Divorce and Remarriage - What happens to Guilty?

[Jim108]

OK, I must admit I enjoy the debate and respect all of you and your opinions. My point is this. Who disciplines who from an Earthly point of view. Lets say the Earth has three people. Larry Moe and Curly. All are wretched. When Larry disciplines Moe, Moe disciplines Curly and Curly disciplines Larry. ...and so the circle. It never ends. Who do you discipline and who disciplines you. When we sin we often times are disciplined by the result of that sin. When we commit adultry we take a chance for numerous ugly consequences and more then likely we will be stung by one or more of them. This in a way is discipline but it is caused by our own doing. We learn a hard lesson. When religion gets into the forgivness business it becomes earthly, man made with all of its wretchedness. .....and the religion empowers wretched men and God deminishes. If a religion really wanted to discipline its flock it would have no time for anything else as all of its members would be disciplined all the time. But we know that can not happen. So what do we do. The religion elevates certain people to higher levels. These people run the show and are above such policy concerning discipline. ...and corruption seeps in. No, it is not up to man to discipline man (from the religious faction). ...and it is not up to man to interfere with the forgiveness process of God. Believe in the Cross. Now outside of religion, the law of the land does have the right to punish (jail and so on) If you kill, God can forgive, but you will be going to jail. But it is not the religious body that will carry it out. Jim

Edited March 16, 2009 by Jim108

[Vort]

Lets say the Earth has three people. Larry Moe and Curly. All are wretched.

What does that mean?

Does it make a difference if Moe is called as a prophet of God and ordained by the hand of God to that position?

When religion gets into the forgivness business it becomes earthly, man made with all of its wretchedness.

How much money do you suppose it costs a Mormon to buy forgiveness from his bishop?

No, it is not up to man to discipline man (from the religious faction). ...and it is not up to man to interfere with the forgiveness process of God.

Suppose "the forgiveness process of God" specifies that a man act as voice for God's will. What of your model then?

[Madriglace]

OK, I must admit I enjoy the debate and respect all of you and your opinions. My point is this. Who disciplines who from an Earthly point of view. Lets say the Earth has three people. Larry Moe and Curly. All are wretched. When Larry disciplines Moe, Moe disciplines Curly and Curly disciplines Larry. ...and so the circle. It never ends. Who do you discipline and who disciplines you. When we sin we often times are disciplined by the result of that sin. When we commit adultry we take a chance for numerous ugly consequences and more then likely we will be stung by one or more of them. This in a way is discipline but it is caused by our own doing. We learn a hard lesson. When religion gets into the forgivness business it becomes earthly, man made with all of its wretchedness. .....and the religion empowers wretched men and God deminishes. If a religion really wanted to discipline its flock it would have no time for anything else as all of its members would be disciplined all the time. But we know that can not happen. So what do we do. The religion elevates certain people to higher levels. These people run the show and are above such policy concerning discipline. ...and corruption seeps in. No, it is not up to man to discipline man. ...and it is not up to man to interfere with the forgiveness process of God. Believe in the Cross. Jim

No one is above the laws of the Lord ... is a Bishop or Stake President or Propeht was in need of this part of the process they would be the same as anyone else. You have to realize that we believe that our leaders are called of God and like it or not they must fulfill their callings ... all of it. A disciplinary hearing is very difficult for those who must convene it ... it is a heart breaking thing to see those they consider literal brothers and sister in such pain. Generally the leaders don't go out and dig someone up to discipline ... the people temselves realize when they need the extra help due to the nature of what they have done and go to their leaders. I have been there ... it did not go to a hearing but my Bishop was in tears none the less. Generally we are our own worst judges which is as it should be but we also believe that the Lord's house is a house of order and there is a way in which these things are to be done. These proceedings are held under the direction of the Lord and with a great deal of prayer. In the LDS church a diciplinary hearing is not interfering but assisting. The Savior set it up this way to help us be the best we can be and to make a way back if we will be humble and repent and move forward. Believe me ... it is a good thing ... not easy by any means but what a relief to see it done. I felt like I could float ... I had been beating myself up for many many years ... it came time to forgive myself and I needed the help to do that ... my Savior had forgiven me long ago. We have to learn to take it in the manner it is offered.

[prisonchaplain]

We've diverted a bit from the narrow scope of the OP, but since it's my string...why not? Two example of non-LDS church discipline should help show where I am coming from.

#1. A clergy person in my fellowship is found to have commited a moral failure (i.e. sexual sin). S/he is given the option of resigning ministerial credentials or of undergoing a rehabilitation process. If s/he chooses the latter, public ministry discontinues for one to two years. During that time the offender engages in substantial Christian counseling, as well as peer-assessment. The end result is successful re-entry into ordained ministry. As FYI, we clergy also have access to 24/7 telephone counseling, and, if needed, residential counseling for the whole family BEFORE anything happens.

#2. A parishioner seeks counsel/approval from her pastor for a divorce. The reason she gives for the divorce is "I'm not in love anymore. My needs are not being met. We have irreconciable differences. We're really not compatible." The pastor counsels her that divorce is not approved biblical in such cases, and that he cannot approve. She proceeds with the divorce on a Thursday, and on the Sunday following is nevertheless front and center in the choir, performing public ministry, representing her church's best. Why? She's already shared with key members about the pastor's "cruel counsel," and cold-heartedness, and it's been made clear that if any attempt to publicly discipline her is made, it is the pastor who will be condemned.

IMHO, a theology that says "No one can judge but God!" leads to spiritual and moral chaos.

[bytor2112]

"The kingdom of God may, indeed must, discipline its members"

Oh, I see, when Jesus forgives it is still up to man to punish. I think that empowers man and not God. ...and when man is empowered corruption is soon to follow. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Gee I think I read that somewhere around here.

Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of all humankind.......on conditions of repentance. I dislike words like discipline. When someone in our church commits a serious sin, his/her ecclesiastical leader helps the person through the repentance process. This can involve anything from being asked to not partake of the sacrament for a period of time or even being excommunicated from membership in the church. All of these things are designed to help the transgressor repent and ultimately save their soul. They are done in love and compassion.

Remember, the Savior satisfied the demands of justice and made mercy available to all who will repent and have faith in Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of repentance.....it is the gospel of change.