hard a task is there will always be some that find a way to get it done. No matter how easy a task, there will always be some that find a way to fail at it. The great secret is that it is always the same that succeed and always the same that fail. The real choice then is yours. Are you one that will succeed or one that will fail?"

I have thought on this idea, who it is that succeeds and oversomes sin and who it is that fail and are over come by sin. It always goes back to one thing. You will succeed if you are willing to sacrifice your self - for G-d and others. You will fail if what you do is for your self. Therefore I believe the first step to evil is selfishness and the first step away from evil to good is diciplined self sacrifice. I believe the course can be completed to good or evil in just three simple steps. Based on what the first is what might the forum consider as the natural steps to follow?

The Traveler

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Cal@Dec 19 2004, 10:00 AM

The greatest sin:  Trying to decide what makes SOMEONE ELSE sinful.

Take that argument to its logical extreme. Are you really suggesting that it is a greater sin for me to characterize a murderer as "sinful" than it is for the murderer to murder?

The Sermon on the Mount does say "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Religious liberals have taken that injunction and made nonjudgmentalism the highest religious principle, with the result that liberal religion has become thin gruel indeed. Other scriptures, though, clarify that "judgment" is one of the "weightier matters of the law" that should not be neglected. Judgment is a heavy responsibility: we will be judged with whatever judgment we judge, so the injunction to "judge righteous judgment" demands serious attention.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 20 2004, 11:38 AM

I posted that most judge sin by what sin does to others. The more damage it causes to others the worse the sin. I have tried to turn that around and focus on what sin does to the person committing sin rather than on others.

Why, because others do not have to buy into the sin and make it theirs as well. They might find a way to keep your sin from destroying their life.

I know someone whose step son molested the children she had with the father of this perpetrator. He was turned in and the law dealt with him. She has chosen to help her young children through this terrible ordeal but to not carry the burden of his sin. By doing this, does it make the sin less of a burden to this perpetrator?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Dec 19 2004, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Dec 19 2004, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Dec 19 2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by -curvette@Dec 19 2004, 08:54 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Dec 19 2004, 07:57 AM

For all the discussions people seem to say - their ideas are ok but those that disagree with them are in danger. 

I haven't particularly noticed this mindset on this board with a couple of exceptions. Many of our beliefs about sin are formed by how we interpret scripture. One person may interpret a scripture literally and unbendingly. Another person may take language and cultural context into account. Still another may take into account extra biblical religious texts. It's not always as simple as "The scriptures say..." The pattern I notice about sin is that there is always an absence of real love in sin. Stealing, committing adultery, murder, dishonoring parents, etc. are all things that cause others pain and unhappiness. They are always selfish acts that put the momentary gain of the perpetrator before the well being of the victim.

Curvy--great answer!

The greatest sin: Trying to decide what makes SOMEONE ELSE sinful.

IMHO it comes from a desire to make every one else less "rightous" than one self.

My definition of sin: Any intentional human activity that damages, demeans or deprives oneself or another without a higher social justification, and on balance does more harm in the world than good.

Now all we have to do is define: damage, demean, deprive, social justification, harm and good. Since none of us will ever agree on these definitions nor the assumptions that underly them; no one will ever be able to define sin for anyone but oneself.

Perhaps the only logical defintion of sin is defined only by the person, for himself. What every person knows in his own heart to be wrong, and does it anyway, is sin.

Please simplify. Around and around we go~

Maybe its NOT simple?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 20 2004, 10:38 AM

I posted that most judge sin by what sin does to others. The more damage it causes to others the worse the sin. I have tried to turn that around and focus on what sin does to the person committing sin rather than on others.

Why, because others do not have to buy into the sin and make it theirs as well. They might find a way to keep your sin from destroying their life.

This means that you get to decide what effect sin has with you. Strangely enough others can over come or become overcome by sin regardless of all your efforts for good or evil. When I would complain to my father about how hard something was he would just smile put his are around me and say "Let me in on a great secret. No matter how hard a task is there will always be some that find a way to get it done. No matter how easy a task, there will always be some that find a way to fail at it. The great secret is that it is always the same that succeed and always the same that fail. The real choice then is yours. Are you one that will succeed or one that will fail?"

I have thought on this idea, who it is that succeeds and oversomes sin and who it is that fail and are over come by sin. It always goes back to one thing. You will succeed if you are willing to sacrifice your self - for G-d and others. You will fail if what you do is for your self. Therefore I believe the first step to evil is selfishness and the first step away from evil to good is diciplined self sacrifice. I believe the course can be completed to good or evil in just three simple steps. Based on what the first is what might the forum consider as the natural steps to follow?

The Traveler

Why, because others do not have to buy into the sin and make it theirs as well. They might find a way to keep your sin from destroying their life.

I agree this might be true for some sins; but consider the effects of adultery on children. How can they protect themselves from the fall out of those kinds of acts by their parents? Or consider spousal or child abuse. Pretty hard to say, "don't buy into the effects". Even lesser things. Say lying to your boss about the hours you are putting in on the job. Eventually you lose your job---if you have a family to support, the fall out may be pretty drastic.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Dec 20 2004, 11:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Dec 20 2004, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Dec 19 2004, 10:00 AM

The greatest sin:  Trying to decide what makes SOMEONE ELSE sinful.

Take that argument to its logical extreme. Are you really suggesting that it is a greater sin for me to characterize a murderer as "sinful" than it is for the murderer to murder?

The Sermon on the Mount does say "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Religious liberals have taken that injunction and made nonjudgmentalism the highest religious principle, with the result that liberal religion has become thin gruel indeed. Other scriptures, though, clarify that "judgment" is one of the "weightier matters of the law" that should not be neglected. Judgment is a heavy responsibility: we will be judged with whatever judgment we judge, so the injunction to "judge righteous judgment" demands serious attention.

No, PD, you read too much into my statement---I was being a little sarcastic.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Cal@Dec 20 2004, 03:56 PM

No, PD, you read too much into my statement

I do that a lot ...