Through HIM all things were made.

[FunkyTown]

I found a useful illustration on wikipedia...(I know, how original of me)

"God is seen like a person tending an aquarium which represents the entire universe. Too large to fit inside the aquarium, a man can slide his hand inside the aquarium. The fish will see a hand in one place in the water. The man can also put his face into the water, and the fish will see a face in an entirely different place. The fish will think the hand and the face are two entirely different beings, which look nothing like each other. The fish may also become dimly aware that outside the aquarium a larger being tends to their needs, spreading food in the water regularly. Thus intelligent fish would perceive three different beings from their perspective – even though in fact these three manifestations come from one, single being beyond their comprehension."

From the Trinity entry on Wikipedia

I understand what you're saying and trying hard not to be contrary... But the hand can not ask why the head has forsaken it, nor can it teach the fish how to be a hand(Or be the adopted hands of the head). The hand is a mere extension of the will of the head. It doesn't have a will of its own, nor does it beg the head not to touch something hot but that "Nevertheless, the Head and not the Hand's will be done."

[LittleNipper]

I understand what you're saying and trying hard not to be contrary... But the hand can not ask why the head has forsaken it, nor can it teach the fish how to be a hand(Or be the adopted hands of the head). The hand is a mere extension of the will of the head. It doesn't have a will of its own, nor does it beg the head not to touch something hot but that "Nevertheless, the Head and not the Hand's will be done."

Oddly enough, does not the scripture say, "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off..." and also "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" Still, GOD is GOD and a human playing with his fish isn't exactly the same thing, I must admit...

[Dymmesdale]

I understand what you're saying and trying hard not to be contrary... But the hand can not ask why the head has forsaken it, nor can it teach the fish how to be a hand(Or be the adopted hands of the head). The hand is a mere extension of the will of the head. It doesn't have a will of its own, nor does it beg the head not to touch something hot but that "Nevertheless, the Head and not the Hand's will be done."

I just thought that there might be someone who found that illustration helpful. I will be the first to admit that it not anywhere near a perfect analogy for the Trinity. In fact, I do not believe that a perfect illustration of the Trinity exists. It's just too much for our minds to handle. It's like the fish trying to understand what makes the tender of the aquarium tick. Not going to happen.

[Traveler]

You must already realize that the very same Jewish experts in ancient Hebrew very often do not see JESUS CHRIST as their MESSIAH. So much for human understanding of the DIVINE... Try reading I Corinthians Chapter15 with regards the second Adam.

I am glad that you understand the fally of human understanding of the DIVINE and creating the Trinity without any divine authority or commandment.

You should also know that the Hebrew for Adam is also translated as man. It is sorrow to me that you do not recognize from 1Cor 15 that Jesus was a different kind of man from Adam.

The Traveler

[LittleNipper]

I am glad that you understand the fally of human understanding of the DIVINE and creating the Trinity without any divine authority or commandment.

You should also know that the Hebrew for Adam is also translated as man. It is sorrow to me that you do not recognize from 1Cor 15 that Jesus was a different kind of man from Adam.

The Traveler

Well, I do recognize the JESUS is all man and GOD. That does in fact make HIM very different from Adam. I also recognize that the Bible clearly says that there is but ONE GOD. So clearly if JESUS is GOD and the FATHER is GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD, those three beings are of one essence and ONE GOD.

Edited February 13, 2009 by LittleNipper

[FunkyTown]

Well, I do recognize the JESUS is all man and GOD. That does in fact make HIM very different from Adam. I also recognize that the Bible clearly says that there is but ONE GOD. So clearly if JESUS is GOD and the FATHER is GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD, htose three beings are of one essence and ONE GOD.

This makes sense. I like this description of the Trinity far better than previous ones. It's based upon Scripture.

[Elgama]

Why Charley? The Bible tell us that God cannot sin and we can see there are many things that God cannot do. If it's against Gpd's nature why would u see that as a problem? It's not a limitation it just becomes and aburdity.

I still believe God can do all things but if He were to go against his nature as God then He will cease to be God. Its based on a scripture in Alma.

Rest is my own interpretation: I believe in agency - whilst Satan is in this world he gets a lot of blame for sinning, but each and everyone of us is capable of sinning without him, whether or not we do is our personal choice... its not Satan's choice to make. We cannot sit on the fence we are either on God's side or against him, we cannot make wrong choices and remain unrepentant and be a follower of Christ.

The same is for God - He is our God and Perfect because of the choices he makes, I do not believe God is perfect because He is forced to be I believe personally He is much more powerful than that, He is perfect, good, just etc because He chooses Good over Evil constantly. Like I could drink tea and coffee, if I chose I am perfectly capable of making a cuppa, but because its wrong I do not do it. If I do do it and do not repent I am no follower of Christ,

As the saying going goes its only temptation until you give into it then it ceases to be temptation, I am sorry i just do not believe God is all powerful through force, He is all powerful because He is by nature Good.

-Charley

[LittleNipper]

I still believe God can do all things but if He were to go against his nature as God then He will cease to be God. Its based on a scripture in Alma.

Rest is my own interpretation: I believe in agency - whilst Satan is in this world he gets a lot of blame for sinning, but each and everyone of us is capable of sinning without him, whether or not we do is our personal choice... its not Satan's choice to make. We cannot sit on the fence we are either on God's side or against him, we cannot make wrong choices and remain unrepentant and be a follower of Christ.

The same is for God - He is our God and Perfect because of the choices he makes, I do not believe God is perfect because He is forced to be I believe personally He is much more powerful than that, He is perfect, good, just etc because He chooses Good over Evil constantly. Like I could drink tea and coffee, if I chose I am perfectly capable of making a cuppa, but because its wrong I do not do it. If I do do it and do not repent I am no follower of Christ,

As the saying going goes its only temptation until you give into it then it ceases to be temptation, I am sorry i just do not believe God is all powerful through force, He is all powerful because He is by nature Good.

-Charley

Charley,

JESUS said that it isn't what goes in the defiles a man, it is what comes out. Satan is the author of deceit. Before his fall there was none. GOD is ALMIGHY because HE IS and not because of what we may say HE isn't.

[Elgama]

Charley,

JESUS said that it isn't what goes in the defiles a man, it is what comes out. Satan is the author of deceit. Before his fall there was none. GOD is ALMIGHY because HE IS and not because of what we may say HE isn't.

I'm a Latter Day Saint - right now through prayer, mediation, study etc I am very secure where my beliefs are on this matter, I am not saying they won't change as I grow and understand more..... but right now I know I am right with God on the matter.

I believe God is Good not because of force but because He has chosen Good from Evil............ everything about Him is Good - but not because he is incapable of Evil because he doesn't do it. Otherwise ourselves and Satan have a power He doesn't have,

Just like Satan does not force me to make wrong decisions, and God does not force me to make right ones. its my decision who I am and who I become. He is my Heavenly Father and shows the way. In this I am talking about Heavenly Father rather than Jesus

We had agency before the fall, and so did Adam and Eve because their decision to partake of the fruit came BEFORE the fall.

-Charley

[LittleNipper]

I'm a Latter Day Saint - right now through prayer, mediation, study etc I am very secure where my beliefs are on this matter, I am not saying they won't change as I grow and understand more..... but right now I know I am right with God on the matter.

I believe God is Good not because of force but because He has chosen Good from Evil............ everything about Him is Good - but not because he is incapable of Evil because he doesn't do it. Otherwise ourselves and Satan have a power He doesn't have,

Just like Satan does not force me to make wrong decisions, and God does not force me to make right ones. its my decision who I am and who I become. He is my Heavenly Father and shows the way. In this I am talking about Heavenly Father rather than Jesus

We had agency before the fall, and so did Adam and Eve because their decision to partake of the fruit came BEFORE the fall.

-Charley

It would seem biblically that evil has no power (at least nothing of an eternal value). So if evil has no power --- then lacking the capacity to be evil is no loss. But perfection is a strength that evil cannot have.

[Dr T]

I still believe God can do all things but if He were to go against his nature as God then He will cease to be God.

I'd agree Gama

Rest is my own interpretation: I believe in agency - whilst Satan is in this world he gets a lot of blame for sinning, but each and everyone of us is capable of sinning without him, whether or not we do is our personal choice... its not Satan's choice to make. We cannot sit on the fence we are either on God's side or against him, we cannot make wrong choices and remain unrepentant and be a follower of Christ.

Agreed again :)

The same is for God - He is our God and Perfect because of the choices he makes, I do not believe God is perfect because He is forced to be I believe personally He is much more powerful than that, He is perfect, good, just etc because He chooses Good over Evil constantly.

We part in our beliefs here. I'd say that Gos is perfect because it is in his nature and who he IS-not "does."

...I am sorry i just do not believe God is all powerful through force, He is all powerful because He is by nature Good.

exactly my point. It is in his nature and therefore must be good and honest and not sin, etc. That is what I've been trying to say :) Thank u for your thoughts on this