I have some questions about Joseph Smith

[pam]

I'll go with you Elphie...I would love to go to each of those places.

[Elphaba]

There's pretty decent evidence that Governor Ford explicitly green-lit the murder beforehand. We have at least one person claiming Ford promised not to intervene until the deed was done,

There is no evidence, decent or otherwise, that Ford agreed to let Joseph and Hyrum be murdered beforehand. There is an affidavit that makes these claims, but it does not match the events of the time, and according to Bushman:

Bushman: The affidavit, sworn to in Utah in 1855, was far from proof that Ford was complicit in the assassinations, but attests to the violent proposals in the air.

In my opinion, it is understandable someone would write such an affidavit in an effort to further vilify Ford, given the still-heightened rage and resentment for Joseph’s and Hyrum’s cold-blooded murders.

But Ford is much-maligned in the whole event, and I believe this "affidavit" was an effort to provide further evidence of his blame in Joseph's and Hyrum's murders. He doesn't deserve that accusation.

Justaguy: and Ford's action in disbanding the Warsaw militia there in Carthage (as opposed to marching them back to Warsaw and then having them disband) was incredibly naive.

I agree it was naïve, and will go further and say he was oblivious and idealistic. He knew everything was at the tipping point; yet, he still believed people would be honorable and obey his commands.

For example, Bushman writes that prior to the murders:

Bushman: Ford did not want a repeat of the expulsion that had brought so much condemnation on Missouri. “I was determined, if possible,” he wrote afterwards, “that the forms of law should not be made the capshaw of a mob, to seduce these people to quiet surrender, as the convenient victims of popular fury.”

On the other hand, outrage in Hancock County was fast getting out of control. Ford had to speak forcefully to the Mormons and above all bring Joseph to justice or the populace would seize control. Ford dared not even call in the county militias, knowing they would turn into a mob and take vengeance on the Saints. A large armed force assembled from three counties had turned Carthage into an armed camp as bristling as Nauvoo.

These militants did not want a peaceful settlement. . . . Ford rather bravely thrust himself into the center of events in the futile belief he might negotiate a settlement.

Ford is sometimes still vilified by Mormons who believe he did not protect Joseph and Hyrum as he should have, and I think this is unerstandable.

But he was trying, in his own mind, the best he could to keep all parties from violence, including traveling to warn the Mormons that violence was eminent, but not to respond in kind, or the mobs would kill them. (The Mormons took his advice and did not retaliate.)

I think a very brief explanation of Ford's actions is that the combination of idealism, (including believing his men from the official militia would obey him,) fear, exhaustion, and an inability to see the entire entire picture, gives us insight into some of his decisions, though obviously not all.

But his actions were not due to a lack of sympathy for Joseph, or a desire to see the Mormons dead at the hands of mobs. He really thought he was doing everything he could to prevent these.

Elphaba

Edited February 18, 2009 by Elphaba

[Hemidakota]

Indeed! Faith. Purpose.

I will be visiting the Carthage Jail again this summer, and will see the Liberty Jail for the first time ever in the same trip. Also will see Winter Quarters for the first time. :D

HiJolly

Lucky dog...something I was meaning to do over two years ago. With Liberty Jail, hopefully you are not over 5-10 due to the ceiling height. May bump your head.

Have you been to Adam-ondi-Ahman?

[Hemidakota]

Joseph is 3rd on my list to meet after Christ then Pam then Joseph :):)

( Thought I would share also :):))

Peace,

Ceeboo

First in order is to visit our Heavenly Parents, especially Heavenly Mother, I have some tears to shed before her as I hug her. Next comes the Savior and the good friend, the Holy Ghost. If Joseph Smith is not busy, then spend a moment with him giving him my deepest gratitude and love. Then perhaps, if permitted, to visit an old friend, Lucifer.

[Elphaba]

Then perhaps, if permitted, to visit an old friend, Lucifer.

What is up with that?

Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

There is no evidence, decent or otherwise, that Ford agreed to let Joseph and Hyrum be murdered beforehand. There is an affidavit that makes these claims, but it does not match the events of the time, and according to Bushman:

Elphaba, I don't have Bushman before me at the moment (I presume you're citing RSR). Is this the statement of the anti-Mormon that he had remarked that Smith would have to die and that the government would likely intervene, and Ford told him something along the lines of "not until you are done"? Or is it Dan Jones' recollection of Ford's behavior in Nauvoo?

and will go further and say he was oblivious and idealistic. He knew everything was at the tipping point; yet, he still believed people would be honorable and obey his commands.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I find his later writings to be generally self-serving.

Thomas Ford had grown up in a culture where vigilantism was relatively commonplace. Talk of "nullification" had swamped the nation not too long before; and mob actions and lynchings were by our standards common nationwide. Ford knew human nature--he was a longtime lawyer and a former justice on the state supreme court.

Moreover, Ford knew what had happened in Missouri. He unilaterally overturned the (favorable to Smith) verdict of a Nauvoo court and demanded Smith present himself in Carthage for a new "fair" trial, but when the biased nature of the Carthage proceedings became readily apparent he suddenly decided he couldn't meddle in judicial affairs. He knew the sympathies of the local militias, and he knew the threats that were being made. Knowing this, he had Smith marched through town in the middle of an angry and armed mob. When Smith came out of that ordeal alive, Ford deliberately removed the only militia group in Carthage that might have stood to Smith's defense (the McDonough County militia) and high-tailed it out of town (which he had promised Smith he wouldn't do without taking Smith with him).

There's an old saying in tort law: res ipsa loquitur, roughly translated as "the thing speaks for itself". I believe that applies here. Nobody with Ford's savvy and experience could be so stupid as Ford later claimed to be.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[J-Pip]

He had the choice that day prior to going to Liberty Jail. He choosed the latter. Reminds me of the Lord in the Garden, seeking another path but brought back to reality.

Why wait for the next life...ask to talk to him now. :)

Regardless what one thinks of the man, he's just that a man, a sinful creature like you and I that needs Chirst's atonement just as much as you and I.

Be careful when you compare Jesus to a man, IMO it should only be done to show how perfect he is compared to the rest of us.

Do you think Jesus approved of Joseph's actions at the Jail? I'm not calling him a murderer, I think he killed in self defense, but what were Jesus' teachings? Turn the other cheek? None of Jesus' apostles fought back when their time came. Peter willingly returned after having been freed by some of the believers, to be hung on a cross upside down. Paul willingly allowed himself to be killed, James didn't try to fight his way off the roof top or try to drag anybody down with him when he was thrown off the temple in Jerusalem.

But Joseph shot 3-4 people killing 2.....

One of these things is not like the others....

Read Foxes book of Martyrs or Jesus Freaks Martyrs, they're full of stories of people who believed and followed Jesus. They didn't fear death, they saw it as a way home, they were honored to die for Christ because they knew death could not hold them and they had greater things waiting for them.

[Just_A_Guy]

I concur that it's important to draw distinctions between Smith and Jesus Christ.

But FWIW, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and (per Josephus) James were all killed under the aegis of law. Resistance would have equaled sedition.

(As for James, accounts don't even agree as to the exact manner of his death; if he did indeed die as a result of a mob of Pharisees, how do we know that he didn't resist with whatever resources were available to him? And wouldn't any account making such a claim be suspect as religious propaganda, anyways?)

There was nothing even ostensibly legal about the mode of Smith's death, and no element of sedition in his choice to resist.

[Just_A_Guy]

They didn't fear death, they saw it as a way home, they were honored to die for Christ because they knew death could not hold them and they had greater things waiting for them.

Point taken, but let us remember "moderation in all things". I believe it was Talmage in Articles of Faith who pointed out that some of the early "martyrs" were so obsessed with this wish that they deliberately made themselves as obnoxious as possible, hoping that someone would get sufficiently angry to kill them.

[Dr T]

Moderation in all things except moderation

[J-Pip]

There was nothing even ostensibly legal about the mode of Smith's death, and no element of sedition in his choice to resist.

I agree, I find no fault in him for fighting back, he was well within his rights to do so as far as the law is concerned. But he chose another path than Christ's followers.

I believe it was Talmage in Articles of Faith who pointed out that some of the early "martyrs" were so obsessed with this wish that they deliberately made themselves as obnoxious as possible, hoping that someone would get sufficiently angry to kill them.

I havn't read that book in a long time, but I'm sure there were some that professed to be Christians and did just that. There were some crazy Christians back then, thankfully too, we got Paul's letters because of them.

[jolee65]

You are so off base about us compairing JS to Jesus Christ , we respect JS for the trouble he went through for us, he could have said no way im fine i dont feel the need to go out there with a unknown book and try to convince the world of its significance.

Could you?? Lets say its another book not the BoM, but you have visits, was given instructions could you?? let me answer for myself, no I couldnt.

I believe im special but not like that, and im not ashamed to say it.

The load you would have to carry, he was choosen as a prophet like moses, noah, but because hes of a time you can relate with more so then BC or AD , its a load and we shouldnt feel love or respect for a man we believe brought us the word of God.

Edited February 19, 2009 by jolee65

[jolee65]

We wont see you in church Sunday then. LOL

[Just_A_Guy]

But he chose another path than Christ's followers.

Uh, I think you've missed the point.

Had Smith been given a trial (even a sham one) and received a death sentence, which he then sought to avoid by use of physical force, I'd agree with you.

But his was a wholly different set of circumstances than those of the early Christians whose cases you cite. Smith's forcible resistance to his killers did not thrust him or his followers in a situation of open rebellion against the State. Peter's, Paul's, or James' resistance would have.

By the way, was Moses a follower of Christ? Because he killed a man when his own life wasn't even in danger.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Palerider]

You just a gov't turn its back on a group of people and did nothing while several hundred were killed in cold blood, like Hauns Mill etc....and you concerned because he shot a gun 2-3 times where bullets were flying all around that room.....I think a Paint Ball gun could cause more damage than the gun he had in the jail.

[john doe]

But Joseph shot 3-4 people killing 2.....

Are you sure of this? I knew he shot a couple shots, but I don't believe anyone died from those shots.

[Maxel]

Joseph Smith wasn't fighting only for himself, either. There were three other men that were put in danger because of the mobs, who also did not deserve to die. I find no fault in a Christian when he fights to save the life of a beloved friend.

Also, I don't know of any who died immediately because of Joseph's retaliation. I know of two stories of men who died due to unnatural infections they received from the bullets from Joseph's gun, but such stories invariably have the dying man admitting Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the horrendous nature of their punishment. The two accounts I am thinking of can be found in Parley P. Pratt's autobiography, and are as likely fiction as reality (as far as my knowledge of them go).

[J-Pip]

Jolee65;

If it were truly God's work, he'd of found someone else, had Joseph said no. But since He is God, He knew Joseph wouldn't right? (assuming that it IS God's work) SO Joseph was only a tool in the hands of God like any of the other prophets. (Assuming that it is God's work) The Work Christ did, no one else could have done.

The opinion many LDS have of him seems to be the same he had of himself:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

Just-a-guy:

I understand your point, Joseph was unjustly murdered by a mob. But still, what were Christ's teachings? Love your enemies, turn the other cheek.... yes most of the ealy Christians martyrs were tried and put to death by a government. But not all, James Jesus' brother was killed by a mob, thrown off the temple, but that didn't kill him. The mob then was about to stone him when he began to pray for his attackers. Here is the difference and lack of love by Joseph Smith. James prayed for his attackers, not that they'd die, not that he'd be rescued, but for their forgiveness. The love he showed for them impressed them enough that they stopped stoning him, but a man hit him in the head with a stick. Regardless of what the situation was, Joseph did not portray any Christlike attributes at the time of his death.

Pale Rider: (He must've agreed with me on this point, because he later deleted his comment about Moses killing an Egyptian....)

Moses? Really? well, I guess lucky for Moses he did that before Christ and the Law, and since it was Moses, i'm sure he knows who to give thanks to for the forgiveness of his sins. I'll get back to you on the "hundreds" that were killed. If you have any resources for me to look into, i'd gladly appreciate them. But Hauns Mill, what I always knew to be the worst attack was 19 killed. But there's a story behind the attack.

I don't mean to belittle the people who were killed, so please don't take it that way. But there's much more to the story than that Joseph died as a martyr as his hymn claims and that the early saints were persecuted for no reason. Look at both sides of the story and try to find out why it happened.

Edited February 20, 2009 by J-Pip

[J-Pip]

Joseph Smith wasn't fighting only for himself, either. There were three other men that were put in danger because of the mobs, who also did not deserve to die. I find no fault in a Christian when he fights to save the life of a beloved friend.

Also, I don't know of any who died immediately because of Joseph's retaliation. I know of two stories of men who died due to unnatural infections they received from the bullets from Joseph's gun, but such stories invariably have the dying man admitting Joseph Smith was a prophet because of the horrendous nature of their punishment. The two accounts I am thinking of can be found in Parley P. Pratt's autobiography, and are as likely fiction as reality (as far as my knowledge of them go).

Again it was John Taylor who was present that stated two had died from their wounds. An account given from the other side (the mob) stated that the pistol fired three times and misfired three times but the three shots struck. And if they died as a result of infection from his shots, it's the same thing.....

[Elphaba]

I don't mean to belittle the people who were killed, so please don't take it that way.

Of course you do.

Context always needs to be applied, especially to these kinds of histories that are controversial, and especially, so blood thirsty and heartbreaking. And yes, there are guilty parties on both sides, but so what?

Nothing justifies cold-blooded murder.

You think you're upstaging everyone with perspective and context, but you're not. You are taking issues of context, and manipulating them into something ridiculous.

I am an ex-Mormon, and even I can see that.

Elphaba

[Maxel]

I don't mean to belittle the people who were killed, so please don't take it that way. But there's much more to the story than that Joseph died as a martyr as his hymn claims and that the early saints were persecuted for no reason. Look at both sides of the story and try to find out why it happened.

The definition of a martyr is someone who dies for his or her belief willingly. (dictionary.com's literal definition is this: a martyr is 'a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.') So, Joseph Smith is most definitely a martyr. Whether one believes his was an example of Christian martyrdom is up for debate- yet he was a martyr nonetheless.

Again it was John Taylor who was present that stated two had died from their wounds. An account given from the other side (the mob) stated that the pistol fired three times and misfired three times but the three shots struck. And if they died as a result of infection from his shots, it's the same thing.....

I agree, it's quite the same thing. However, the stories involved both men dying because of their flesh rotting away, starting from the point where the bullet from Joseph's gun grazed their flesh. The first died of rotting internal organs, and one of his final confessions was that Joseph was a true prophet of God. The second died when a maggot (that was among others that had been laid in this man's rotting flesh) ate through his jugular vein. He too admitted that Joseph was a prophet before he died. The very grotesque and horribly unique nature of the disease happening in two men at the same incident, and getting the infection from minor wounds, is extremely incredulous and would require an act of God to explain.

If you are willing to agree that both these accounts are factual, I will by no means stop you, as both offer overwhelming evidence for the real issue at hand- was Joseph Smith a prophet of God. However, as I stated before, I read them in an autobiography of a faithful Latter-day Saint apostle who much admired Joseph Smith, so I do not accept them as bona fide fact based solely on that.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Maxel

[J-Pip]

The definition of a martyr is someone who dies for his or her belief willingly. (dictionary.com's literal definition is this: a martyr is 'a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.') So, Joseph Smith is most definitely a martyr. Whether one believes his was an example of Christian martyrdom is up for debate- yet he was a martyr nonetheless.

Apparently we have a difference of opinion of what willingly means. I guess after he put up a fight he "willingly" jumped out the window. I don't believe he was a martyr by the definition you gave.

[jolee65]

Do you believe the war in heaven continues here on earth???

Ive never read a story of any martyr that just layed down and die without fighting for what they believed in, you might but im not.

Theres a big war going on right now and its getting worse by the day, satan is gathering all he can, and going to church and that is what even church you belong to and stay close to the spirit because that is going to keep you on your path. stop preaching.

[HiJolly]

Can I come with? Pale is supposed to take me Carthage, but he keeps avoiding the issue!

Seriously, I want to go there sometime in my lifetime, but have to admit, that would be a very difficult place to see, and not feel, I don't know, distraught, I think.

Winter Quarters would be fascinating.

Let me know what time I can expect you to pick me up!

Elphaba

Sounds like way fun! I'd love to have you come with my wife & I, but my wife isn't coming.... I'll be hanging with about 600 other folks involved with the Tab Choir. I'd take my wife, but it was to cost $3,500 for her to go, and we have other places to put the money.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Lucky dog...something I was meaning to do over two years ago. With Liberty Jail, hopefully you are not over 5-10 due to the ceiling height. May bump your head.

Have you been to Adam-ondi-Ahman?

I'm 6'2'' so I'll have to crouch. Good enough, Joseph had to crouch as well.

AoA? Never been. Maybe it'll happen this summer as well... I'm not sure.

HiJolly