Hybrid Commandments?

[pam]

Or is it that we don't mind living our lives the way the Church teaches as long as it doesn't conflict with the way WE WANT to live our life?

[Canuck Mormon]

Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. That's what I was taught. Different people have different ideas as to how to keep the Sabbath holy. Personally, I watched the Super bowl and have no guilt over it. I watch football on Sundays sometimes as well with no guilt. Sometimes we don't turn the TV on until after dinner. It's a personal choice. And as far as I can remember, I do not recall any Apostle saying "Do not watch football on Sunday", however I could be wrong.

[hordak]

I totally agree with you there. I agree that not everything is given in a doctrinal statement. I was giving an example. If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel as commandments from the Lord, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

Yes and no. With great power comes great responsibility. Take the commandment Keep the sabbath day holy. This is set in stone. We have been councled a good way to do this is to not work on Sundays or too late on Saturday. If brothers so ands so sees brother hordak is missing church because of work it is no big deal. Brother Hordak may have even got personal revelation that to meet his families financial needs he should do this. Brother so and so isn't affected by these actions. However if an Apostle was found doing this many would use it as an excuse to ignore the council all together.

[applepansy]

After reading where this is going I have to say something. . .I've sat on my hands to keep my mouth shut but its just not working. . .my hands are now numb and I'm talking to myself.

so. . . here I go. . . sorry

We need to remember when teaching in our callings that we are, All of us, at a different level of understanding. Not one of us understands and applies the principles of the gospel in the same way. Our lives, challenges, etc. are different.

Line upon line, Precept on precept.

I learn something new everytime I read the scriptures. I learn something new everytime I read the Ensign (even the issue from 1989 ). Being open to the truth opens the door to the Holy Ghost. I don't know everything and I don't suspect anyone in my Ward or Stake knows everything either. I do however know that our Prophet and Apostles know a lot we need to listen to and their counsel IMHO is commandment. I apply this to talks in General Conference too. . . the speakers are asked to speak by the Prophet. They aren't going to say anything not in keeping with Gospel Doctrine.

Where we get in trouble is when we have received personal revelation regarding our lives and then try to teach it in an environment where we need to be teaching from the scriptures and Conference talks. Such as the RS sister teaching that we shouldn't watch TV on Sunday. If that's where her family is, that's great. But there might be others in a different place who are Honoring the Sabbath in the best way they can.

In our home we do not shop on Sunday, period, end of story. We do without. If fact in an emergency (getting the cow out of the mire) its really a difficult sell to get my husband to agree to spending money on Sunday. (He worked in retail management for 15 years, and had to work a lot of Sundays to support our family.) His feelings are strong on this one issue. But just because that's right for us, doesn't make it right to boycott everything on Sunday. . . My extended family (parents, siblings, etc) occassionaly meet for Sunday dinner at Little America for Mother's Day, Father's Day, Easter, Christmas Brunch, even Thanksgiving on occassion. This bothers my husband. . .he feels we are making people work when they could be with their families. I feel that sometimes, rare occassions, Its more important to be with family, even if it is at a restaurant on a Sunday. And . . .The people who choose to work Sundays and Holidays in restaurants are usually the ones who don't have family close, or need the time and a half pay they get for the holiday. So by eating out on a Sunday for a special occassion you can argue you are helping someone.

There are many ways WE all justify our choices in applying doctrine, both in compliance and non-compliance. The key here is to not Judge. When we judge another person without perfect knowledge we put ourselves in jeopardy. If what the RS sister taught is her understanding that's great and I applaud her efforts, except. . . to teach it in RS made a new member feel badly. We need to be sensitive to others circumstances. To truly live as Christ would have us live means two things. . . treat others as we want to be treated, be slow to judge/quick to repent, not take offence quickly,"Love one another as I have loved you."

Back to watching the super bowl on Sunday. . . In one of our old Wards, when tiny TVs first came out. . . the 1st counselor in the bishopric was watching a football game on sunday (fast sunday), while on the stand. He thought he was hiding it, until someone got up and started with "Bro. Smith, what is the score?" ROFL He turned it off.

Please always take my opinions with a grain of salt.

applepansy

[LittleWyvern]

I think this goes back to the abstract concept vs. implementation issue I was posting about earlier. To illustrate this, I'll explain how this same concept is understood within the realm of computer science, and how this relates to the gospel.

In java, there are things called interfaces. These bits of codes contain abstract methods, which specify what somebody who implements this interface must do in order to say that they implement it. For example, let's look at the Collection interface:

public interface Collection<E> {int size();boolean add(E e);boolean isEmpty();boolean contains(Object o);boolean remove(Object o);void clear();}

Basically what this means is that if you are going to call yourself a Collection, you need to provide a way to see the size of the collection, a way to add an object, a way to see if the collection contains a certain object, a way to remove an object, and a way to clear the collection of objects. Picture this as a concept commandment, such as "keep the sabbath day holy."

However, note that there's no code here! When you write an implementation for a Collection, you can decide how you want to keep track of the size, how to add objects, and so forth. For example, you can keep the objects sorted or not. It really doesn't matter how you implement these methods, so long as you do what is required by the interface. Picture this as deciding how you want to keep the sabbath day holy.

So, we should remember this difference between the abstract concept (a Collection, or keeping the Sabbath Day holy) and the implementation of that concept. When general authorities speak, they usually give the abstract concepts, and explain the methods we must implement (so to speak) in order to meet the requirements of that concept. Unless the exact method we must use to implement the concept is explicitly stated by a general authority, we are free to choose whichever method we feel most comfortable with, so long as it fulfills the requirements of the abstract concept.

[pam]

Hmmm...sorry I can't see that as an analogy though I'm sure it's an awesome one. The computer stuff is just Greek to me.

[applepansy]

Careful with the wording. I would re-word as such:

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel from the Lord as commandments, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

To this I would say: Yes!

When President Hinckley or now President Monson or any of the Twelve counsel us about something, I consider it from the Lord. I my life, I extend that to the Seventy, the Presiding Bishopric, the General RS and General YW presidencies too. . .they are where they are because the Lord called them to be General Authorities. Their suggestions and counsel carry a lot of weight with me.

applepansy

[hordak]

There are many ways WE all justify our choices in applying doctrine, both in compliance and non-compliance. The key here is to not Judge. When we judge another person without perfect knowledge we put ourselves in jeopardy.

applepansy

i concur.

[LittleWyvern]

Hmmm...sorry I can't see that as an analogy though I'm sure it's an awesome one. The computer stuff is just Greek to me.

I explained the analogy slightly different in the "Are we missing the simplicity of the gospel?" thread. On second thought, maybe it wasn't such a good idea to try to used java code to expound on the gospel, but at least I'm forging new frontiers, right?

[pam]

haha yep you are. I guess I just need to learn more java language. hahahaha

[Janice]

After reading where this is going I have to say something. . .I've sat on my hands to keep my mouth shut but its just not working. . .my hands are now numb and I'm talking to myself.

so. . . here I go. . . sorry...

Sorry for what? That was incredible! I agree with every word.

Janice

[Janice]

public interface Collection<E> {int size();boolean add(E e);boolean isEmpty();boolean contains(Object o);boolean remove(Object o);void clear();}

EXACTLY what I was going to say.

[pam]

EXACTLY what I was going to say.

haha exactly what I was thinking.

[LittleWyvern]

EXACTLY what I was going to say.

I tried to explain what it meant in the paragraph below that... I'll try to do a better job next time.

[Janice]

When President Hinckley or now President Monson or any of the Twelve counsel us about something, I consider it from the Lord. I my life, I extend that to the Seventy, the Presiding Bishopric, the General RS and General YW presidencies too. . .they are where they are because the Lord called them to be General Authorities. Their suggestions and counsel carry a lot of weight with me.

applepansy

I'm tracking with you, Apple. And as you know, I agree to a point, but to enough of a point that I don't feel like debating with you on it. For the purposes of this thread, I would ask this:

Can you honestly say that you follow ALL the advice you have heard from these people? Is there ANY that you don't follow to the T? Either by omission or commission? And if there is some advice you don't follow, why?

Here's another example: President Benson preached often about mothers staying home and not going to work. It has been mentioned in recent conferences as well. Next Sunday, look around and do an informal head count of how many mothers in your ward work outside the home. I would say it's 60% in our ward. I am one of them.

Does this mean 60% of the women (and their husbands) in my ward reject the words of the Church Leaders and don't regard these leaders as inspired?

Gosh. I hope not. I don't.

Janice

[Wingnut]

But I also don't think its possible or realistic to adapt everything they say into our lives.

I disagree. I think we can incorporate everything we are commanded to do. To what extent is another thing. There is a lot of black and white, and there is also a lot of gray. For example:

Tithing

The black and white: We can be perfect at tithing. You give 10%, and you're good.

The gray: Do gifts count as "increase?" Should our children pay tithing on money they receive from us that has already been tithed?

Word of Wisdom

The black and white: Don't drink coffee, tea, alcohol. Don't smoke or do drugs.

The gray: What is "early" to bed and "early" to rise? Is caffeine included? How well do we follow the grain and meat portion of the WoW?

Modesty

The black and white: Cover the areas that would be covered by garments, and don't wear tight clothing.

The gray: What defines "tight?" Also, can I wear something really low-cut that shows cleavage, even when it doesn't show my garments? How about nude sunbathing on the beach, because "everyone else is doing it?" Is prom a good exception?

Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy

The black and white: Go to church.

The gray: Pretty much everything else.

The Law of Chastity

The black and white: No sexual relations before marriage, and full fidelity after marriage.

The gray: How far is "too far" before marriage; and after, are there still things that should be avoided within a marriage?

The Law of the Fast

The black and white: We fast (at least monthly) and pay our fast offerings.

The gray: How much should we pay?

Garments

The black and white: We are instructed to wear them day and night, and not to alter them in any way.

The gray: What about while we are exercising?

I could go on. My point is that we can follow all of the commandments we are given. There's no reason to pick and choose them. We are also told that we should not be commanded in all things. That's why there are gray areas. It is in those areas that we should seek the guidance of the Spirit to know how the Lord would like us to personally live the commandments. It is also in those areas that we should be following the spirit of the law, and not the letter.

[Wingnut]

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel as commandments from the Lord, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

Careful with the wording. I would re-word as such:

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel from the Lord as commandments, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

To this I would say: Yes!

I don't think there was a problem with my wording (especially when you look at it in the context of the quote I originally gave, not the tiny tidbit you chose to display here). I think you know exactly what I meant.

With great power comes great responsibility.

Thank you, Spiderman.

(Seriously, though, I do get the point you were making. I just wanted to tease you first.)

[Janice]

My point is that we can follow all of the commandments we are given. There's no reason to pick and choose them.

Wow. That was a lot of impressive work you just went to... to prove a point on which I think we all of already agree.

I feel, however, like you missed my point entirely. I was never talking about picking and choosing commandments. I was talking about picking and choosing the barrage of suggestions we are given around those commandments.

Getting back to the whole point of why I started this thread:

I think that sometimes we take commandments, merge them with suggestions and traditions, and then come up with our own quasi-commandments, which work great for us .... but then we sometimes go to far when we use them to judge other people.

Janice

[Elgama]

I think there is a world of difference between not following the church leaders because you are imperfect and not managing it yet, and saying actually I am not going to do that because I don't want to or because och maybe the church leader is wrong.

Mosiah 5:2 2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

For example often when you are catching up with assignments, paperwork, housework etc on the Sabbath the sin was actually commited earlier in the week, watching a game after making decision could be a moment of weakness, but to say I am not going to obey the prophet because its a cultural thing, is an intention to do evil, both in not following the prophet and not obeying the Sabbath

-Charley

[Guest tomk]

"And God said, let there be Dish DVR and / or VHS recording devices, and it was so."

Tape it and watch it for Family Home Evening. Use the plays to teach your children about the importance of teamwork and wholesome physical activity.

Cheers!

[Wingnut]

"And God said, let there be Dish DVR and / or VHS recording devices, and it was so."

Tape it and watch it for Family Home Evening. Use the plays to teach your children about the importance of teamwork and wholesome physical activity.

Cheers!

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Great one!

[applepansy]

I'm tracking with you, Apple. And as you know, I agree to a point, but to enough of a point that I don't feel like debating with you on it. For the purposes of this thread, I would ask this:

Can you honestly say that you follow ALL the advice you have heard from these people? Is there ANY that you don't follow to the T? Either by omission or commission? And if there is some advice you don't follow, why?

Here's another example: President Benson preached often about mothers staying home and not going to work. It has been mentioned in recent conferences as well. Next Sunday, look around and do an informal head count of how many mothers in your ward work outside the home. I would say it's 60% in our ward. I am one of them.

Does this mean 60% of the women (and their husbands) in my ward reject the words of the Church Leaders and don't regard these leaders as inspired?

Gosh. I hope not. I don't.

Janice

I can honestly say NO, I'm NOT perfect!!! But I'm working on it. I figure that I might be 50% perfect about the time we get to the Mercy Seat (judgement day).

Yes President Benson preached about mothers staying home and I didn't. I worked. Looking back. . . I wish with all my heart I had been faithful enough to head his counsel. Because I didn't my children didn't get what they needed. And that is my fault. President Hinckley, President Monson and others have spoken about mothers working outside the home too. Their counsel has been (I'm not sure who exactly said it - its been close to 20 years ago) for Fathers to do all they can to ensure their wives can stay home with their children, but if Mom has to work to help supoort the family dont' beat yourself up over it. I'm paraphrasing. The whole issue of mothers working is another area where I prefer to not judge. I'm not in those households and I don't have a perfect knowledge. Having worked while trying to raise small children, I can empathize with mothers who do have to work. I try my hardest to support the parents who need two incomes. . .in our world today children need more than just faithful parents, they need other faithful examples.

I remember the wording of the counsel given to Priesthood holders very clearly because the day after that conference my father-in-law told me I was wrong to work, when I picked the kids up after work. He was adament about it being my fault and very judgemental. I told him then and showed him (later in the Ensign) that what was said was that "Priesthood holders needed" to make sure their wives could stay home and I told my FIL that if he had a problem with how we were supporting our family, then he should talk to HIS son! (I'm pretty fiesty sometimes.) I talked with my husband about this incident. . .my FIL never brought up the subject with my husband.

In my case, I know in my heart I've repented of not heeding Pres. Benson's counsel. If I could do it over I would not work, regardless of the sacrifices. I didn't have the faith to be obedient. However, I know I will be forgiven. But the consequences of my choice are still evident and will not be easily remedied. All I can do now is work to help my children with their testimonies from this point on.

This experience taught me a very important lesson. . .Pay attention to the counsel and suggestions of the Prophet, Apostles and General Authorities. Last April Conference when we were told to get our Food Storage NOW. I worked very hard all summer/fall to do that. I'm still working on it, and we're being blessed for our obedience. My husband hasn't lost his job yet.

In regard to your question "Does this mean 60% of the women (and their husbands) in my ward reject the words of the Church Leaders and don't regard these leaders as inspired?" Heck NO! What it means is that we live in a difficult world and we all have different levels of faith, and we shouldn't judge each other about who's more obedient and who isn't.

I try. . . all we can do is try to do our very best and to help those around us do their very best. More than our best is not required.

applepansy

P.S. Several years ago I added "help me have faith to be obedient in all things." Since then amazing things have happened and I have felt the hand of the Lord in my life on a daily basis. The stronger my faith grows the more amazing life becomes.

Edited February 3, 2009 by applepansy
addition

[applepansy]

We are all a "work in progress." Hopefully we're letting Christ be the sculpture.

I ammend my early projection. . . I'm only going to make it to 30% perfect. . . sigh

Humbly working on my inperfections,

applepansy

[Janice]

In regard to your question "Does this mean 60% of the women (and their husbands) in my ward reject the words of the Church Leaders and don't regard these leaders as inspired?" Heck NO! What it means is that we live in a difficult world and we all have different levels of faith, and we shouldn't judge each other about who's more obedient and who isn't.

I think we see eye to eye on this. :)

[Janice]

If President Hinckley takes all suggestions and counsel as commandments from the Lord, wouldn't that be a good example for us to follow?

All suggestion and counsel... from who? From the Prophet? The 12? The 70? The General Relief Society? Area Authority? Stake President? Bishop? RS President? Visiting teachers?

We get lots of suggestion and counsel from lots of people. Who's is to be regarded as Gospel / Doctrine, and who's is to be taken as really, really good advice?

If it comes direct from the Lord to me, there is no question.

Janice