So what is wrong with the Nicene Creed?

[LittleNipper]

What is the POINT of your post?

It seems apparent to me that you understand we do not have a Trinitarian view of the Godhead.

You understand our point of view but you reject it. You believe the Godhead is ONE SUBSTANCE. Three beings but ONE God, literally.

We do not believe that. We believe they are and always have been three seperate, distinct beings, not ONE substance, but ONE in purpose.

Can you be a little more specific in what you are trying to accomplish here? Let's not keep going in circles, please.

Tom

Well Tom,

I would submit to you that more than simply Mormons read these posts. I'm a prime example. This is called the Christian Beliefs Board and so I would assume that there are others like myself reading these threads.

(I might as you the very same question.)

They like myself wish to more fully understand what Mormons actually do base their doctrine and beliefs on and why.

There may also be those among the crowd who really do not totally disregard Trinitarian doctrine as false. They maybe sitting on the fence, hopefully asking GOD to provide some wisdom in this matter...

Circles have a way of wearing a track that sometimes get through the thickest finish and begin to change the underlying foundation underneath.

I believe GOD is GOD and HE has always been GOD. Do you believe that?

I believe I have always been a created being and because of Adam's sin I have always been a sinner. Do you accept that?

The problem that I see is that the Bible clearly states that there is but ONE GOD. I know that the FATHER is GOD, that the SON is GOD and that the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD. So understandably one must conclude that THEY are GOD and not gods.

I see three seperate persons united as one GOD. Seperate and equal, but having what appears different roles.

What can you explain without Joseph Smith. I know that I can explain nothing without GOD's WORD, and that is why I as a christian rely on it seemingly to the disappointment of some...

[gabelpa]

I believe I have always been a created being and because of Adam's sin I have always been a sinner. Do you accept that?

As LDS, no, I do not accept that. We are as eternal as God, having always existed, but becoming adopted, and quickened by our Father in Heaven to become his Spirit children before this Universe was even created.

Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. <- not me, Book of Mormon. Give it a read sometime, looking for truth, not things that you don't want to believe. I believe that Adam and Eve needed to choose to sin, and become separated from God so that we could come to this Earth.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. <- Second article of Faith of the LDS Church. We are here, because Adam and Eve made a choice. We also make a choice, and come to this Earth in a perfect state. All men sin and transgress, all except for Jesus, who never transgressed, and never sinned. Thus, he remained perfect, and able to pay the price for our sins, and act as a mediator between us and Heavenly Father, and our Advocate. Jesus is Mercy, Heavenly Father is Justice.

[Maxel]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

A few points of confusion/discrepancy for me:

'I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth'

I do not subscribe to the doctrine of ex nihilo, or the doctrine that God made everything out of nothing. I believe God organized preexisting matter into the Earth. I have no qualms with the term 'Maker', but knowing a little bit about the Creeds (and I speak of the Nicene and later creeds when I say 'Creeds'), I know the doctrine of ex nihilo is supported by them.

'And in one Lord Jesus Christ... God of God, Light of Light, very God of God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father...'

I don't believe Christ is of one substance with the Father. I believe the two are separate beings. I also am hesitant about accepting the words 'God of God, Light of Light, very God of God'- what do they mean? I'm sure someone can explain those phrases, but right now they are no more than philosophical mumbo jumbo to me. I could guess at a meaning, but I wouldn't want to assume the Nicene Creed says something it actually doesn't.

'And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son...'

I don't believe the Holy Ghost is Lord and Giver of Life, as I understand the term. I believe the Holy Ghost's role is to testify of truth and carry revelation and the word of God to the hearts of man. If one understands 'Life' as the word of God, then yes I guess he is the Giver of Life; however I understand 'Life' as meaning the physical forces that allow us to eat, breathe, live, repent, etc.- forces I believe work under the influence and direction of the Light of Christ, which emanates from Christ Himself and not the Holy Ghost.

'And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.'

I fully agree with this part. I find it ironic that many Protestants who accept this creed and its intellectual progeny do not believe in an apostolic Church, and catholic only in the sense that all believers are the body of Christ with no need for uniformity of practice, doctrine, etc. I have noted your belief about the 'apostolic' concept, but I personally reject the idea that God would found his Church in one manner, then let it continue to grow in another manner- I see it as planting a carrot but expecting a pear to grow from it. I fear the refusal to believe in apostolic succession comes from the belief that Christ's church could still be found on Earth after the general time of the New Testament (with recorded apostles)- that is, the lack of belief in living apostles arises from tradition instead of revealed scripture.

My biggest problem with the Nicene Creed itself is that it cements the tradition that God's word is to be interpreted by the philosophical lens of men in councils, and not the Biblical example of prophets, seers, and revelators. My big problems with the theology of the early Christian Creeds mainly begins with the Athanasian Creed, and lies largely in the fact that many accept the Creeds as truth on par with the Bible

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

I do not disagree with you here. In fact, I most decidedly agree with you- the Creeds are a guide, not scripture themselves. As all guides, they can be wrong. There are verses in the Bible that lend credence to the ideas found in the Nicene and other Creeds. However, I adamantly reject the idea that the Trinity and other doctrines set forth in the creeds are the only interpretation supported by scripture. When I read the creeds, I see the language and understanding of men, not God. I see the representatives of Athens, not Jerusalem.

Authoritative, prophetic interpretation of scripture is just as important as having authoritative, prophetic scripture itself. Otherwise, sundry heresies and blasphemies could draw 'support' from scripture.

Also- where did you find the information you posted in post # 10? Drawing from outside sources is fine, but you need to cite your source. I don't think they're your words because of the length of the post and the sharp contrast in writing styles- particularly your usually ever present capitalization of the words GOD, CHRIST, HOLY GHOST, etc.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Maxel

[LittleNipper]

A few points of confusion/discrepancy for me:

'I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth'

I do not subscribe to the doctrine of ex nihilo, or the doctrine that God made everything out of nothing. I believe God organized preexisting matter into the Earth. I have no qualms with the term 'Maker', but knowing a little bit about the Creeds (and I speak of the Nicene and later creeds when I say 'Creeds'), I know the doctrine of ex nihilo is supported by them.

'And in one Lord Jesus Christ... God of God, Light of Light, very God of God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father...'

I don't believe Christ is of one substance with the Father. I believe the two are separate beings. I also am hesitant about accepting the words 'God of God, Light of Light, very God of God'- what do they mean? I'm sure someone can explain those phrases, but right now they are no more than philosophical mumbo jumbo to me. I could guess at a meaning, but I wouldn't want to assume the Nicene Creed says something it actually doesn't.

'And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son...'

I don't believe the Holy Ghost is Lord and Giver of Life, as I understand the term. I believe the Holy Ghost's role is to testify of truth and carry revelation and the word of God to the hearts of man. If one understands 'Life' as the word of God, then yes I guess he is the Giver of Life; however I understand 'Life' as meaning the physical forces that allow us to eat, breathe, live, repent, etc.- forces I believe work under the influence and direction of the Light of Christ, which emanates from Christ Himself and not the Holy Ghost.

'And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.'

I fully agree with this part. I find it ironic that many Protestants who accept this creed and its intellectual progeny do not believe in an apostolic Church, and catholic only in the sense that all believers are the body of Christ with no need for uniformity of practice, doctrine, etc. I have noted your belief about the 'apostolic' concept, but I personally reject the idea that God would found his Church in one manner, then let it continue to grow in another manner- I see it as planting a carrot but expecting a pear to grow from it. I fear the refusal to believe in apostolic succession comes from the belief that Christ's church could still be found on Earth after the general time of the New Testament (with recorded apostles)- that is, the lack of belief in living apostles arises from tradition instead of revealed scripture.

My biggest problem with the Nicene Creed itself is that it cements the tradition that God's word is to be interpreted by the philosophical lens of men in councils, and not the Biblical example of prophets, seers, and revelators. My big problems with the theology of the early Christian Creeds mainly begins with the Athanasian Creed, and lies largely in the fact that many accept the Creeds as truth on par with the Bible

I do not disagree with you here. In fact, I most decidedly agree with you- the Creeds are a guide, not scripture themselves. As all guides, they can be wrong. There are verses in the Bible that lend credence to the ideas found in the Nicene and other Creeds. However, I adamantly reject the idea that the Trinity and other doctrines set forth in the creeds are the only interpretation supported by scripture. When I read the creeds, I see the language and understanding of men, not God. I see the representatives of Athens, not Jerusalem.

Authoritative, prophetic interpretation of scripture is just as important as having authoritative, prophetic scripture itself. Otherwise, sundry heresies and blasphemies could draw 'support' from scripture.

Also- where did you find the information you posted in post # 10? Drawing from outside sources is fine, but you need to cite your source. I don't think they're your words because of the length of the post and the sharp contrast in writing styles- particularly your usually ever present capitalization of the words GOD, CHRIST, HOLY GHOST, etc.

I found the information at a Lutherian site. I found it helpful and nearly in full agreement with what I hold to be my Christian stand.

[Hemidakota]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

Why bother with the creed of apostates and pagans, when we have the opportunity to be a first-hand witness of the Godhead...

[LittleNipper]

Why bother with the creed of apostates and pagans, when we have the opportunity to be a first-hand witness of the Godhead...

But surely you must see an issue. If I understand correctly, Mormons do not believe GOD created all matter. I get the impression that they believe that GOD used existing matter.

Now, I assume that this determination came from Joseph Smith. If that is the case, might you not see that if he is in error and is contrary to what the Bible implies, then Mr. Smith is very likely mistaken in other areas.

And if he is mistaken, of what inerrant values might he be trusted to provide? You do not see this at least as a small concern?

[bytor2112]

But surely you must see an issue. If I understand correctly, Mormons do not believe GOD created all matter. I get the impression that they believe that GOD used existing matter.

Now, I assume that this determination came from Joseph Smith. If that is the case, might you not see that if he is in error and is contrary to what the Bible implies, then Mr. Smith is very likely mistaken in other areas.

And if he is mistaken, of what inerrant values might he be trusted to provide? You do not see this at least as a small concern?

How do you know you are not in error? Do you consult a scholar in Hebrew and Greek language, as you implied in another thread was necessary, each time you read from the Bible?

I would turn to a brother in CHRIST who might understand the original Hebrew/Greek for clarity.

-Little Nipper Edited February 23, 2009 by bytor2112

[LittleNipper]

How do you know you are not in error? Do you consult a scholar in Hebrew and Greek language, as you implied in another thread was necessary, each time you read from the Bible?

-Little Nipper

I do not know Greek or Hebrew; however, my pastor knows both and my wife knows some Greek. I will read several English translations where I have a question on a verse's meaning. But most importantly, I do ask for GOD to help my understanding and show me the way (enlightenment), as I study HIS WORD...

[Maxel]

I found the information at a Lutherian site. I found it helpful and nearly in full agreement with what I hold to be my Christian stand.

You still need to cite your source... let me cite where I found it (might be another website, but it's still the same thing). The Triple Cure: Jesus Christ - Our Prophet, Priest and King

I do not know Greek or Hebrew; however, my pastor knows both and my wife knows some Greek. I will read several English translations where I have a question on a verse's meaning. But most importantly, I do ask for GOD to help my understanding and show me the way (enlightenment), as I study HIS WORD...

So what do you do when someone on the other side of the disagreement does the exact same thing and has the exact same resources at his/her disposal?

[jadams_4040]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

Why would God tell of his son if it were himself? there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to do this; None.:)

[RobertP]

I have scanned over but not read all responses. I am LDS. I believe the doctrine. It begs for more, really, though. Or I'm missing something. Every time I think I have it down I come back to Abinidi. The Father because of the Spirit, the Son because of the Flesh? Does that and more have a place in all of this? So, the Nicene creed bothers me less than it used to, but maybe I don't believe it exactly. I clearly believe they are separate, but one. Read my blog from my home page to see some of the places this kind of thinking has taken me if interested.

Also, for a time I was told it was strange that Born Again Christians used a non biblical term, the Trinity. Then I noticed we have a tendency to use a non Canonical term, Godhead, not a term found in any of our own scriptures. Is this fair to point out? Then Jesus says he is 'one' with the Father. Then we say things like one in purpose, which is true, but is that really all? We are speaking about the Infinite, the Possessor of all things. For me, I look at what Jesus said. They are one, and He invites us to be one with Them. He does not explain. It begs for pondering to me. So for me, I leave it, look at it, ponder it, and it takes me places. I wouldn't try to say or answer. For that matter, Jesus didn't. Not at that time. The words ring true. They are 'one'. Our own scriptures have a passage, 'the mystery of godliness, how great it is'. Should we expect to answer that briefly, or if we think we know the answer, can we say in a blink, or are we closed off to more because we know already? Browser has crashed, can't look it up right now and will go to bed when I post. Rats. Sorry for no references.

[Hemidakota]

But surely you must see an issue. If I understand correctly, Mormons do not believe GOD created all matter. I get the impression that they believe that GOD used existing matter.

Now, I assume that this determination came from Joseph Smith. If that is the case, might you not see that if he is in error and is contrary to what the Bible implies, then Mr. Smith is very likely mistaken in other areas.

And if he is mistaken, of what inerrant values might he be trusted to provide? You do not see this at least as a small concern?

Can man create a pen out of nothing? No! The manufactures take the available materials and thus create a pen. Elements that form us as Spirit, as mortals, have been before HIM. No if that is the case, where did these elements come from?

Joseph Smith was correct. If any man or woman have witnessed the creation as Moses, Abraham, and many others did, would see what Joseph saw for himself. It is your own interruption of what is being mentioned within the scriptures needs to be further evaluated and require some pondering, then ask for a confirmation from the Holy Ghost of the divinity of truth. And let me remind you, these men did write the whole account, if they did, you would be shocked.

There are many gems in these accounts that members in the church do not even realized.

LittleNipper, if I am in error, then my friend the Holy Spirit [ghost] is also in error.

[LittleNipper]

How do you know you are not in error? Do you consult a scholar in Hebrew and Greek language, as you implied in another thread was necessary, each time you read from the Bible?

-Little Nipper

I pray for guidance and understanding. I compare and research Bible references and various English translations for a considered understanding. Bible study is very important.

Bible reading is okay...

[LittleNipper]

Can man create a pen out of nothing? No! The manufactures take the available materials and thus create a pen. Elements that form us as Spirit, as mortals, have been before HIM. No if that is the case, where did these elements come from?

Joseph Smith was correct. If any man or woman have witnessed the creation as Moses, Abraham, and many others did, would see what Joseph saw for himself. It is your own interruption of what is being mentioned within the scriptures needs to be further evaluated and require some pondering, then ask for a confirmation from the Holy Ghost of the divinity of truth. And let me remind you, these men did write the whole account, if they did, you would be shocked.

There are many gems in these accounts that members in the church do not even realized.

LittleNipper, if I am in error, then my friend the Holy Spirit [ghost] is also in error.

Man is not GOD. GOD created while man actually constructs, builds, assembles from what GOD provides.. When it come to the Bible, man only wrote what GOD wanted and not what they wanted... The theme of the Bible is; however, CHRIST; what HE created, HIS human linage, HIS purpose, HIS desires, HIS love. Is is not about man apart from man's relationship with GOD's desires.

Edited February 24, 2009 by LittleNipper

[bytor2112]

Man is not GOD. GOD created while man actually constructs, builds, assembles from what GOD provides.. When it come to the Bible, man only wrote what GOD wanted and not what they wanted... The theme of the Bible is; however, CHRIST; what HE created, HIS human linage, HIS purpose, HIS desires, HIS love. Is is not about man apart from man's relationship with GOD's desires.

How do you know man only wrote what God desired? The theme of the Book of Mormon is Christ and I know that it is from God? Question is....how do you know?

[Dr T]

Why would God tell of his son if it were himself? there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to do this; None.:)

I'm not sure what u are asking here but it looked like you saying that the Father is not the Son. I agree, The Father is not the Son. What did u mean here sir?

[Dr T]

Can man create a pen out of nothing? No! The manufactures take the available materials and thus create a pen.

Hi Hemi,

I would also say that God created out of nothing because he is God and not man.

[darrel]

If I may add my 2 cents here. I believe that we have a very simple answer. Either Mormons are right and everyone else is wrong or mormons are wrong along with everyone else.

My belief is that God revealed himself to His prophets in all ages including this one so we could know what we must do and believe. I believe through the witness of the Spirit of the Holy Ghost that God and Jesus Christ gave Joseph Smith the answer to this delimma that has been plagueing the world religions for thousands of years

Pearl Of Great Price Joseph Smiths History Verse 16 through 20:

16....I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which decended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages whos brightness and glory defy all discription, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other- This is my My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get posession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt, that; "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having the form of godeliness, but they deny the power thereof".

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. ...

This answers the question for me that the nicean creed is a manmade creed and is not accepted by God. Either Joseph Smith perpetuated the greatest fraud on mankind or Mormonism is true.

I believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true Church restored by Jesus Christ in the last days, through Joseph Smith, to lead all his children home to a loving Heavenly Father.

Edited February 25, 2009 by darrel

[LittleNipper]

Why would God tell of his son if it were himself? there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to do this; None.:)

The FATHER is not the SON. The SON is not the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT is not the FATHER. However, together THEY are LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. The HOLY SPIRIT could not come to JESUS's disciples until JESUS went to heaven. JESUS did not know the day or hour HE was to return except the FATHER. Individual beings ---- together GOD in TOTAL.

[darrel]

The FATHER is not the SON. The SON is not the HOLY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT is not the FATHER. However, together THEY are LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. The HOLY SPIRIT could not come to JESUS's disciples until JESUS went to heaven. JESUS did not know the day or hour HE was to return except the FATHER. Individual beings ---- together GOD in TOTAL.

How many Christian denominations are there? Over 3000 at my last count. Confusing and hard to explain this concept.

[LittleNipper]

How many Christian denominations are there? Over 3000 at my last count. Confusing and hard to explain this concept.

And yet, you do not see yours as simply another one? I do not worship a denomination. My salvation is not in the hands of any group. What is in a name?

[Dr T]

The fundamentals are the same but the little other things cause differences imo

[darrel]

And yet, you do not see yours as simply another one? I do not worship a denomination. My salvation is not in the hands of any group. What is in a name?

The main difference in my belief is origions and authority. Divisions and branches make up fundimentalist christianity. Our Christian Beliefs and teachings are direct from God the Father and Jesus Christ through His restored Gospel truths. This was done under the direct authority and through Gods Prophet called in our time to correct the erroneous teachings arising from an apostasy from Christs teachings and perpetuated from the nicean counsel.

Many Christians are sincere in their faith and truly believe they are saved. Gods house is a house of order and not a house of confusion. His plan is spacific and well defined. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto eternal life and fiew there be that find it. One Faith, One Lord and One Baptism.

I know I will never convince anyone of these truths. Only the Holy Ghost bearing witness will open the hearts of the true seeker of truth, will be effectual.

[AnthonyB]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Nicene creed of its self. If people choose to believe that it is essential to rephrase God inspired truths from God given scripture in terms of greek philosophical thinking then more power to them. I'm glad they really understand "ousia", "hypostasis", "substantia", "essentia" and they can navigate the fact that the words used in latin and greek are somewhat garbled when translated to the other.

Where I have a problem is the hateful, repressive, toxic use people have made of the creeds. That they were created to be used as tools of imperial interference with personal belief. That they have led to the execution and persuction of so many, for no crime except believing and thinking differently.

Living in western civilization in the 21st C, it is easy to forget just how creeds were used. We today mostly except the right of an individual to seek out God and worship Him as they believe. For someone in the 1820's, having just come through horific wars and persecution, where refusal to conform to the state religion in some countries meant execution or in the majority persecution. In 1820, even in England one had to conform to anglicalism just to attend university. (Not to mention forced tithes to support the anglican priest and church even if they choose not to attend)

This was also a time when churches split into endless division over minor issues with each having its own creed to justify their own stand and wholeheartedly despised those who they differed so little from that today we fail to grasp that it could ever have been an issue.

[LittleNipper]

The main difference in my belief is origions and authority. Divisions and branches make up fundimentalist christianity. Our Christian Beliefs and teachings are direct from God the Father and Jesus Christ through His restored Gospel truths. This was done under the direct authority and through Gods Prophet called in our time to correct the erroneous teachings arising from an apostasy from Christs teachings and perpetuated from the nicean counsel.

Many Christians are sincere in their faith and truly believe they are saved. Gods house is a house of order and not a house of confusion. His plan is spacific and well defined. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto eternal life and fiew there be that find it. One Faith, One Lord and One Baptism.

I know I will never convince anyone of these truths. Only the Holy Ghost bearing witness will open the hearts of the true seeker of truth, will be effectual.

And GOD you believe waited almost 1500 years? That in itself seem most odd, do you not imagine?