Oh Say, What is Truth

[MikeUpton]

" But mom, I told you the truth, Susie ate the cookies." Said billy as he wiped the crumbs from his mouth.:)

Hordak, I think this well sums up your feeling about truth that I have read so far. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that instead of discrediting what a person says when they speak something that is not the truth, you are choosing to discredit the truth itself, to make it subjective and not absolute.

[hordak]

Hordak, I think this well sums up your feeling about truth that I have read so far. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that instead of discrediting what a person says when they speak something that is not the truth, you are choosing to discredit the truth itself, to make it subjective and not absolute.

Truth is simply a stronger form of opinion, whether or not people know it is opinion, and Fact is something that really exist or happened. Something that can be proven. Truth is subjective and not absolute.

But this is my "truth" so yours may differ

[FunkyTown]

But this is my "truth" so yours may differ

That's your opinion, Hordak, not your truth. The freakin' DICTIONARY disagrees with you, as do the majority on here. Just accept that you're wrong. Definitions are decided by majority through their interpretation. You can assign an arbitrary meaning to words until the cows come home, but when you say something - The majority of people will believe they understand what you're saying when, in fact, they do not because they aren't mind readers.

It's okay to back away and say, "Hey! I wasn't aware that was the definition. I guess that's what truth is."

[MikeUpton]

Truth is simply a stronger form of opinion, whether or not people know it is opinion, and Fact is something that really exist or happened. Something that can be proven. Truth is subjective and not absolute.

But this is my "truth" so yours may differ

So it seems that is exactly what is going on then. Most of us are finding that your definition of truth is not in fact a definition of truth, but the literal definition of belief.

belief definition | Dictionary.com

Our contention is that truth is not synonymous with belief. One thing I love about this church, is the ability we have to find the knowledge of its truthfulness by the power of the Holy Ghost. We don't ask anyone to believe something merely because "the bishop says its so" or believe something merely because "the prophet says its so" or even believe something is correct because "the bible says its so" or the "book of mormon says its so" but we are each given the charge to discover the truthfulness of these things on our own by the power of the Holy Ghost. Once this is done, and we've gained a testimony of the truthfulness of this work, we know for ourselves and not because someone told us, that these things (the teachings of the church) are true.

Edited March 11, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Traveler]

So tell me the truth are you tall? Young? Nice?

Truth is personal. Or people overuse the word.

She truly is nice...

He's a fast runner, it's true...

Next time you tell someone "the truth" think about if it is fact. Could you prove it?

Truth is opinion given without the knowledge of of it being so.

I agree that many think notions and opinions are truth but the problem with such thinking is in the perception model. The only truth in such thinking is that it is true that the thinker believes it to be so. Real truth is independent of perception despite that many think that truth is dependent on perception.

Hard core science informs us that perception is not real but a “belief” of what we are trying to interpret as real. For example: What we see is not a true image but a creation and interpretation made in our brain of an image made on rods and cones in our eyes. What we feel is not real but a perception created by electrical impulses on our brain as sub atomic fields react with each other creating a sensation of touching.

What many call proof is nothing more than being convinced to perceive something as others perceive it. This is the great flaw of science and religion. So the question is: “how can we know that what we understand is truth and not just that we have convinced ourselves that we understand a truth but we have been mislead by our 5 dominant means of perception?”

The Traveler

[PastorBob]

Truth is already the case; only the lie needs to be dropped to see it. If you can question or doubt it, then, it is not self-evident, and either twisted or created by the mind.

[MikeUpton]

I would add, Hordak, that your main concern for agreeing on our definition of truth seems to be:

If there is a truth out there, how is one to recognize it for what it is? Who is to say what is real, and what is not real? Who is to say any one belief is true? Can't they all be true?

I'd highly recommend communication with God, and trust in him to find these things for yourself. When you've heard the sweet voice of the Spirit testifying of truth, and you feel confident that even if your perception of truth is not perfect, you at least have a good idea of what truth is, it really helps.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

just to put my $.02 in....truth, as defined by a buddhist, is that which is believed to be, not necessarily what really is (fact).

[hordak]

That's your opinion, Hordak, not your truth. The freakin' DICTIONARY disagrees with you, as do the majority on here. Just accept that you're wrong. Definitions are decided by majority through their interpretation. You can assign an arbitrary meaning to words until the cows come home, but when you say something - The majority of people will believe they understand what you're saying when, in fact, they do not because they aren't mind readers.

It's okay to back away and say, "Hey! I wasn't aware that was the definition. I guess that's what truth is."

I'm speaking of Truth as in Philosophy not a dictionary term which by the way means nothing. According to Websters (4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group) Ingrid Newkirk is a Prophet. I would imagine most here hold a different view and would never call her buy that title regardless of its dictionary definition.

I can see how this (what is the definition of is) can get confusing.

But here is what i was trying to say.

Truth: (to Hordak) the wife was bothering my while trying to do my homework last night.

Truth: (to the misses) I was trying to help hordak relax while he was doing homework last night

Fact: The misses rubbed hordaks shoulders while he was doing homework last night.

I use the term truth because so many use the word truth where the term belief is more appropriate.

[hordak]

just to put my $.02 in....truth, as defined by a buddhist, is that which is believed to be, not necessarily what really is (fact).

The more i read your post the more i think i might be Buddhist:)

[hordak]

So it seems that is exactly what is going on then. Most of us are finding that your definition of truth is not in fact a definition of truth, but the literal definition of belief.

belief definition | Dictionary.com

Our contention is that truth is not synonymous with belief. One thing I love about this church, is the ability we have to find the knowledge of its truthfulness by the power of the Holy Ghost. We don't ask anyone to believe something merely because "the bishop says its so" or believe something merely because "the prophet says its so" or even believe something is correct because "the bible says its so" or the "book of mormon says its so" but we are each given the charge to discover the truthfulness of these things on our own by the power of the Holy Ghost. Once this is done, and we've gained a testimony of the truthfulness of this work, we know for ourselves and not because someone told us, that these things (the teachings of the church) are true.

You could use the word belief. I use the term truth because many pass beliefs of as truth. This is in a secular or religions frame of reference.

Muslims say Mohamed was the last Prophet of Allah and Jesus was just another prophet.

To them this is truth, Some have such a strong witness that this is true they will die for it. To a non Muslim it is their belief. It could become fact if when we die we discover The Koran was correct but until then it is belief.

The Church (LDS) isn't the only religion that believes in spiritual confirmation.I do think they put more emphasis on it then others however I would be willing to bet most people involved in religion have had some sort of spiritual experience telling them it was the right thing to do.

[Connie]

The more i read your post the more i think i might be Buddhist:)

I'd have to agree with this assessment as it is hard to believe a follower of Christ dismissing Christ's own definition of the word.

[MikeUpton]

Our contention is that truth is not synonymous with belief. One thing I love about this church, is the ability we have to find the knowledge of its truthfulness by the power of the Holy Ghost. We don't ask anyone to believe something merely because "the bishop says its so" or believe something merely because "the prophet says its so" or even believe something is correct because "the bible says its so" or the "book of mormon says its so" but we are each given the charge to discover the truthfulness of these things on our own by the power of the Holy Ghost. Once this is done, and we've gained a testimony of the truthfulness of this work, we know for ourselves and not because someone told us, that these things (the teachings of the church) are true.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."- Buddha

Something similar to what I said, although at the end I've read that the Dalai Llama says there is no such thing as one absolute truth, there being a multiplicity of ways to do things. Which is apparently where Buddhists are draw their "Truth=Belief" equation.

Where our church differs is not in rejecting an idea that there are multiple ways to do things on a day to day secular level for the most part, but when it comes to the truth of god, the important things dealing with our salvation, there is one true way, and that way is taught by living prophets, however the truth of their teachings must be found through our personal communion with God, rather than simply our own reason alone, or blind acceptance that the prophets are correct.

My point is, to find truth, we must trust in God, rather than in our own reasoning, which at best is profoundly weak.

You could use the word belief. I use the term truth because many pass beliefs of as truth. This is in a secular or religions frame of reference.

I believe that it is okay for us to proclaim our beliefs as true since we have given adequate provision to be able to test those truths. And in testing those truths ourselves, we have found them to be correct. We ask no one to blindly accept. I do believe that people in other churches have spiritual experiences and become closer to God.

Edited March 11, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Guest missingsomething]

Well.. i think there are different definitions of truth. To me, truth overall must be based with facts and have an honest and sincere theory behind it. I do not believe there are half truths... thats just a long-term for "lie".

AS for spiritual truths, I believe these are concepts by which the holy ghost witnesses to you.

[Justice]

Truth: (to Hordak) the wife was bothering my while trying to do my homework last night.

Truth: (to the misses) I was trying to help hordak relax while he was doing homework last night

Fact: The misses rubbed hordaks shoulders while he was doing homework last night.

The fact in your example is also truth. The truths in your example are perceptions, beliefs or opinions.

Truth cannot fail. Truth cannot be wrong.

Opinions can fail. Opinions can be wrong.

Now, it's also true to say Hordak felt bothered. Hordak's wife wanted to help Hordak.

All you have to do is rewaord your comparisons to get your truth.

You can't state them as opinions and make them truth.

Remember, those professors you learned this definition of truth from in school don't even know what truth is themselves.

[hordak]

I'd have to agree with this assessment as it is hard to believe a follower of Christ dismissing Christ's own definition of the word.

I also define Racca differently because while the concept of the talk might still apply word usage changes.

If you think a follower of Christ can't dismiss his definition of a word you should really check this out

69 ¶ Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

[MikeUpton]

I also define Racca differently because while the concept of the talk might still apply word usage changes.

If you think a follower of Christ can't dismiss his definition of a word you should really check this out

Simply put, Peter lied. Doesn't mean he disagreed with his teaching, but he was disobedient to it.

Edited March 12, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Connie]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - And Peter Went Out and Wept Bitterly

The above article is from Gordon B. Hinckley, the below is an excerpt therefrom:

I should like to take your thoughts back to that most dreadful night in and about Jerusalem when the Last Supper was concluded. Jesus and His disciples left the city and went over to the Mount of Olives. Knowing that His terrible ordeal was at hand, Jesus spoke with those He loved. And He said to them: “All ye shall be offended [that is, shall fall away] because of me this night. …

“Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

“Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

“Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee” (Matt. 26:31, 33–35).

There followed shortly thereafter the terrible agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, and then the betrayal. As the procession moved to the court of Caiaphas, “Peter followed … unto the high priest’s palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end” (Matt. 26:58).

While the mockery of that trial was going on and Jesus’ accusers spit on Him, and buffeted Him, and smote Him with the palms of their hands, a damsel, seeing Peter, said: “Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

“But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

“And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

“And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

“And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

“Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

“And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly” (Matt. 26:69–75; emphasis added).

What pathos there is in those words! Peter, affirming his loyalty, his determination, his resolution, said that he would never deny. But the weakness of the flesh overtook him, and under the pressure of accusation, his resolution crumbled. Then, recognizing his wrong and weakness, “he went out, and wept.”

[Janice]

That's your opinion, Hordak, not your truth. The freakin' DICTIONARY disagrees with you, as do the majority on here. Just accept that you're wrong. Definitions are decided by majority through their interpretation. You can assign an arbitrary meaning to words until the cows come home, but when you say something - The majority of people will believe they understand what you're saying when, in fact, they do not because they aren't mind readers.

It's okay to back away and say, "Hey! I wasn't aware that was the definition. I guess that's what truth is."

Who says the dictionary is right? That definition of truth is nothing more then the opinion of the lexicographer who wrote the dictionary.

After scanning this thread, I tend to agree more with Hordak.

[Janice]

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

is absolute truth, and it doesn't matter whether anyone believes it or not. It doesn't matter if anyone says it or not. It doesn't matter what kind of evidence is used against it.

You and I, and most people on this forum agree on this point. But, if you asked a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist or an atheist, truth to them would be very different.

Is there an example of Truth on which all humanity can agree?

Janice

[Janice]

Our contention is that truth is not synonymous with belief. One thing I love about this church, is the ability we have to find the knowledge of its truthfulness by the power of the Holy Ghost... we know for ourselves and not because someone told us, that these things (the teachings of the church) are true.

While I agree with you, Mike, on using personal inspiration and the Holy Ghost to find "personal" truth, the idea of using it to find "absolute" truth makes me nervous. But as I am typing this, I am finding it very hard to put into words why I feel this way.

Here's my best shot:

Once we claim to be the possessor of absolute truth, we then set ourselves up to take the position that I am right and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. The hubris of this position flies in the face of all that I believe and have been taught about humility. It causes us to close our mind to other "truths" that may be out there. If I am right and you (used loosely) are wrong, then the conversation is over.

I might be willing to agree that absolute, unchangeable, unconquerable, unbendable, universal truths do exist, and while I have and will continue to strive to get closer and closer to these truths via the methods you mentioned (prayer, study, Holy Ghost), I don't think I will ever claim to have obtained them or to fully understand them. As soon as I do, I fear I will have committed the ultimate form of pride.

Janice

EDIT: My thoughts on this are very malleable, and I welcome any well thought out challenges to what I've said.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Janice

[Connie]

The below is from this: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Truth—<i>and More</i>

Of course, the truth isn’t “relative.” It is only man’s understanding of the truth that is “relative.”

Researchers realize that only a small sample of the totality of “absolute” truth is known. Therein lies the allurement of research. There are few rewards as exciting as the discovery of truth, through research well performed.

But truth proclaimed by Deity is as absolute as Deity, who defined such truth as “knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come.” (D&C 93:24.)

The glory of truth is revealed in these words of the Master: “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31–32.)

Truth literally makes us free from the bondage of ignorance.

By Elder Russell M. Nelson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve

The below is from this: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Absolute Truth

This true way of life is not a matter of opinion. There are absolute truths and relative truths. The rules of dietetics have changed many times in my lifetime. Many scientific findings have changed from year to year. The scientists taught for decades that the world was once a nebulous, molten mass cast off from the sun, and later many scientists said it once was a whirl of dust which solidified. There are many ideas advanced to the world that have been changed to meet the needs of the truth as it has been discovered. There are relative truths, and there are also absolute truths which are the same yesterday, today, and forever—never changing. These absolute truths are not altered by the opinions of men. As science has expanded our understanding of the physical world, certain accepted ideas of science have had to be abandoned in the interest of truth. Some of these seeming truths were stoutly maintained for centuries. The sincere searching of science often rests only on the threshold of truth, whereas revealed facts give us certain absolute truths as a beginning point so we may come to understand the nature of man and the purpose of his life.

The earth is spherical. If all the four billion people in the world think it flat, they are in error. That is an absolute truth, and all the arguing in the world will not change it. Weights will not suspend themselves in the air, but when released will fall earthward. The law of gravity is an absolute truth. It never varies. Greater laws can overcome lesser ones, but that does not change their undeniable truth.

We learn about these absolute truths by being taught by the Spirit. These truths are “independent” in their spiritual sphere and are to be discovered spiritually, though they may be confirmed by experience and intellect. (See D&C 93:30.) The great prophet Jacob said that “the Spirit speaketh the truth. … Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.” (Jacob 4:13.) We need to be taught in order to understand life and who we really are.

God, our Heavenly Father—Elohim—lives. That is an absolute truth. All four billion of the children of men on the earth might be ignorant of him and his attributes and his powers, but he still lives. All the people on the earth might deny him and disbelieve, but he lives in spite of them. They may have their own opinions, but he still lives, and his form, powers, and attributes do not change according to men’s opinions. In short, opinion alone has no power in the matter of an absolute truth. He still lives. And Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Almighty, the Creator, the Master of the only true way of life—the gospel of Jesus Christ. The intellectual may rationalize him out of existence and the unbeliever may scoff, but Christ still lives and guides the destinies of his people. That is an absolute truth; there is no gainsaying.

President Spencer W. Kimball

The below is from this: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Healing Your Damaged Life

When others give you advice, have you ever said, “I just don’t believe the way you do. Those are your standards and your principles. I have my own”? Please understand that no one can change truth. Rationalization, overpowering self-interest, all of the arguments of men, anger, or self-will cannot change truth. Satan knows that, so he tries to create an atmosphere where one unwittingly begins to feel that he can not only choose what to do, but can determine what is right to do. Satan strives to persuade us to live outside truth by rationalizing our actions as the right of choice.

But our Eternal Father defined truth and established what is right and wrong before the creation of this earth. He also fixed the consequences of obedience and disobedience to those truths. He defended our right to choose our path in life so that we would grow, develop, and be happy, but we do not have the right to choose the consequences of our acts. Those who willfully, consistently disobey His commandments will inevitably learn that truth. Joseph Smith was inspired to record, “When we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” (D&C 130:21.)

Please understand, no one has the privilege to choose what is right. God reserved that prerogative to Himself. Our agency does allow us to choose among alternate paths, but then we are bound to the consequence God has decreed. Later, if we don’t like where the path takes us, the only out is through repentance.

Our Heavenly Father gave us truth, some as statements of cause and effect. We call them commandments. They guide our life to happiness. He knew that Satan would try to persuade some to live without fixed standards in life so that decisions would be based on current circumstances, what appears convenient, or what provides the greatest personal return. In this way, Satan removes the power of truth from one’s life so he can take that soul captive.

Elder Richard G. Scott

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

The below is from this: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

Pride is a very misunderstood sin, and many are sinning in ignorance. (See Mosiah 3:11; 3 Ne. 6:18.) In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby. (See 2 Ne. 4:15; Mosiah 1:3–7; Alma 5:61.)

Most of us think of pride as self-centeredness, conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, or haughtiness. All of these are elements of the sin, but the heart, or core, is still missing.

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled. (See Alma 38:12; 3 Ne. 12:30.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. (See Hel. 12:6.) They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

President Ezra Taft Benson

[FunkyTown]

Who says the dictionary is right? That definition of truth is nothing more then the opinion of the lexicographer who wrote the dictionary.

After scanning this thread, I tend to agree more with Hordak.

That is definitely the attitude of the Wikipedia generation: That everyone's opinion on every subject is of equal value.

The truth is that this simply is not the case; If a thousand voices spoken by a thousand people with no clue drown out the voice of the single informed individual, it doesn't make that individual any less correct.

That, sadly, is a lesson that the Prophets have learned time and time again. Truth is not subjective, Janice: A man doesn't know that his house is on fire is no less dead for having fallen asleep within in blissful ignorance. It will never be subjective, though our interpretations of it may be.

[Connie]

“Indeed, evil is not only erotic; it is erratic, since it must entice so many in such a multitude of ways. Thus, persuade a man possessed of one truth that he has all truth. Convince another that there is no truth whatsoever. Let another believe that all truths are of equal importance to man. Notice that the result is the same in all cases: the searching for truth stops. Allow one person to think that no matter what he does, it is not wrong. Tell another that he has done wrong, but it is not serious. Persuade another that he has erred so gravely that there is no hope for him. Again, the result is the same: the sinning continues. The devil is a liar and a cheat!” -Neal A. Maxwell

[hordak]

Let me see if i can explain this once and for all.

The members of the LDS church have the Holy ghost to confirm spiritual truths to them.Being on this board and others you can see that even members of the same church have different "truths" reviled to them. Now the church likes to emphasis this confirmation from the Holy ghost more then others (or perhaps it seems more then others because you are LDS) but it is not unique to the LDS church. The terminology may be different but spiritual confirmation is a big deal in other Christian churches and i imagine all religion,though i am most familiar with Christianity. No one becomes Christian because the read the bible and liked it. Personally I love Greek and Norse Mythology but i wouldn't begin to worship Zeus or Odin because the idea of Valhalla of the Ellesan fields sounds nice.

Lets take a look at one of our non LDS friends here Prison Chaplin.

Not only does he serve God in the typical Christan way but has devoted his livelihood to serving others and bring them to Christ. He teaches the "lowest and most dangerous" of society and if that isn't Christ like I don't know what is. I don't know personally but i believe (if he is still here he can let us know) choosing that career path was not taken lightly.I am willing to bet that he prayed and received some sort of spiritual confirmation before dedicating his life to that. If we know if something is good and from God by its fruits it is a safe bet to say this is from God. This is his truth. This is where God wants him.

Your truth is different but no more true.

I believe that God would realize there are square, triangle, and circle holes. But for some reason his people, for the most part, seem to think their square peg should fit in every hole.

As a father I tell my children what they need to know about any given subject and recognize that because they are different this information will be given to them differently. I love them, I care for them, I want the same things for them but give them different truths based on their situations, age ,knowledge etc.

It stands to reason IMO that God would do the same thing.