Were Adam and Eve born?

[JohnOF123]

I meant a little more in depth.

When a baby is born now, exactly what happens? Are the body and spirit both created together? Did the spirit exist before? Does God "put or place" a spirit that He created prior to conception in the body created by man and woman?

Feel free to elaborate.

Ohh I see. I'll assume you are talking about us now, not Adam and Eve.

Yes, I believe body and spirit are created together, not before.

[Justice]

So, God does not create the spirit of man?

[Justice]

Speaking of death, what does this scripture mean?

Ecclesiastes 12:

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Interesting word "return" isn't it? The body returns to the earth and becomes dust again, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it life.

What does it mean by "the spirit shall return unto God" if both the body and spirit are made at the same time at conception?

[Blackmarch]

I think your answer is found in Genesis 1:27 and also Genesis 2:22

"So God created man in his own image.."

"Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man.."

It seems clear that the human race was created, not born.

He made man from the dust of the Earth and woman from mans rib.

unfortunately the bible does not define born for us beyond a new beginning- created and born do not exclude each other.

[Hemidakota]

I'm a little new to LDS.net, but thought I would put this question out there. My question is: Were Adam and Eve born?

I was recently listening to a gospel talk by (I think) Vivian McConkie Adams, called Father Adam Mother Eve. In the talk Sister Adams states that Adam was born; she quotes Joseph F. Smith for support. Then she Quotes Brigham Young, something to the extent that if Adam were formed from a lump of clay he would be resurrected as a lump of clay.

I'm looking for the refferences she states. I think I might have found the quote from Joseph F. Smith. But I found it online, so I'm a little skeptical. The quotes are below.

If anyone has any info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I know that my Redeemer liveth; . . . I know that God is being with body, parts, and passions and that His Son is in His own likeness, and that man is created in the image of God. The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I, as likewise did God, His Father grow and develop to the Supreme Being that He now is. Man was born of woman; Christ the Savior, was born of woman and God, the Father was born of woman. Adam, our earthly parent, was also born of woman into this world, the same as Jesus and you and I."

Joseph F. Smith (Desert Evening News, Dec. 27, 1913, Sec III, p. 7; Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 18, 1936, pp, 2, 8).

"Man has descended from God: In fact, he is of the same race as the Gods. His descent has not been from a lower form of life, but from the Highest Form of Life; in other words, man is the most literal sense, a child of God. This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also. There never was a time, probably, in all the eternities of the past, when there was not men or children of God. This world is only one of many worlds which have been created by the Father through His Only Begotten."

Joseph F. Smith, Course of Study for Priests, 1910, under the subject "The Creation of Man," cited in Deseret News: Church Section, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 8

Now that you researched the material and may have already formed an opinion, what is your next act in order to find the truth?

Though, many of the Saints gloss over this precious little morsel of truths within the first few chapters of Genesis, there is a key hidden with the rib story that provided insight to humanity first beginning.

[Seminarysnoozer]

unfortunately the bible does not define born for us beyond a new beginning- created and born do not exclude each other.

I agree, this is why I think the word procreate might help distinguish what we are pondering here. It's a topic we won't know all about here in this life but interesting to ponder.

Question for Justice: You mentioned you believe Adam and Eve's body were created perfect, and so do I. And with that you demise they could procreate with that body. What about the perfected bodies for those in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom, they will have perfect bodies too, can they procreate? I know they won't have that ability but is it a function of their physical state or is it just a law or somehow they will be castrated from that ability? Well if those bodies can't procreate, why is it such a stretch to say that Adam and Eve in the Garden couldn't procreate?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Adam could learn from Eve, sure, but they couldn't be together if they were separated by spiritual death. Adam chose to be with Eve.

They weren't too far separated because I thought Eve came to Adam and explained what happened right after she ate from the tree. Personally, I believe that Adam fell that men might be. ... In other words he couldn't procreate without the fall, in my opinion.

[Justice]

Yep. The word "couldn't" works for both possibilities.

I'm not sure about what will become of us in the different degrees of glory. I'm not certain about how procreation will be limited to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It very well could be a knowledge only those gain in that glory.

I really love Alma 12 and 42. It takes some diving in and dissecting. I have learned many important things in those 2 chapters about the fall and Satan's plan.

[Hemidakota]

They weren't too far separated because I thought Eve came to Adam and explained what happened right after she ate from the tree. Personally, I believe that Adam fell that men might be. ... In other words he couldn't procreate without the fall, in my opinion.

Or that Adam would remain seperated from Eve when Eve was casted out of the Garden.

[Hemidakota]

Yep. The word "couldn't" works for both possibilities.

I'm not sure about what will become of us in the different degrees of glory. I'm not certain about how procreation will be limited to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It very well could be a knowledge only those gain in that glory.

I really love Alma 12 and 42. It takes some diving in and dissecting. I have learned many important things in those 2 chapters about the fall and Satan's plan.

Wasn't it President Young who stated, "..there are many kingdoms below us and many kingdoms above us"? However, our salvation requires to know was before and what is after this state.

[JohnOF123]

Speaking of death, what does this scripture mean?

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Interesting word "return" isn't it?

This scripture does not say that the spirit lived with God before birth and then returns to Him after death. It says that the spirit will "return to God who Gave it". The Bible teaches that God creates our mortal bodies and then forms a spirit within us. Giving, creating and forming something is a completely different thing than reproducing or procreating it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Or that Adam would remain seperated from Eve when Eve was casted out of the Garden.

Right, but I think he also did it knowing what was required to bring about God's plan. It wasn't just that he didn't want to physically be away from her. I mean, he was alone from her for some period of time before he had his rib plucked out.

I think our discussion stems from whether one believes innocent means ignorant or innocent means never having experienced sin and shame. I don't think either Adam or Eve were ignorant to the process of procreation before they ate of the tree of knowledge. After all, the knowledge we are talking about here is not biology or physics or mathematics etc, it is the knowledge of good and evil. One can have a knowledge of procreation without associating any quality of good or evil to the process. I know that is hard to comprehend in our world but I really think Adam and Eve understood how to procreate before they ate the fruit, in fact, I think they understood a lot more than after they took the fruit because at that moment the veil fell over them and they lost knowledge ... they fell. Like all of us, their intelligence and knowledge was cut off.

To procreate one does not have to have either good or evil thoughts. Do animals have good or evil thoughts when they procreate? What kind of farmer doesn't know about procreation? Adam tended the garden, he knew all about procreation before eating the fruit. I can't see how knowing about good and evil suddenly made him say "Oh, that's how it is done"

So, from that, is where I arrive that Adam and Eve could not physically procreate before the transformation of their bodies took place until after the fall. Maybe they felt they had to cover something up with fig leaves because before there was nothing to cover up, I don't know. Anyways ..... thanks for letting me rant again. :)

[Justice]

This scripture does not say that the spirit lived with God before birth and then returns to Him after death. It says that the spirit will "return to God who Gave it". The Bible teaches that God creates our mortal bodies and then forms a spirit within us. Giving, creating and forming something is a completely different thing than reproducing or procreating it.

God creates our mortal bodies? I have 3 children of my own. Is this some symbol you speak of? Because, I know how my children's bodies were formed.

You know, sometimes you have to understand what's being said instead of limiting what's being said to your own understanding. The word "return" implies you were there before.

Show me exactly where the Bible says our body and spirit are created at the same time.

[Justice]

It starts here:

Genesis 2:

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Interesting the scriptures point this out. I believe it is to show us the difference before and after.

Then:

Genesis 3:

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

See how the knoweldge they gain is tied directly to knowing they were "naked?" If one is to procreate, they must first recognize male and female and recognize nakedness.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Here, they had spoken to God face to face some unknown number of times. But, now, after they eat the fruit they hide from Him because they were "naked."

The knowledge of being naked is a prerequisite for understanding how to procreate.

Then, as if to solve all confusion, God relates the 2 together:

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

I believe their bodies were perfect in every way. The fall did not grant them the ability to procreate, but the carnal knowledge necessary to learn and understand how.

It's like giving a young child a high performance racing car... until the child learns how to start it and drive it, he "can't" drive it.

If you think of the pre-mortal existence, there were 2 things we needed in order to become like our Father in Heaven.

1. A body

2. The knowledge of good and evil

In the Garden they had a body, but did not become like God until they ate the fruit and "learned" good and evil. As a result of eating the fruit, God said:

22 ...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...

Picturing it from the pre-mortal existence, if we were to gain eternal life (and what we know it means), we needed to learn how to procreate. This required a carnal world with carnal desires, one that could not exist where God is. This is the world that Adam and Eve gave us by their fall. God, knowing this before hand, already foreordained Jehovah to redeem mankind from the required carnal state of spiritual death for all those who repent and choose spiritual life over carnal life.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

If you think of the pre-mortal existence, there were 2 things we needed in order to become like our Father in Heaven.

1. A body

2. The knowledge of good and evil

In the Garden they had a body, but did not become like God until they ate the fruit and "learned" good and evil. As a result of eating the fruit, God said:

22 ...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...

Picturing it from the pre-mortal existence, if we were to gain eternal life (and what we know it means), we needed to learn how to procreate. This required a carnal world with carnal desires, one that could not exist where God is. This is the world that Adam and Eve gave us by their fall. God, knowing this before hand, already foreordained Jehovah to redeem mankind from the required carnal state of spiritual death for all those who repent and choose spiritual life over carnal life.

I almost can't believe what I'm seeing. You think the fall was a good thing? Do all LDS think this? It's called "the fall" for a reason. It brought death! sin, disease, murder, hatred, etc.. Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken!

You cannot assume that Eve couldn't procreate without knowledge of Good and Evil. God told them to fill the earth in Genesis 1.

The Apostles also did not seem to agree; they held a bad light to these events.

Timothy 2:14

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Were all the curses listed in Genesis 3:16-19 for sinning against God a blessing?

Read 2 Corinthians 11:3-4. Paul does NOT want you to imitate Eve and be "deceived".

Edited February 12, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

The word "return" implies you were there before.

Show me exactly where the Bible says our body and spirit are created at the same time.

I would say "return" implies it came from God, not that we lived with God before we were on Earth. That's called eisogesis. Careful, this is what the Gnostics believed.

[Justice]

Wow. I almost can't believe what I'm seeing. You think the fall was a good thing? Do all LDS thinks this? It's called "the fall" for a reason. It brought death! sin, disease, murder, hatred, etc.. Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken!

Yes, through modern revealtion we can see the purpose for the fall. The fact that the Savior was ordained to Redeem the world from the fall even before GOd created the earth is proof it was part of God's plan.

You cannot assume that Eve couldn't procreate without knowledge of Good and Evil. God told them to fill the earth in Genesis 1.

Yes, God gave them the commandment to multiply while they were in the Garden. So, where are the children they had wehile in the Garden? Why weren't they mentioned or even kicked out of the Garden when they were? It's because, even though commanded, they were unable.

The Apostles also did not seem to agree; they held a bad light to these events.

Timothy 2:14

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

I don't disagree with this. Because of the fall they inherited a world of carnal desires and sin.

Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Same as above.

Next you're gonna tell me that the curses listed in Genesis 3:16-19 for sinning against God were a blessing.

No, the curses came as a consequence of their choice. Read the result of the fall closely. The fact is, if they did not fall you would not be here. That's the blessing part.

Read 2 Corinthians 11:3-4. Paul does NOT want you to imitate Eve and be "deceived".

Of course not. But, the question I ask you is what exactly was Eve deceived or beguiled about?

You see, we have modern revealtion, and a restoration of other scripture that paints a clearer picture on events that aren't so clear in just the Bible. Nephi clarifies some aspects of the fall here:

2 Nephi 2:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Most Christians believe our purpose, or the reason God created us, is so that we might worship and praise Him for eternity. That sounds a bit juvenile to me. I mean, think about it. Here is God Almighty, who has and holds all things in the palm of His hands, creating a lower life form soley for the purpose that they might worship Him.

I don't think so. Someone is lying about that.

I like Nephi's reason better... men are that they might have joy. That sounds more like a God of love to me. That sounds more like the Christ I know in the New Testament. Men have joy when they have children...

Now that's sweet doctrine!

[Justice]

I would say "return" implies it came from God, not that we lived with God before we were on Earth. That's called eisogesis. Careful, this is what the Gnostics believed.

It can't return if was never there. You're bending the word to fit your definition.

We "came" from God in the sense that we are His spiritual offspring. That explains why He would send His Only Begotten Son in the flesh to redeem mankind. He would not allow His Son to be sacrificed for less, nor would it be required of Him. We are His children, and therefore we are His concern.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

I don't know... I think you are 2 steps ahead of me. Before we jump into believing "modern revelation", if we are to stand on Biblical ground we would have to be good Christians and test it to see if it is from God. Did you do that first? I don't know all that this "modern revelation" says, but does it all align with what God's Word says? This is what I should do Before I accept new revelation. Is there a good link you might have to point me to doctrine that I can compare to what God has said in the Bible. Sorry I cannot just accept this so quickly without obeying and searching the scriptures to see if this "modern revelation" is of God, like the Bereans did. I looked up "Book of Mormon", is that where all these doctrines are about pre-existence?

[bytor2112]

I don't know... I think you are 2 steps ahead of me. Before we jump into believing "modern revelation", if we are to stand on Biblical ground we would have to be good Christians and test it to see if it is from God. Did you do that first? I don't know all that this "modern revelation" says, but does it all align with what God's Word says? This is what I should do Before I accept new revelation. Is there a good link you might have to point me to doctrine that I can compare to what God has said in the Bible. Sorry I cannot just accept this so quickly without obeying and searching the scriptures to see if this "modern revelation" is of God, like the Bereans did. I looked up "Book of Mormon", is that where all these doctrines are about pre-existence?

So, why do you accept the Bible as the word of God? He didn't write it. How do you know it truly represents God's will for man or contains ALL of HIS Gospel? Why do you give such authority to the Bible?

(I am not saying that the Bible isn't true by the way, just wondering why you think it is the end all.)

[Justice]

Some of them are there, but not all. Most are from prophets who are living now, or in the recent past.

Are you really interested in reading the Book of Mormon?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe their bodies were perfect in every way. The fall did not grant them the ability to procreate, but the carnal knowledge necessary to learn and understand how.

It's like giving a young child a high performance racing car... until the child learns how to start it and drive it, he "can't" drive it.

If you think of the pre-mortal existence, there were 2 things we needed in order to become like our Father in Heaven.

1. A body

2. The knowledge of good and evil

In the Garden they had a body, but did not become like God until they ate the fruit and "learned" good and evil. As a result of eating the fruit, God said:

The problem with that analogy is that the "young child" had a 'higher performing' car before he gets the lesser 'high performance racing car.' The young child in that metaphor has been using the racing car for some time already. I don't think the mortal body has more features than the immortal perfect body necessarily. The eating of the fruit changed the body, made it a fallen state, corrupted body, changed the very anatomy of the body. We don't know of all the changes, we aren't told, but we know there are some and from that point is when procreation is possible. The knowledge of good and evil is not learning facts about how things work as much as it is becoming responsible for our actions and feeling the weight of that responsibility on ourselves. Its a state of being aware of the implications of our choices. Unfortunately, there are many in our world who procreate without any care as to the consequences and babies are made all the time outside the family. I don't think it is necessary to have a concept of right and wrong to procreate. That just simply does not make sense to me.

And I think it is important to realize that God cannot procreate immortal babies. I think we can only procreate imperfect bodies with an imperfect body. There was never any intention to procreate perfect immortal bodies. I think Adam and Eve both knew that from the beginning. 'Becoming like God' was Satan's deceptive phrase to trick them into eating. It was really the opposite, the eating of the fruit made them less like God but the opportunity to some day be like God.

[Justice]

Did you see the scriptures directly linking the knowledge of good and evil, or eating the fruit, to them realizing their nakedness?

[JohnOF123]

So, why do you accept the Bible as the word of God? He didn't write it. How do you know it truly represents God's will for man or contains ALL of HIS Gospel? Why do you give such authority to the Bible?

(I am not saying that the Bible isn't true by the way, just wondering why you think it is the end all.)

Because it [The Bible] has proven itself to the World (and me) by its impeccable Prophetic record, not to mention every time it mentions a major event which atheist are skeptical of, it ends up being supported by science and archeology and then proven. Even the Smithsonian has used the Bible in assistance for research and discovery.

It's record in prophecy is 100% accuracy, and there are over 1000 specific prophecies made in scripture. I can give you some great examples if interested.

If God could write a book to set it apart from a book that any man could write, it would be one that would tell the future. No man can see the future with 100% accuracy, only God. So if men have a book known to be the Words of God Himself, I have to start there.

I saw the references to passages in the Book of Mormon that you mentioned. Is that where I can find all of LDS doctrine? Thx...

Edited February 12, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

Here is a quick sample video of one popular prophecy about the city of Tyre. God said it would be destroyed, and whenever the Bible says something, it always happens.

YouTube - BIBLICAL PROPHECY ABOUT TYRE-MUST SEE!!!

There are better videos about prophecy, but the one is just nice and short.

A longer but more professional version that speaks of Tyre can be found here YouTube - The Bible: Proof of Prophecy - Part 1 however the first 3 mins is just illustrating that life is short. The rest is prophetic.

But on another note, if you want to see a GREAT video about end times prophecy from an Islamic world perspective, watch the link below. This could be on of the best conferences you've ever seen! It is probably close to an hour long but you will know the future. It has to do with showing you the real relationship between ISLAM, JUDAISM and CHRISTIANITY. The first 8 minutes this guy Walid Shoebat pretty much introduces himself, but the rest is absolutely amazing. Pay close attention and you will be wowed! There is absolutely no propaganda or anti-anything in the video.

Prophecy Islam and the Bible. Walid Shoebat former PLO terrorist

Edited February 12, 2010 by JohnOF123