A Delayed Welcome

[Jamie123]

For years I've had a kind of love/hate relationship with Mormonism.

Until my mid-20's I was only vaguely aware that the church existed (it's not really a major religion in the UK), but then I was visited by two nice-looking American girls who began to give me the "Missionary Discussions" - until they discovered I was not the "golden contact" they had hoped for. Even then they kept visiting me - even offering to start the discussions afresh - but I knew it was going nowhere and I was just wasting their time as well as my own.

Let me try to explain my mindset at that time: Firstly I didn't believe in God. Secondly, I was beset with what I then regarded as highly-serious "sins of the flesh". Thirdly, I was terrified that if there was (by any chance) a God, He must be very angry with me - both for not believing in Him and for my aforementioned sins. Consequently I didn't much want to pray about the Book of Mormon, or anything else for that matter. And having the sisters tell me "don't be afraid" never did a thing to calm my fears.

On the subject of sisters and "elders" (I still can't get over them being called that - most of them are barely 18!), I've sensed that many of them are not really happy in their work. I'm not talking about the sisters who first came to my house (they seemed to shine with joy in what they were doing) but others I've met over the years. For some it comes out as sarcasm, for others snappiness and aggressively defensive attitudes. I know better now than to blame them for it (given the strict rules they have to live by) and I always make a special point of being nice to them. But in the past I've got into some very unpleasant arguments: Some missionaries (as well as many regular members) seem to regard it as a personal insult that I don't accept that they "know" that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is "true".

Example:

[Elder] I take it you know that we're a unique restoration of Christ's original Church?

[Me] I know that's what you believe you are.

[Elder] We don't just believe. We know!

There's no good answer to that. The world is full of people who claim to "know" things - most of which contradict each other. (The 9/11 terrorists would probably have told you they knew they were going straight to heaven....not, of course, that I'm comparing Mormons to Islamic Fundamentalists!). The conversation merely turns into an epistemological debate about the difference between "knowing" and "believing", how we can distinguish "revealed truth" from "wishful thinking", and ends with "You are NOT a humble person!", "You are NOT worthy!", "The message is not for you!" (and other unpleasant things besides). But on one occasion it went differently: An elder told me he thought I already had a testimony and was in denial about it - a very scary thought which pushed me away from Mormonism for a long time.

It was shortly after this that I went to my local Anglican parish church. It was an Anglo-Catholic church (where the vicar was always addressed as "Father Michael") which I'd been avoiding for the past 2 or 3 years. I was sort-of brought up C of E, but had spent some time drifting between churches (Methodist, Baptist etc., having various "conversion experiences" along the way) before dropping out of mainstream Christianity altogether and calling myself an "agnostic". I had issues with theological concepts which I didn't really understand at the time (and still struggle with now). For a while Mormonism had seemed to offer a "way out" of these dilemmas, which was partly what made it seem so attractive. But anyway, the words of the Mass, the hymn-singing, the sheer beauty of the church itself seemed to weave a spell around me. To be fair, it wasn't just the service at St. Botolph's which changed me: I'd recently read a book called "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis, which gave me a different outlook on Christianity. (I'd read books by Lewis before then, but none of them hit me the way that one did.) I've also noticed that many Mormons seem to be C.S. Lewis fans, and that puzzles me a little too: Though Lewis was an Anglican, he never pressed people to join any specific church, but concentrated on what he called "Mere Christianity" - the core of beliefs which all Christians adhere to whatever their denomination.

Anyway, that's only part of my story. I've been through many changes since then: I've read much, taken on new ideas, thrown off old ones. Found out the old ideas were true after all: Gone around in circles. I've married and had children, but I still worship as an Anglican. I have to some extent mended my arguments with Mormonism, and I have a fondness for the LDS church. I've become friends with many Mormon people, including my sister-in-law who lives in Maine. Quite why I'm posting here on this website, I'm not sure: Maybe God is showing me something new, or maybe I am just wanting to relive part of my past. If Mormon teaching is false, it is best left alone (as Dumbledore said "It does not do to dwell on dreams...") but that's not to say I don't cherish the friendship I've known from many LDS members over the years.

God bless,

Jamie.

P.S. I called this message A Delayed "Welcome". I used the wrong word: I should have said "Introduction", but it won't let me edit the title.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Jamie123
little more info

[Hemidakota]

Jamie, I know many members use this term 'I KNOW' out of content. For me, if this term is used, these are them who are 'first hand witnesses' of the glory of the Godhead. That also included, the Holy Ghost confirmed to them of the divine witnessed of the scriptures that testifies that Jesus is the very Christ.

[aspenmgy]

For years I've had a kind of love/hate relationship with Mormonism.

Until my mid-20's I was only vaguely aware that the church existed (it's not really a major religion in the UK), but then I was visited by two nice-looking American girls who began to give me the "Missionary Discussions" - until they discovered I was not the "golden contact" they had hoped for. Even then they kept visiting me - even offering to start the discussions afresh - but I knew it was going nowhere and I was just wasting their time as well as my own.

Let me try to explain my mindset at that time: Firstly I didn't believe in God. Secondly, I was beset with what I then regarded as highly-serious "sins of the flesh". Thirdly, I was terrified that if there was (by any chance) a God, He must be very angry with me - both for not believing in Him and for my aforementioned sins. Consequently I didn't much want to pray about the Book of Mormon, or anything else for that matter. And having the sisters tell me "don't be afraid" never did a thing to calm my fears.

On the subject of sisters and "elders" (I still can't get over them being called that - most of them are barely 18!), I've sensed that many of them are not really happy in their work. I'm not talking about the sisters who first came to my house (they seemed to shine with joy in what they were doing) but others I've met over the years. For some it comes out as sarcasm, for others snappiness and aggressively defensive attitudes. I know better now than to blame them for it (given the strict rules they have to live by) and I always make a special point of being nice to them. But in the past I've got into some very unpleasant arguments: Some missionaries (as well as many regular members) seem to regard it as a personal insult that I don't accept that they "know" that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is "true".

Example:

[Elder] I take it you know that we're a unique restoration of Christ's original Church?

[Me] I know that's what you believe you are.

[Elder] We don't just believe. We know!

There's no good answer to that. The world is full of people who claim to "know" things - most of which contradict each other. (The 9/11 terrorists would probably have told you they knew they were going straight to heaven....not, of course, that I'm comparing Mormons to Islamic Fundamentalists!). The conversation merely turns into an epistemological debate about the difference between "knowing" and "believing", how we can distinguish "revealed truth" from "wishful thinking", and ends with "You are NOT a humble person!", "You are NOT worthy!", "The message is not for you!" (and other unpleasant things besides). But on one occasion it went differently: An elder told me he thought I already had a testimony and was in denial about it - a very scary thought which pushed me away from Mormonism for a long time.

It was shortly after this that I went to my local Anglican parish church. It was an Anglo-Catholic church (where the vicar was always addressed as "Father Michael") which I'd been avoiding for the past 2 or 3 years. I was sort-of brought up C of E, but had spent some time drifting between churches (Methodist, Baptist etc., having various "conversion experiences" along the way) before dropping out of mainstream Christianity altogether and calling myself an "agnostic". I had issues with theological concepts which I didn't really understand at the time (and still struggle with now). For a while Mormonism had seemed to offer a "way out" of these dilemmas, which was partly what made it seem so attractive. But anyway, the words of the Mass, the hymn-singing, the sheer beauty of the church itself seemed to weave a spell around me. To be fair, it wasn't just the service at St. Botolph's which changed me: I'd recently read a book called "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis, which gave me a different outlook on Christianity. (I'd read books by Lewis before then, but none of them hit me the way that one did.) I've also noticed that many Mormons seem to be C.S. Lewis fans, and that puzzles me a little too: Though Lewis was an Anglican, he never pressed people to join any specific church, but concentrated on what he called "Mere Christianity" - the core of beliefs which all Christians adhere to whatever their denomination.

Anyway, that's only part of my story. I've been through many changes since then: I've read much, taken on new ideas, thrown off old ones. Found out the old ideas were true after all: Gone around in circles. I've married and had children, but I still worship as an Anglican. I have to some extent mended my arguments with Mormonism, and I have a fondness for the LDS church. I've become friends with many Mormon people, including my sister-in-law who lives in Maine. Quite why I'm posting here on this website, I'm not sure: Maybe God is showing me something new, or maybe I am just wanting to relive part of my past. If Mormon teaching is false, it is best left alone (as Dumbledore said "It does not do to dwell on dreams...") but that's not to say I don't cherish the friendship I've known from many LDS members over the years.

God bless,

Jamie.

P.S. I called this message A Delayed "Welcome". I used the wrong word: I should have said "Introduction", but it won't let me edit the title.

Welcome! Two things: Most Elders are between 19 and 21.

Second: "If Mormon teaching is false, it is best left alone..."

...but if it's right....OH SNAP

[Guest missingsomething]

Well Jamie... Welcome... not everyone here is LDS and even the LDS dont all agree... but one thing that does seem to be present is that everyone tries to be respectful and to try not to content but rather discuss.

Seek out Capital_Ideal - he's an interesting cookie and would probably be someone you like. I like him... hes great.. and he's not a member!

[Jamie123]

Thanks :) I hope it didn't seem like I was being disrespectful. I certainly didn't intend to seem so. I too want to discuss intelligently, and not get into unpleasant and hurtful arguments.

The point I was making is that that discussion needs common ground. If LDS and Non-LDS are going to have any meaningful communication, the ground-rules cannot state that LDS doctrine is definitely true and make it an insult to suggest otherwise. (Not that I think that's what this site is about - but some LDS-people I've met would want it that way.) Each side needs to meet the other where they are, not where they would want them to be.

[Dr T]

Welcome to this site :)

[Palerider]

welcome to the site....:)